Pre-Trib Rapture and Premillennialism are False Doctrines

[KJV1611]

That is a misapplication of this Scripture. What is this verse talking about? Death and the end of death. And it is further telling us that in the New Heavens and the New Earth there will be no death. "Till the heavens be no more" refers to the present atmospheric and stratospheric heavens, which will vanish away.

As Paul said "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death" (1 Cor 15:26), and when Death and Hades are metaphorically cast into the Lake of Fire, that is the end of death and the abolishing of Hades (Rev 20). Next we see the New Heavens and the New Earth (Rev 21).

According to the verese it's talking about a person dying and not being raised from death until the heavens be no more.

Where do you see the end of death in that verse?

Job 14:12 KJV
So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

 

[delirious]

I don't know of anything in the bible that speaks of a resurrection in AD 70 but the bible does say that many of the old testament saints that slept were raised at Christ's resurrection.

You are referring to Matthew 27: 50-52, "And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.
Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised."

Whenever we evaluate Scripture I think it is fair to say that we have to consider the context in order to understand what it means.

The "veil being torn from top to bottom" and "saints who had fallen asleep were raised" is a reference to what Jesus said about Himself all through the gospels. John 11: 25 sums it up when Jesus says, "I am the resurrection and the life."

You could say when He died on the cross that He secured the resurrections of all who trust in Him. I think Matthew is confirming that in these verses and as proof God raised some saints at that time.

Does this somehow invalidate Job 14: 12 because a few saints were raised? What about Lazarus?

1 Corinthians 15: 23, "But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming."

Paul writes this entire chapter to combat people saying there is no resurrection. Why didn't he mention the saints that were raised when Jesus died or Lazarus? He only mentioned Christ the firstfruits and then those who are His at His coming.

We don't want to use an exception in Matthew and try and say it somehow invalidates what Job 14: 12 is saying.

The context of Job 14: 12 is talking about all of mankind, generally speaking, will not be raised until the heavens are no more. Premillennialism with its 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth contradicts what Scripture teaches.

Everyone is raised the last day. That is the Great White Throne judgement when Rev 20: 11 tell us, "the heavens and earth fled away and there is no place for them". This fits perfectly with Job 14: 12.

 

[delirious]

So per Job 14:12 the "heavens were no more" when Christ was raised from the dead because the old testament saints awoke and walked the streets of Jerusalem.

One other point I wanted to bring up. Lazarus died again. We know this was possible because the Jews plotted to kill both him and Jesus. So Lazarus is still waiting for the resurrection like the rest of mankind.

We are not told if the saints in Matthew 27 died again but I think it is safe to say they probably died like Lazarus. I will admit this is an ASSUMPTION on my part which I loathe but I think Scripture backs me up.

Hebrews Chapter 11 is the great hall of faith chapter. After talking about the great Old Testament saints all throughout that chapter what does the last verse say?

Hebrews 11: 40, "God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made PERFECT apart from us."

The resurrection is when just men are made perfect. Lazarus, nor the saints raised at Jesus' death, were made perfect.

Job 14: 12 also says, "THEY shall not awake, nor be roused out of their sleep." The context makes it clear with the word THEY is referring to "man" in the first part of the verse and that it is referring to mankind in general.

 

[KJV1611]

You are referring to Matthew 27: 50-52, "And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.
Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised."

Whenever we evaluate Scripture I think it is fair to say that we have to consider the context in order to understand what it means.

The "veil being torn from top to bottom" and "saints who had fallen asleep were raised" is a reference to what Jesus said about Himself all through the gospels. John 11: 25 sums it up when Jesus says, "I am the resurrection and the life."

You could say when He died on the cross that He secured the resurrections of all who trust in Him. I think Matthew is confirming that in these verses and as proof God raised some saints at that time.

Does this somehow invalidate Job 14: 12 because a few saints were raised? What about Lazarus?

1 Corinthians 15: 23, "But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming."

Paul writes this entire chapter to combat people saying there is no resurrection. Why didn't he mention the saints that were raised when Jesus died or Lazarus? He only mentioned Christ the firstfruits and then those who are His at His coming.

We don't want to use an exception in Matthew and try and say it somehow invalidates what Job 14: 12 is saying.

The context of Job 14: 12 is talking about all of mankind, generally speaking, will not be raised until the heavens are no more. Premillennialism with its 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth contradicts what Scripture teaches.

Everyone is raised the last day. That is the Great White Throne judgement when Rev 20: 11 tell us, "the heavens and earth fled away and there is no place for them". This fits perfectly with Job 14: 12.

I believe every word in the bible is right and it means exactly what it says. How many heavens are there? What does Job mean by heavens in Job 14:12. Is it the literal place where God resides, is it the universe, is it the kingdom of heaven that was taken from the Jews and given to the gentiles?

These are all questions that have to be asked because the fact that dead bodies will not be raised out of their sleep is a given, it's not vague in any way. The vague part of the verse is what does Job mean by heavens.

Not here to argue one way or the other just giving my view.

I'm curious though, do you not think Ezekiel 37 is the reserrection of the Old Testament saints?

Ezekiel 37:2-10 KJV
And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.
[3] And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord God , thou knowest.
[4] Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the Lord .
[5] Thus saith the Lord God unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
[6] And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the Lord .
[7] So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.
[8] And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.
[9] Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord God ; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
[10] So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.

 

[KJV1611]

One other point I wanted to bring up. Lazarus died again. We know this was possible because the Jews plotted to kill both him and Jesus. So Lazarus is still waiting for the resurrection like the rest of mankind.

We are not told if the saints in Matthew 27 died again but I think it is safe to say they probably died like Lazarus. I will admit this is an ASSUMPTION on my part which I loathe but I think Scripture backs me up.

Hebrews Chapter 11 is the great hall of faith chapter. After talking about the great Old Testament saints all throughout that chapter what does the last verse say?

Hebrews 11: 40, "God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made PERFECT apart from us."

The resurrection is when just men are made perfect. Lazarus, nor the saints raised at Jesus' death, were made perfect.

Job 14: 12 also says, "THEY shall not awake, nor be roused out of their sleep." The context makes it clear with the word THEY is referring to "man" in the first part of the verse and that it is referring to mankind in general.

Let me ask you this question first and I will come back and comment on your post. The bible says in Acts that Jesus will return the same same way he left (paraphrase lol).

In Jude we are told that Jesus will return with Ten Thousands of his saints. If he returns the same way he left, doesn't that mean he left with Ten Thousands of his saints?

 

[KJV1611]

One other point I wanted to bring up. Lazarus died again. We know this was possible because the Jews plotted to kill both him and Jesus. So Lazarus is still waiting for the resurrection like the rest of mankind.

We are not told if the saints in Matthew 27 died again but I think it is safe to say they probably died like Lazarus. I will admit this is an ASSUMPTION on my part which I loathe but I think Scripture backs me up.

Hebrews Chapter 11 is the great hall of faith chapter. After talking about the great Old Testament saints all throughout that chapter what does the last verse say?

Hebrews 11: 40, "God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made PERFECT apart from us."

The resurrection is when just men are made perfect. Lazarus, nor the saints raised at Jesus' death, were made perfect.

Job 14: 12 also says, "THEY shall not awake, nor be roused out of their sleep." The context makes it clear with the word THEY is referring to "man" in the first part of the verse and that it is referring to mankind in general.

We have no biblical record that Lazarus died again and the bible doesn't say whether or not the resurrected saints were perfected or not.

Hebrews 11:39-40 KJV
And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
[40] God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Hebrews 11 is saying that the old testament saints died having not recieved the promise so that they would not be perfected before us.... this is why they died and went to the bossom of Abraham instead of being absent from the body, present with the Lord. This could be debated agreed, but we can come back to that later possibly.

 

[delirious]

These are all questions that have to be asked because the fact that dead bodies will not be raised out of their sleep is a given, it's not vague in any way. The vague part of the verse is what does Job mean by heavens.

Job 14: 12, if taken by itself, someone might be able to argue that the "heavens" means something other than the physical universe. I think this is special pleading to try and get around what the verse appears to be saying.

Let us ask ourselves, what verses in the Bible describe the end of the heavens? In my original post I cited some.

2 Thess 1: 7-10 talk about Jesus returning in FLAMING FIRE to destroy enemies of God and resurrect saints. From these verse it appears it is the same day. The last day.

2 Peter 3 talks about the HEAVENS BEING DISSOLVED WITH FIRE and then we find a "new heavens and earth". Same language as 2 Thess.

Revelation 20: 11 Talks about the "earth and heaven fleeing away and there is no more place for them". Immediately, we find people being resurrected and judged and a "new heavens and earth" in the very next verse of Rev 21: 1. So let us ask ourselves...

What is common to all these verses? It appears the PHYSICAL HEAVENS are destroyed and ALL MANKIND stands before God at the Great White Throne judgment.

That fits the timing of what Job 14: 12 is saying.

I'm curious though, do you not think Ezekiel 37 is the reserrection of the Old Testament saints?

Prophetic passages like this one are tough. I like to base my doctrine as much as possible off EXPLICIT teachings in the Bible. We are forced to make ASSUMPTIONS with this passage because of its apocalyptic language.

Some think it is a regathering of national Israel. Others think it is people being raised to spiritual life by the gospel. Others the resurrection of Old Testament saints or even the final general resurrection. I'm sure there are other interpretations. It's a tough passage and I don't have an official position myself.

 

[delirious]

Let me ask you this question first and I will come back and comment on your post. The bible says in Acts that Jesus will return the same same way he left (paraphrase lol).

You are referring to Acts 1: 11. I think the angels were saying that Jesus will come back visibly in a cloud just like He left. Which Jesus Himself confirms when He tells people He will return in a cloud with power and great glory. Nothing more.

In Jude we are told that Jesus will return with Ten Thousands of his saints. If he returns the same way he left, doesn't that mean he left with Ten Thousands of his saints?

The 10,000 saints you are referring to is from Jude 14. It is not believers. It is a reference to angels which you can discover if you do a word study on it. Jesus talks about His angels being the reapers who gather the wheat and tares at His return in His parables.

 

[Locutus]

Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Acts 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

Acts 2:19 And I will show wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

Acts 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

Acts 2:19-20 based on Joel is figurative/prophetic language as is known from other such usage in the OT.

Peter claims these things would occur in the "last days' - John stated he was in the last hour of the last days;

1 John 2:18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour.

Ignoring these facts is where all the futurist theologies fail.

 

[KJV1611]

Job 14: 12, if taken by itself, someone might be able to argue that the "heavens" means something other than the physical universe. I think this is special pleading to try and get around what the verse appears to be saying.

Let us ask ourselves, what verses in the Bible describe the end of the heavens? In my original post I cited some.

2 Thess 1: 7-10 talk about Jesus returning in FLAMING FIRE to destroy enemies of God and resurrect saints. From these verse it appears it is the same day. The last day.

2 Peter 3 talks about the HEAVENS BEING DISSOLVED WITH FIRE and then we find a "new heavens and earth". Same language as 2 Thess.

Revelation 20: 11 Talks about the "earth and heaven fleeing away and there is no more place for them". Immediately, we find people being resurrected and judged and a "new heavens and earth" in the very next verse of Rev 21: 1. So let us ask ourselves...

What is common to all these verses? It appears the PHYSICAL HEAVENS are destroyed and ALL MANKIND stands before God at the Great White Throne judgment.

That fits the timing of what Job 14: 12 is saying.

In the verses below it appears as though the physichal heaven and earth are established forever. Not saying it is so but there are quite of few verses like this so I'm not sure that all the verses you posted do actually refer to the literal heavens and earth.

And He built His sanctuary like the heights, Like the earth which He has established forever.(Psalm 78:69)

His seed shall endure forever, And his throne as the sun before Me; It shall be established forever like the moon, Even like the faithful witness in the sky.”(Psalms 89:36-37)

You who laid the foundations of the earth, So that it should not be moved forever,(Psalm 104:5)

Praise Him, you heavens of heavens, And you waters above the heavens! Let them praise the name of the LORD, For He commanded and they were created. He also established them forever and ever; He made a decree which shall not pass away.(Psalm 148:4-6)

 

[delirious]

We have no biblical record that Lazarus died again and the bible doesn't say whether or not the resurrected saints were perfected or not.

This is true. This is why I don't like to make assumptions but I think Scripture backs my position. These resurrections were exceptions, and for lack of better terminology, basically don't count in regards to what Job 14: 12 is saying. When Job says "man" and "they" i think the context means he is speaking generally of mankind.

Most likely Lazarus died again as well as the saints resurrected at Jesus' death. Hebrews 11: 40 says everyone is made perfect at the same time which matches 1 Corinthians 15.

1 Cor 15: 52-53, "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."

If Lazarus was perfected along with the resurrected saints at Jesus' death then where are they? Acts 1: 11 says Jesus went up in a cloud by Himself. Plus, if they were perfected, this makes Hebrews 11: 40 a lie which we know can't be true.

So I think using Scripture the assumption that I was forced to make at the beginning is validated and Lazarus and those saints died again and are waiting for the general resurrection like everyone else.

 

[KJV1611]

You are referring to Acts 1: 11. I think the angels were saying that Jesus will come back visibly in a cloud just like He left. Which Jesus Himself confirms when He tells people He will return in a cloud with power and great glory. Nothing more.



The 10,000 saints you are referring to is from Jude 14. It is not believers. It is a reference to angels which you can discover if you do a word study on it. Jesus talks about His angels being the reapers who gather the wheat and tares at His return in His parables.

From my study I've found that ten usually points to the law and old testament saints. I've never read that angels are called saints, where do you get that from?

 

[Nehemiah6]

Where do you see the end of death in that verse?

... they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

Sleep being a metaphor for death, since there will be no more death, there will also be no more resurrection. Rev 20:5,12 speaks of the final resurrection -- that of the unsaved or unrighteous dead:

But the rest of the dead [the unrighteous] lived not again until the thousand years were finished... And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God...

This is the end of death on earth: And death and hell [Hades] were cast into the lake of fire... (v 14).

 

[KJV1611]

This is true. This is why I don't like to make assumptions but I think Scripture backs my position. These resurrections were exceptions, and for lack of better terminology, basically don't count in regards to what Job 14: 12 is saying. When Job says "man" and "they" i think the context means he is speaking generally of mankind.

Most likely Lazarus died again as well as the saints resurrected at Jesus' death. Hebrews 11: 40 says everyone is made perfect at the same time which matches 1 Corinthians 15.

1 Cor 15: 52-53, "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."

If Lazarus was perfected along with the resurrected saints at Jesus' death then where are they? Acts 1: 11 says Jesus went up in a cloud by Himself. Plus, if they were perfected, this makes Hebrews 11: 40 a lie which we know can't be true.

So I think using Scripture the assumption that I was forced to make at the beginning is validated and Lazarus and those saints died again and are waiting for the general resurrection like everyone else.

That would mean Lazarus died twice which would go against Hebrews 9:27 wouldn't it?

Hebrews 9:27 KJV
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Where are the resurrected saints today? They were the cloud of witnesses that ascended with Christ. Again the bible says Christ left like he would return.

 

[delirious]

Ignoring these facts is where all the futurist theologies fail.

Your system hinges largely on "last days", "last hour", "time is at hand" references.

I have already provided Scripture that appears to refute the logical conclusions of your system.

The resurrection has not happened yet. The new heavens and earth have not happened yet. The judgment has not happened yet.

Keep beating that dead horse Batman. (By the way, I liked your Batman pic on that response earlier. That was cool.)

 

[KJV1611]

Sleep being a metaphor for death, since there will be no more death, there will also be no more resurrection. Rev 20:5,12 speaks of the final resurrection -- that of the unsaved or unrighteous dead:

But the rest of the dead [the unrighteous] lived not again until the thousand years were finished... And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God...

This is the end of death on earth: And death and hell [Hades] were cast into the lake of fire... (v 14).

I agree to that and I agree that there will be a resurrection of the damned but where does Job 14:12 say anything about the end of death?
Also Job isn't going to contadict any other scripture and other scripture isn't going to contradict Job. Job in no uncertain terms says that they shall not wake until the heavens pass.

Like I said earlier, the sleep (death) and awaking is not vague at all, the "heavens" is vague because it can mean many many different things.

 

[KJV1611]

Your system hinges largely on "last days", "last hour", "time is at hand" references.

I have already provided Scripture that appears to refute the logical conclusions of your system.

The resurrection has not happened yet. The new heavens and earth have not happened yet. The judgment has not happened yet.

Keep beating that dead horse Batman. (By the way, I liked your Batman pic on that response earlier. That was cool.)

Why do you think these guys were saying the resurrection was already past? What event happened to make them preach that message?

2 Timothy 2:18 KJV
Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

 

[delirious]

And He built His sanctuary like the heights, Like the earth which He has established forever.(Psalm 78:69)

His seed shall endure forever, And his throne as the sun before Me; It shall be established forever like the moon, Even like the faithful witness in the sky.”(Psalms 89:36-37)

You who laid the foundations of the earth, So that it should not be moved forever,(Psalm 104:5)

Praise Him, you heavens of heavens, And you waters above the heavens! Let them praise the name of the LORD, For He commanded and they were created. He also established them forever and ever; He made a decree which shall not pass away.(Psalm 148:4-6)

All four of these passages you quoted use the Hebrew word "olam". It is Strong's concordance word number 5769. The Hebrew word sometimes means forever like we understand it but also means "long duration" Please look it up and research it for yourself. Don't take my word for it.

Rev 21: 1, "Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away." If you take those verses above to rigidly you have a contradiction with this verse.

 

[KJV1611]

Prophetic passages like this one are tough. I like to base my doctrine as much as possible off EXPLICIT teachings in the Bible. We are forced to make ASSUMPTIONS with this passage because of its apocalyptic language.

Some think it is a regathering of national Israel. Others think it is people being raised to spiritual life by the gospel. Others the resurrection of Old Testament saints or even the final general resurrection. I'm sure there are other interpretations. It's a tough passage and I don't have an official position myself.

I don't know, to me it's obvious that Ezekiel is talking about raising dead physical bodies from the grave and putting ligaments, muscles and skin on them. In light of the Old Testament saints being raised at Christs resurrection I just don't see how anyone could spiritualize the passage. IDK, to me it's straight forward a prophecy of the resurrection of the saints at Christs resurrection.

 

[delirious]

From my study I've found that ten usually points to the law and old testament saints. I've never read that angels are called saints, where do you get that from?

The word is "hagios" Strong's concordance word number 40. It means "holy". How did Christ describe His return?

Matthew 25: 31, "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory."

Matthew 13: 39-41, "The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. The Son of Man will SEND OUT HIS ANGELS, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness."

Nowhere does Christ ever describe coming back to earth with His church. It's always with the angels to get His church and destroy the wicked.