Not By Works

Studyman · Nov 16, 2018

And what is the "LAW" that required "works" for justification of sins? Abraham didn't have those "Works" of the "law" because Levi wasn't even born yet.

You guys completely distort Paul's message to the Jews and gentiles in Romans 3.

There were "works of the Law" required for the remission of all man's sins, given to Moses, "until the seed should come". Abraham was justified "apart from this Law".

You guys refuse to even talk about this Biblical fact. And anyone who calls you out is placed on ignore and ridiculed and insulted. You quote your "ministers of Righteousness" and completely reject the very Word's of the Christ. Even rejecting your own scriptures.

"No, because of the law that requires "FAITH". And Abraham was justified by obeying that Law. Not obeying sacrificial "works" of a Priesthood that had not even been created yet.

What is the "law of faith"? It's a Law given by God, Yes?

"And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments."

This is a Law of Faith.

Your refusal to even discuss the difference between the "law of Faith" and the "Law of Works" reveals your desire to promote your religious franchise, rather than promoting the Word of God which became Flesh.

I know you will not consider because as Eve, you are convinced the resurrection is already over for you and you are saved, immortal, all set.

But for those others who "believe" every Word which proceeds out of the Mouth of God, can you see the deception? They, through religion, have destroyed the Law and Prophets. Jesus knew they would do this, that is why He specifically said:

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

"Remember" the LAW of FAITH.

J70x7 · Nov 16, 2018

Titus 1:10
For there are also many disobedient, vain talkers, and seducers: especially they who are of the circumcision.

dcontroversal · Nov 16, 2018

Argueless said:

#75,880

The truth is that the deceiver has been deceiving from the beginning until now.

How would we know who were the ones that were deceived?

We know that Eve was deceived when she believed the deceiver and disobeyed God's command.

Who are the deceivers and who were deceived?

...At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
Matthew 24:10‭-‬14‭, ‬24

...For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.
2 Corinthians 11:13‭-‬15

...And those that were deceived believed in the deceivers mentioned above and disobeyed God's commands because they were made to believe that they would not surely die, IOW, "always saved". But scriptures warn us not to be deceived;

Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them.
Ephesians 5:6‭-‬7

...Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?” The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’ ” “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. “For God knows that when
TruthTalkSenior Member

Oct 26, 2018

#75,170

Argueless said:

You said;
"Nowhere in the bible does it say that obedience is required for salvation."

God said:

“You have said harsh things against me,” says the Lord. “Yet you ask, ‘What have we said against you?’ “You have said, ‘It is futile to serve God. What did we gain by CARRYING OUT HIS REQUIREMENTS and going about like mourners before the Lord Almighty? But now we call the arrogant blessed. Certainly the evildoers prosper, and even those who challenge God escape.’” Then those who feared the Lord talked with each other, and the Lord listened and heard. A scroll of remembrance was written in his presence concerning those who feared the Lord and honored his name. “They will be mine,” says the Lord Almighty, “in the day when I make up my treasured possession. I WILL SPARE THEM, just as in compassion a man spares his son who serves him. And you will again see the distinction between the righteous and the wicked, between those who serve God and those who do not. Malachi 3:13-18

The Lord Jesus said;

“Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.”Matthew 19:17

Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.” Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me. John 14:21,23-24

The Apostle Paul said:

Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient.Ephesians 5:6

In Romans 6:16-22 Paul tells us that obedience leads to righteous that leads to holiness and the result is eternal life.

John said;

And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love. 2 John 1:6

John the baptist said;

the ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.” Luke 3:9

Am I a Catholic? No.
I fellowship with the G12 born again congregation and I learned these things from the WORD of God.

This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us. 1 John 3:16,23-24

But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, Philippians 3:20

..."OUR SALVATION IS NEARER NOW THAN WHEN WE FIRST BELIEVED"

...Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?” The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’” “You will not surely die,” the serpent said to the woman. “For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”...
Genesis 3:1‭-‬19

Does a person who teaches obedience to God causes another person to sin by doing so?

Would any person who don't have FAITH in God teach obedience to God? Or would the deceiver be TEACHING obedience to God as a deception? Would he not rather teach DISOBEDIENCE in His attempt to deceive the believers?

Is it not those who condemn those who teach obedience to God who DOES NOT HAVE FAITH in God and CAUSES A PERSON TO SIN?

Is it not that sin is the transgression of the law?(1 john 3:4)

Is it obedience to God to break the law?

Who then causes another person to sin?

...At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”

2 He called a little child and had him stand among them. 3 And he said: “I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

5 “And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me. 6 But IF ANYONE CAUSES ONE OF THESE LITTLE ONES WHO “BELIEVE” IN ME TO SIN, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

7 “Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but WOE TO THE MAN THROUGH WHOM THEY COME FROM! 8 If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be THROWN INTO ETERNAL FIRE. 9 And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be THROWN INTO THE FIRE OF HELL. matthew 18:1-9

...Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things GOD'S WRATH COMES ON THOSE WHO ARE DISOBEDIENT. ephesians 5:6

The above has no bearing on biblical salvation....regardless of how many pages of drivel you post!

Argueless · Nov 16, 2018

VCO said:

If you have the right to insist your FALSE THEOLOGY on someone else, go ahead coz I also have my rights too.

I will believe on EVERY WORD THAT COMES FROM THE MOUTH OF GOD and not on FALSE man made doctrines that NULLIFIES the laws and commands of God.

...He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written: “‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.’ You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men.” And he said to them: “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.’ But you say that if a man says to his father or mother: ‘Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is Corban’ (that is, a gift devoted to God), then you no longer let him do anything for his father or mother. Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.” Mark 7:6-13

two kinds of wisdom
... Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show it by his good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom. But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. Such “wisdom” does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, of the devil. For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice. But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. Peacemakers who sow in peace raise a harvest of righteousness. James 3:13-18

My poster name just reminded me about something. LOL.

Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them. Ephesians 5:6-7

Peace!

dcontroversal · Nov 16, 2018

posthuman said:

No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.

(John 13:13)

For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them, but the righteousness based on faith says, “do not say in your heart, ‘who will ascend into heaven?’”

(Romans 10:5-6)

I wonder how many will grasp this truth........

J70x7 · Nov 16, 2018

James 2:22
Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect?

VCO · Nov 16, 2018

Argueless said:

If you have the right to insist your FALSE THEOLOGY on someone else, go ahead coz I also have my rights too.

I will believe on EVERY WORD THAT COMES FROM THE MOUTH OF GOD and not on FALSE man made doctrines that NULLIFIES the laws and commands of God.

...He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written: “‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.’ You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men.” And he said to them: “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.’ But you say that if a man says to his father or mother: ‘Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is Corban’ (that is, a gift devoted to God), then you no longer let him do anything for his father or mother. Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.” Mark 7:6-13

two kinds of wisdom
... Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show it by his good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom. But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. Such “wisdom” does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, of the devil. For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice. But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. Peacemakers who sow in peace raise a harvest of righteousness. James 3:13-18

My poster name just reminded me about something. LOL.

Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them. Ephesians 5:6-7

Peace!

You know we had a fairly peaceful discussion group for quit a while, then you showed up.

All I did was disagree with you. Does this verse mean something to you?

Titus 3:10 (NIV)
10 Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him.

THAT'S ONCE!

mailmandan · Nov 16, 2018

J70x7 said:

In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It does not mean that Abraham was finally saved based on the merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15.

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22.

The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous (Romans 4:2-3), but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was “shown to be righteous."

eternally-gratefull · Nov 16, 2018

Argueless said:

If you have the right to insist your FALSE THEOLOGY on someone else, go ahead coz I also have my rights too.

I will believe on EVERY WORD THAT COMES FROM THE MOUTH OF GOD and not on FALSE man made doctrines that NULLIFIES the laws and commands of God.

...He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written: “‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.’ You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men.” And he said to them: “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.’ But you say that if a man says to his father or mother: ‘Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is Corban’ (that is, a gift devoted to God), then you no longer let him do anything for his father or mother. Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.” Mark 7:6-13

two kinds of wisdom
... Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show it by his good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom. But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. Such “wisdom” does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, of the devil. For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice. But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. Peacemakers who sow in peace raise a harvest of righteousness. James 3:13-18

My poster name just reminded me about something. LOL.

Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them. Ephesians 5:6-7

Peace!

Well

What you just proved you have no idea who you are talking to.

Would you like to know. Or would you rather make a fool of yourself by continuing to slander people you do not know?

dcontroversal · Nov 17, 2018

mailmandan said:

In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It does not mean that Abraham was finally saved based on the merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15.

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22.

The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous (Romans 4:2-3), but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was “shown to be righteous."

AMEN....THEREFORE we conclude = AN INSPIRED CONCLUSION.......

Paul CONCLUDED that ABRAHAM was justified by FAITH without the deeds/works of the LAW <----end of story.........!!

posthuman · Nov 17, 2018

dcontroversal said:

the way is narrow and few find it

posthuman · Nov 17, 2018

Studyman said:

dude, the teaching that when the Spirit who breathed all scripture says "the law" what it *really means to say* is 'selected portions of the law but not all of it' is not a Biblical fact.
your preaching that when God put down in His book "sin shall not have dominion over you for you are not under law but grace" is a typo, that He really meant to say 'sin shall have partial dominion over you for you are under part of the law mixed with a small amount of grace' is not a Biblical fact.

that's why we don't talk about it.

Studyman said:

the Serpent seems to have told you, 'you will not sssssurely have eternal life'

Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that believeth on Me hath everlasting life.
(John 6:47)

Studyman · Nov 17, 2018

eternally-gratefull said:

As their eyes open and they see the lake of fire, with Abraham and Lazarus and all the saints watching. When they realize where they are they will say;

Lord, Lord, don't you know who we are? Do you have any idea who you are talking to?

Matt. 7: 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Lawlessness)

Studyman · Nov 17, 2018

posthuman said:

It is absolutely a Biblical Fact that there was given to Moses a Priesthood which was to perform sacrificial "works of the Law" for the justification and cleansing of sins. That this Law was to be in force "until the Seed should come". And "after those days" the Christ would become the High Priest and perform these duties Himself as He Promised in the Law and Prophets. Your belief or unbelief in this truth doesn't make these " Spirit Breathed Scriptures" Void.

It is also an absolute Biblical Fact that Abraham was not given this Law for Justification. He had God's Commandments an Laws as the Spirit Breathed Scriptures clearly say, but not the Levitical Priesthood to perform "Works" to cleanse his sins. Levi wasn't even born yet. Your belief or unbelief has zero relevance to this Biblical Fact.

Paul understood these Biblical facts.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Two laws, one "ADDED" because of transgression of the other "until the Seed should come". One a "Law of Works" and one a "Law of Faith"

Of the one Law Paul says.

Rom. 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Rom. 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

What Law? animal sacrifice? Levite blessings? No, the Law of Faith. Love God, Love your neighbor and all that is defined as doing such which is shown through out the Law and Prophets.

Ex. 20:
2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Of the other Law Paul says:

Rom. 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Heb. 7:28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since (before) the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

Your preaching that this is referring to the 10 commandments is a deception.

What Law made men High Priests? The Law God gave to Abraham? Or the Law God gave to Levi 430 years after Abraham?

Of course, if you are convinced you are already immortal, and that much of God's instructions are against you, these Spirit Breathed Scriptures are irrelevant to you.

As for me, I'm still human, not immortal at all. I have Hope and Faith that I shall receive the gift of immortality, I am waiting with patience for the redemption. But I have not been convinced by other voices that I already have it because the Bible is clear. Not everyone receives His Grace.

posthuman · Nov 17, 2018

Studyman said:

It is absolutely a Biblical Fact that there was given to Moses a Priesthood which was to perform sacrificial "works of the Law" for the justification and cleansing of sins. That this Law was to be in force "until the Seed should come". And "after those days" the Christ would become the High Priest and perform these duties Himself as He Promised in the Law and Prophets. Your belief or unbelief in this truth doesn't make these " Spirit Breathed Scriptures" Void.

It is also an absolute Biblical Fact that Abraham was not given this Law for Justification. He had God's Commandments an Laws as the Spirit Breathed Scriptures clearly say, but not the Levitical Priesthood to perform "Works" to cleanse his sins. Levi wasn't even born yet. Your belief or unbelief has zero relevance to this Biblical Fact.

Paul understood these Biblical facts.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Two laws, one "ADDED" because of transgression of the other "until the Seed should come". One a "Law of Works" and one a "Law of Faith"

Of the one Law Paul says.

Rom. 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Rom. 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

What Law? animal sacrifice? Levite blessings? No, the Law of Faith. Love God, Love your neighbor and all that is defined as doing such which is shown through out the Law and Prophets.

Ex. 20:
2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Of the other Law Paul says:

Rom. 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Heb. 7:28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since (before) the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

Your preaching that this is referring to the 10 commandments is a deception.

What Law made men High Priests? The Law God gave to Abraham? Or the Law God gave to Levi 430 years after Abraham?

Of course, if you are convinced you are already immortal, and that much of God's instructions are against you, these Spirit Breathed Scriptures are irrelevant to you.

As for me, I'm still human, not immortal at all. I have Hope and Faith that I shall receive the gift of immortality, I am waiting with patience for the redemption. But I have not been convinced by other voices that I already have it because the Bible is clear. Not everyone receives His Grace.

physical circumcision.

jots and tittles.

what happened?

posthuman · Nov 17, 2018

posthuman said:

another opportunity to confess Christ -- will you?

posthuman · Nov 17, 2018

Studyman said:

so you do not believe Him.
He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life,

but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on them.
(John 3:36)

J70x7 · Nov 17, 2018

dcontroversal said:

Matthew 5:16
So let your light shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

Studyman · Nov 17, 2018

posthuman said:

You deflection or unbelief doesn't make the Word of God Void. Your lack of understanding isn't my fault. Your refusal to accept "Every Word of God" is a choice you make, I didn't make it for you.

I made a case and you, once again ignored it.

As it is written "We will not walk therein".

Studyman · Nov 17, 2018

posthuman said:

My Christ came to Preserve the Law and Prophets, not destroy them. This is the Christ I deny myself for. This is the Christ I follow.

It is His "Spirit Breathed Word's" that guide my footsteps.

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