Pre-Trib Rapture and Premillennialism are False Doctrines

[iamsoandso]

Let me paste all of Revelation 11: 18 here for clarity:

The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.

I am not sure where I quoted "were destroyed" in my post #209. I don't see it. If I did, I misquoted. I do see in post #209 where I quoted the last line of verse 18 that talks about the negative judgment for unbelievers and I quoted that line accurately.

The point I was trying to make is that everyone is about to be judged and either rewarded or destroyed at the sounding of the seventh trumpet. This can only happen at the Great White Throne judgment and appears to prove that there is no millennium.

lol, ok I Wondered if the tense was future to Rev.11:18 because of it's usage in strongs Geek 1311 thanks for clarifying https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/11.htm

 

[delirious]

And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

This is merely a PROPHETIC STATEMENT. It is speaking of a future event as though it has been already fulfilled, since from God's perspective that is exactly the case

It is speaking of a future event as if it is ALREADY FULFILLED? That Scripture does not say that. It says exactly what it says. When the seventh trumpet is sounded the kingdoms of the world become God's.

Now we will look at a similar (and corresponding) statement from Daniel's prophecy, which was given in approximately 600 BC and appeared to being fulfilled at that time, but speaking of a far distant event:
I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man [CHRIST] came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, [GOD THE FATHER] and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. (Dan 7:13,14)

Where does it say in Daniel 7 that Daniel thought that prophecy was about to be fullfilled in his time? It doesn't. An assumption made by you.

As noted above it is NOT what happens at the seventh trumpet, but WHAT IS PROPHESIED at the 7th trumpet.

This is a distinction without a difference. A logical fallacy. Things that are prophesied at the seventh trumpet happen at the seventh trumpet.

1. The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ...
From Daniel's prophecy above, it is clear that after the second coming of Christ, all earthly kingdoms will be abolished so that Christ set's up the Kingdom of God on earth.
There are multiple prophecies to support this, but we will take just on from another prophetic book: Behold, a king shall reign in righteousness, and princes shall rule in judgment. (Isa 32:1) Who is this King who shall reign in righteousness? Is it not the Lord Jesus Christ at the Millennium? And in order to reign in righteousness, is it not imperative that all unrighteousness be abolished from the earth? And are not all the nations and kingdoms of this world presently unrighteous? So the only way that Christ can reign in righteousness is to bring every nation and kingdom to that state of righteousness which He required.

You went to Isaiah 32 and believe this means Christ reigns on earth for 1,000 years. The whole paragraph is riddled by ASSUMPTIONS you make.

You also quoted Rev 19 and 20 extensively and think that this somehow refutes my post about the seventh trumpet. You didn't answer any of the Scripture I provided in my post #209. Nothing.

Another problem you have is you think the book of Revelation is chronological. It is not. I showed in post #208 that the whole book recapitulates itself. That's why Rev 11: 15-19 and Rev 20: 9-15 can happen at the same time. Because they do.

Providing Isaiah 32, Rev 19 and 20 and Daniel 7 does not answer the Scripture I presented in Rev 11: 15-19 that appears to prove a 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth is impossible. ESPECIALLY VERSE 18 which you did not even address.

I don't know why you resort to insults either. It does not further your case. Amillenialism remains true as your post didn't refute anything or even address the Scripture I presented.

 

[iamsoandso]

It is speaking of a future event as if it is ALREADY FULFILLED? That Scripture does not say that. It says exactly what it says. When the seventh trumpet is sounded the kingdoms of the world become God's.



Where does it say in Daniel 7 that Daniel thought that prophecy was about to be fullfilled in his time? It doesn't. An assumption made by you.



This is a distinction without a difference. A logical fallacy. Things that are prophesied at the seventh trumpet happen at the seventh trumpet.



You went to Isaiah 32 and believe this means Christ reigns on earth for 1,000 years. The whole paragraph is riddled by ASSUMPTIONS you make.

You also quoted Rev 19 and 20 extensively and think that this somehow refutes my post about the seventh trumpet. You didn't answer any of the Scripture I provided in my post #209. Nothing.

Another problem you have is you think the book of Revelation is chronological. It is not. I showed in post #208 that the whole book recapitulates itself. That's why Rev 11: 15-19 and Rev 20: 9-15 can happen at the same time. Because they do.

Providing Isaiah 32, Rev 19 and 20 and Daniel 7 does not answer the Scripture I presented in Rev 11: 15-19 that appears to prove a 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth is impossible. ESPECIALLY VERSE 18 which you did not even address.

I don't know why you resort to insults either. It does not further your case. Amillenialism remains true as your post didn't refute anything or even address the Scripture I presented.

lol, You said that Rev.11:15-19 and Rev.20:9-15 could happen at the same time,but Rev.20:1-8 are they prior to them?

 

[Locutus]

1. The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ...
From Daniel's prophecy above, it is clear that after the second coming of Christ, all earthly kingdoms will be abolished so that Christ set's up the Kingdom of God on earth.

There are multiple prophecies to support this, but we will take just on from another prophetic book: Behold, a king shall reign in righteousness, and princes shall rule in judgment. (Isa 32:1) Who is this King who shall reign in righteousness? Is it not the Lord Jesus Christ at the Millennium? And in order to reign in righteousness, is it not imperative that all unrighteousness be abolished from the earth? And are not all the nations and kingdoms of this world presently unrighteous? So the only way that Christ can reign in righteousness is to bring every nation and kingdom to that state of righteousness which He requires.

It means nothing of the sort, "the kingdoms of this world" became Christ's when the whore city of Jerusalem and apostate Israel was destroyed in the war of 66 - 70 AD thus losing its "special status" as a nation unto God.

That's why John in his vision sees no more sea (the gentile nations as separate from the nation of Israel) as they are all now Christ's - that does not mean they are all subject to him.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Rev 22:1 And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Any in the nations can "take the water of life freely" which is the holy spirit spoken of here:

John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

This is were the amill and premill positions fall apart - as I said they don't correctly identity the whore of Babylon therefore the theology" is fawlty.

If you have received the holy spirit then yer already drinking from the water of life.

 

[delirious]

lol, You said that Rev.11:15-19 and Rev.20:9-15 could happen at the same time,but Rev.20:1-8 are they prior to them?

The amillennialist believes that Rev 20: 1-8 is the entire age we are currently living in. It spans Christ's first coming to His second coming. I can give further details about those verses if you are interested or have questions.

 

[delirious]

It means nothing of the sort, "the kingdoms of this world" became Christ's when the whore city of Jerusalem and apostate Israel was destroyed in the war of 66 - 70 AD thus losing its "special status" as a nation unto God.

I've already used Scripture multiple times to refute the claims you have made earlier in this thread. I am not going to re-hash them here again with you. You want to be a full-preterist, be my guest. Scripture proves the conclusions of your system to be false. The resurrection of the dead has not happened. The new heavens and earth have not happened. The judgment has not happened etc..

 

[KJV1611]

Let me paste all of Revelation 11: 18 here for clarity:

The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.

I am not sure where I quoted "were destroyed" in my post #209. I don't see it. If I did, I misquoted. I do see in post #209 where I quoted the last line of verse 18 that talks about the negative judgment for unbelievers and I quoted that line accurately.

The point I was trying to make is that everyone is about to be judged and either rewarded or destroyed at the sounding of the seventh trumpet. This can only happen at the Great White Throne judgment and appears to prove that there is no millennium.

Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

The hour is coming and NOW IS (not 2000 years later) when the dead shall hear his voice. Obviously at least to me this verse is referring to the resurrection of the Old Testament saints that rose with Christ.

 

[Absolutely]

The amillennialist believes that Rev 20: 1-8 is the entire age we are currently living in. It spans Christ's first coming to His second coming. I can give further details about those verses if you are interested or have questions.

Then you HAVE to place satan as bound and separated from any involvement in hindering mankind.
Which means the trib came and went,as well as the AC and the fiery hailstones and flying scorpions,and the mark of the beast are just spiritual analogies.

Can't make that jump.
Not sytematic theology.
Amil carries alongside itself not one,but many impossibilities.

 

[Absolutely]

I would also like to see a premillennialist try and answer this:



I think my last reply proves that a 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth is impossible according to Scripture. I would like to throw out a challenge. I would love to see a premillennialist try and prove my last reply #209 wrong.

I like to have my theological positions challenged by people with different views to see if they will hold up under fire. I believe the amillennial view is what the Bible teaches on eschatology.

The reason you haven't proven anything is that the mil is laid out for you in rev 20. As is what precedes it in rev 19.
Not to mention the amil impossibilities i laid out earlier.

The amil doctrine involves intense transposing of daniel and other books. Rev included.
The amil handbook is about 2 or 3 inches thick.
I was a part of an amil church. It ,amil,distorts ones entire doctrinal view of the entire bible. ( only amils "know" what is "really" being said)
They are and claim elite status.
.....Amoung themselves.
I never bought it.

 

[Absolutely]

In my reply #209 I put forth Scripture that appears to prove a 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth is not possible. Were you going to try and refute what I said in that post? Did you see me distorting the Scripture somehow in that post?

See my post #228.
I don't and never will see anyone disproving rev 19 &20

 

[Absolutely]

Iow,your end times view effects the way you look at the entire bible

 

[Absolutely]

Revelation 11 comes long before Revelation 20, but it upholds the Millennium rather than the opposite. So let's look at your specious argument:

And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

This is merely a PROPHETIC STATEMENT. It is speaking of a future event as though it has been already fulfilled, since from God's perspective that is exactly the case. Now we will look at a similar (and corresponding) statement from Daniel's prophecy, which was given in approximately 600 BC and appeared to being fulfilled at that time, but speaking of a far distant event:
I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man [CHRIST] came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, [GOD THE FATHER] and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. (Dan 7:13,14)

Making such NONSENSICAL STATEMENTS does not help your credibility.

As noted above it is NOT what happens at the seventh trumpet, but WHAT IS PROPHESIED at the 7th trumpet. So rather than address all your muddled conclusions, let's look at Rev 11:15-19 AS RELATED TO THE MILLENNIUM.

1. The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ...
From Daniel's prophecy above, it is clear that after the second coming of Christ, all earthly kingdoms will be abolished so that Christ set's up the Kingdom of God on earth.
There are multiple prophecies to support this, but we will take just on from another prophetic book: Behold, a king shall reign in righteousness, and princes shall rule in judgment. (Isa 32:1) Who is this King who shall reign in righteousness? Is it not the Lord Jesus Christ at the Millennium? And in order to reign in righteousness, is it not imperative that all unrighteousness be abolished from the earth? And are not all the nations and kingdoms of this world presently unrighteous? So the only way that Christ can reign in righteousness is to bring every nation and kingdom to that state of righteousness which He requires.

2. ...and he shall reign for ever and ever.
What does this tell us? Does it not tell us that the Millennium is THE PRELUDE to the eternal Kingdom of God on earth?

3. ...because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
It should be evident to anyone with a little common sense that this was NOT FULFILLED within the time frame of Rev 11. Why? Because we have to arrive at Rev 19 and 20 to see this being fulfilled.

REVELATION 19
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

REVELATION 20 [A (THE)THOUSAND YEARS REPEATED SIX TIMES IN SEVEN VERSES]
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

I TRUST THAT AFTER THIS BIBLICAL REFUTATION OF AMILLENNIALISM, YOU WILL EITHER REPENT AND BELIEVE THIS WHOLEHEARTEDLY, OR SHUT UP RATHER THAN OPPOSE SCRIPTURE.

It is an impasse.
They have a huge,huge investment in that complex doctrine.

I have never,ever seen one of them recant. It is an impasse. They need their own thread,because it is MILES apart from where i focus and " reside".

Too tedious to sit down and "uninvent" their suppositions

 

[KJV1611]

Does anyone know of any references to the the 1000 year reign in the Old Testament? I can't think of any at the moment.

 

[Absolutely]

So we see just from the Scripture that I have used in this post (and there are many more I did not use) that it is impossible to have a 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth. The last day happens after the 1,000 years and not before like the premillennialist claims. This current age we are living in consists of the 1,000 years and little season of Satan in Rev 20. This period in Revelation 20 is symbolic. It comprises the entire time from the cross to His return. Then the heavens and earth are dissolved the same day he returns, which is the last day, and both wicked and righteous are raised on that day and judged at the Great White Throne judgment.



Once again, just to remind everyone reading this, and thank you for reading, I have posted this because I believe amillennialism to be correct biblically and premillennialism to be a dangerous lie.



People are looking for a pre-trib rapture, a seven year treaty between antichrist and Israel and a millennial kingdom of Christ on earth reigning from Jerusalem that are never coming. The devil has tricked much of the church to look for the wrong thing.



I have heard Christians say, “I will just get right with the Lord if I miss the rapture since I got 7 years.” But sadly they are deceived.



The Scripture says that day “comes as a thief” and “let him who is just be just still and him who is wicked be wicked still”. There will be no second chance.



Our God is holy and a consuming fire. Thankfully He is also rich in mercy and grace.



I hope this post is a blessing to someone. God bless.

Nope,not a blessing seeing this mess.
Two words for you;
Israel Re-establised

OOOOOPS

 

[Hevosmies]

It means nothing of the sort, "the kingdoms of this world" became Christ's when the whore city of Jerusalem and apostate Israel was destroyed in the war of 66 - 70 AD thus losing its "special status" as a nation unto God.

There you have it folks. The preterist delusion in full effect.

Kingdoms of this world means one small city in the middle-east.

You cant make this up.

 

[Absolutely]

Does anyone know of any references to the the 1000 year reign in the Old Testament? I can't think of any at the moment.

....speaking of which....you just revealed their mil is almost 2k....so far.
No wonder they work so tirelessly.
They will run out of time eventually

OMG ...TOO FUNNY.

 

[Hevosmies]

amil,distorts ones entire doctrinal view of the entire bible. ( only amils "know" what is "really" being said)
They are and claim elite status.
.....Amoung themselves.
I never bought it.

I can agree with this. This is the vibe im getting too. In order to know what X or Y text in the OT or revelation means, you have to turn to the amil pastor or expert of some sort.
You cant figure out that on your own.

You look at Isaiah 2, talking about nations not going to war no more. You look around and there is war war war and more war. So you say, its not fulfilled. You ask your pastor and BAM its fulfiled SPIRITUALLY in the church. Well problem is, churches argue and bicker constantly. LOL.

 

[KJV1611]

....speaking of which....you just revealed their mil is almost 2k....so far.
No wonder they work so tirelessly.
They will run out of time eventually

OMG ...TOO FUNNY.

I have no idea what the 1000 year reign is, whether it's literal or figurative or even when it's supposed to be.

 

[Absolutely]

There you have it folks. The preterist delusion in full effect.

Kingdoms of this world means one small city in the middle-east.

You cant make this up.

They really need their own thread.
Too far off from where i sit

 

[Absolutely]

I have no idea what the 1000 year reign is, whether it's literal or figurative or even when it's supposed to be.

It is laid out in rev 20