No you don’t! That’s the point about a parable.
Hello Scrobulous,
Yes, I do! If people would drop that adopted teaching of the rich man and Lazarus being a parable and just read it at face value, then they would understand it in its plain meaning.
It uses a set of images to reveal a deeper spiritual truth.
These are not images, but an event which actually took place which the Lord is relating to the reader. Parables use symbolism to represent what is literal. However, the rich man and Lazarus event uses the real names of Abraham, Lazarus, Moses and mentions the prophets, his father and five brothers, as well as the literal location of Hades.
The flames and the eternal suffering are the images, the truth is the separation from God and the loss of eternal life.
This is such a desperately horrible possibility that the best way of conveying it is by images of eternal torment. There is no need to believe the fire is a literal fire anymore than the kingdom of God is a literal mustard seed.
You are correct in that part of the punishment is being separated from God and that separation is said to be in the lake of fire. The lake of fire is not symbolic but will be literal flames and heat. The only reason that you are claiming that the torment in flame is symbolic is by your own definition. To be clear, you are just changing the meaning of what is meant to be literal.
This is ridiculous and shows very clearly the inherent weakness of your position. If you are going to be literal, you have to stick with it. No one on fire, can have a rational conversation. Your refusal to accept this demonstrates that you have no clue what you are talking about. It’s a parable, see, not a description of an actual event. It is illustrative of the irreversible nature of the decisions we make, or don’t make, on the earth.
I'll stick with what scripture says over you are anyone else. Because if you read these scriptures in the literal sense, then they mean what they say. No where in scripture is it said or hinted at, that eternal punishment infers nonexistence. As I continue to bring to everyone's attention, in order to have "no rest day or night," in order for "the smoke of their torment to ascent up forever and ever," one must be existing in order to experience that state of punishment, period.
To fear God is the beginning of wisdom and God certainly will separate the sheep from the goats and shut the goats out of his presence forever.
The judgment of the sheep and the goats is a judgment of those righteous and wicked who will have made it through the time of God's wrath alive. The sheep will go into eternal life and the wicked will be cast into the lake of fire. The church however, will have already been judged several years prior to that judgment at the Bema Seat of Christ for rewards or loss of rewards and not for sin.
Hell is that state. It is the destruction of the very soul of this person. The end of a destiny that could have lasted for eternity. It is an eternal condition whether or not the lost exist and are conscious or not.
Everyone who comes into the world exists forever, with both the righteous and the wicked receiving resurrected bodies. Those whose names have been written in the book of life will exist forever in the joy of the Lord in their resurrected bodies. In opposition, the unfaithful will exist forever in separation apart from God in their resurrected bodies - (Acts 24:15, Rev.20:11-15). Both life and death are states of eternal existence which is determined by and individuals state of being with God.
Life = Eternal existence in the kingdom of God
Death = Eternal existence in absence from God in the lake of fire, conscious and aware.
Everyone who comes into the world exists forever. Both life and death are states of eternal existence which is determined by and individuals state of being with God.
As for the words Kiltboy defines in his post, your interpretation, a complete loss of well-being that precludes annihilation is simply that - your interpretation.
Really?! Then you just plainly didn't read the definition of the Greek words that I provided which specifically say that those words do not infer annihilation or extinction. Pay attention! Here is the definition of those words again. So, take a look at what I have highlighted in red and underlined below:
Strong's Concordance
olethros: destruction, death
Original Word: ὄλεθρος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: olethros
Phonetic Spelling: (ol'-eth-ros)
Definition: destruction, death
Usage: ruin, doom, destruction, death.
HELPS Word-studies
3639 ólethros (from
ollymi/"destroy") – properly,
ruination with its full, destructive
results (
LS).
3639 /ólethros ("ruination")
however does not imply "extinction" (annihilation). Rather it emphasizes the consequent
loss that goes with the complete "
undoing."
apoleia:
"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to
destruction, and many enter through it."
Strong's Concordance
apóleia: destruction, loss
Original Word: ἀπώλεια, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: apóleia
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-o'-li-a)
Definition: destruction, loss
Usage: destruction, ruin, loss, perishing; eternal ruin.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 684 apṓleia (from
622 /apóllymi, "cut
off") –
destruction, causing someone (something) to be
completely severed – cut
off (entirely)
from what
could or should have been. (Note the force of the prefix,
apo.)
See 622 (
apollymi).
684 /apṓleia ("perdition")
does not imply "annihilation" (see the meaning of the root-verb,
622 /apóllymi, "cut off") but instead "loss of
well-being" rather than
being (
Vine's Expository Dictionary, 165; cf. Jn 11:50; Ac 5:37; 1 Cor 10:9-10; Jude 11).
So, since you can read it for yourself that the words do not imply annihilation or extinction, how can it be my own interpretation?
I am sure you think you are defending God’s word and that it is essential to read apocalyptic texts and parables as literal truths, but essentially this is a matter of interpretation.
Correct! And from the comparing of scriptures and cross-referencing, the word of God is clear that the proper interpretation is that death is a state of eternal existence in separation from God. No where does scripture ever infer that punishment in separation from God in the lake of fire as being temporary. It only becomes that when people ignore the literal, plain meaning and apply a symbolic or allegorical meaning to it and thereby distorting the truth.
Should we take these warnings of eternal torment seriously? Yes. Do we have to insist that the lost are literally tortured day and night? No.
Again, the scripture is literal and those who worship the beast, his image and receive his mark will suffer etnernal, on-going, conscious existence in separation from God in the lake of fire. Here is the scripture below:
"And a third angel followed them, calling out in loud a voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he too will drink the wine of God’s anger, poured undiluted into the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented in fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever. Day and night there will be no rest for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.”
By the way, in order for the wicked to be tormented in fire and sulfu in the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb, that individual would have to be conscious and aware. The word "Tormented in fire and sulfur" would infer on-going punsishment.
You seem to be genuinely concerned that the lost will not suffer enough. You seem to like the idea that others will suffer, but God doesn’t want anyone to perish, but all to come to repentance. He seems somewhat kinder than you.
First, your assumption about me is false, as I am not looking forward to anyone suffering. My concern is for the truth and accuracy of God's word, regardless of the topic. I'm speaking the truth of God's word, from His word. And you are correct in that, God does not want anyone to perish, but they will if they don't believe in His Son.
You and others are just carrying out Satan's lie regarding this Biblical topic and that because you have adopted the teachings of men. However, some day you will find out that what I am teaching and contending with you about is the truth.
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