Is Universalsim in Opposition to the Bible?

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I think what confuses a lot of people when considering scripture is they take it as God's inerrant word and that's it. Every "jot and tittle" was written by the finger of God. But that's not true.

The Holy Bible is the inspired word of God if you don't believe that's true then you may as well throw out your Bible and create your own religion based on what you think a religion should be.. Doing that is just making yourself a god and your religion is just a form of self worship..

That's why Apologetics and Bibliology are disciplines that exist in the faith. So that as God told us , we can realize we are not to believe every spirit but are to test the spirits and find the truth.

Your not going to test the spirits with the Holy Bible are you... So you end up testing the spirits with your own human based thinking which is imperfect and thus faulty.. The evil spirits would have an easy time decieving human beings who trust in their own thinking..

Consider what you believe because of what you've been taught all this time.

I became a Christian from reading the Bible when i was in my early 20's.. Since that time i have never joined a church because i never found a church that conformed to the Word of God.. So no pastor has been teaching me.. Indeed from your post that i am responding to hear it is clear to me someone has been teaching you..

God let the Devil and 1/3 of the angels that sided with the adversary in the war in Heaven live after they lost the war.

The revelation of the war between satan and his angels and Michael and his angels is revealed in the Book of Revelation at the end of the Bible.. It is a book of prophecy about the future not about what happened before the days of Adam and Eve.. In the end days.. lets see what the verses say::

Revelation 12: KJV
7 "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, {8} And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven."

Once this war happens no place in heaven would be found for satan and His angels anymore.. So After this final battle satan and His angels will be cast down to earth never to return to heaven again.. As the Book of Revelations says::

Revelation 12: KJV
12 "Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."

After being cast out of heaven satans time on earth will be short... Not the entire history of the world from Adam till the last day..

God created Hell to receive ha Satan and his angels, ha Satan allowed to commiserate with God in the meantime, at the end of days.

The eternal Lake of Fire is the place God created to receive satan and all who follow Him.. Not Hell .. Hell is a temporary prison for spirits.. On the day of the final judgement Hell is going to be cast into the eternal lake of fire along with satan and all who joined him in rebellion against God..

Revelation 20: KJV
13 "And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. {14} And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. {15} And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

And then God decided to allow those souls he did not know before the creation of the world and by name but that came to life by his will and for his purpose.

God foreknew everyone that has ever existed or will ever exist.. But He also knows those who will accept His Gospel to be justly Redeemed..

As all things occur in the domain of God to enter Hell with ha Satan and his angels at the end of days and for the punishment of their unrepentant in sins that are defined as transgressions against the law God created in the beginning. As did he the definition of sin, which is transgressions of the law God established.

But he's eternally kind.

God is indeed perfect in Love.. But i can love another person also but to have a relationship the person i love must love me back...... Same goes with God.. God can love us with a perfect love but if we reject His love and do not love Him back then we can receive no eternal benefit from a relationship with God that we refuse to have with Him..

There was no Hell, fire and brimstone, in the original Bible.

Yes there was.. And if you believe there was not then i feel sorry for you.. I guess the same people who taught you there was no hell or lake of fire also told you that the war between Michael and satan and their angels in heaven happened before the times of Adam and Eve ??? You have received a lot of false information .. But you have embraced it, Your have chosen to believe in a lie.. God knows that His truth will be accepted by those who are destined to eternal life in His perfect existence..

 

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And what does the Lake of Fire do, but completely destroy.

No the Lake of fire does not completly destroy.. Those who are cast into it will suffer torment forever and ever.. people who are suffering torment are not being totally destroyed..

Revelation 20: KJV
10 "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

 

[Adstar]

I think we have gone full circle now.

Something that is revived was woken up. Which means it existed in a dormant state.
However, I don't think the Apostle is addressing original sin in this passage. He's talking about the law.

Romans 5:12-14
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

Romans 5:KJV
12 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: {13} (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. {14} Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."

Who are those who had not sinned? Who still today have not sinned?? Innocent little ones that's who..

 

[Sketch]

Romans 5:KJV
12 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: {13} (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. {14} Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."

Who are those who had not sinned? Who still today have not sinned?? Innocent little ones that's who..

That's not what it says. You need to include the whole phrase.
"even over those who did not sin by breaking a command," (as did Adam)

Death reigned over those who lived before the law was given.
- What kind of "death"? (spiritual)
- What is "the law"? (Moses)

Romans 5:12-14
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

 

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That's not what it says. You need to include the whole phrase.
"even over those who did not sin by breaking a command," (as did Adam)

Death reigned over those who lived before the law was given.
- What kind of "death"? (spiritual)
- What is "the law"? (Moses)

Romans 5:12-14
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

Well lets include the whole phrase::
"""even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression"""

What was Adams trasgression ???? Obtaining the Knowledge of good and evil when God told him not to..

So there are people who suffer death on earth who have not yet obtained the knowledge of good and evil.. And those people are ??? Innocent little ones who die as babies having no knowledge of good and evil..

Also people recieve the Law as kids when their consciences call out to them showing them when they are doing wrong.. We are recieve a God given conscience before we ever hear about the Law in the Bible..

Romans 2: KJV
14 "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: {15} Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another"

 

[Sketch]

Well lets include the whole phrase::
"""even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression"""

What was Adams trasgression ???? Obtaining the Knowledge of good and evil when God told him not to..

So there are people who suffer death on earth who have not yet obtained the knowledge of good and evil.. And those people are ??? Innocent little ones who die as babies having no knowledge of good and evil..

Also people recieve the Law as kids when their consciences call out to them showing them when they are doing wrong.. We are recieve a God given conscience before we ever hear about the Law in the Bible..

Romans 2: KJV
14 "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: {15} Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another"

This is a good discussion.

Adam's transgression was not obtaining the knowledge of good and evil. That was a consequence.
The original couple lost their minds that day and passed it on to us. They opened a door that can never be closed again.
The best we can hope for is to take captive every thought to make them obedient to Christ.

The biblical account tells us that God forbid Adam to eat from the tree in the center of the garden.
On the day he ate thereof he would surely die. It was the serpent, according to the biblical account,
that informed Eve of the "qualities" of eating thereof. At that point she reasoned that it was good.
Adam's transgression was to disobey God's command to not eat.

I often wonder what would have happened if Eve had eaten and then offered some to Adam but he refused to eat.
Would he have covered for her as the "head" of the family, or what would the outcome have been?

 

[Lillywolf]

The Holy Bible is the inspired word of God if you don't believe that's true then you may as well throw out your Bible and create your own religion based on what you think a religion should be.. Doing that is just making yourself a god and your religion is just a form of self worship..

That's just silly. People discuss the scriptures all the time. The inspired word of God does not preclude that.

Your not going to test the spirits with the Holy Bible are you... So you end up testing the spirits with your own human based thinking which is imperfect and thus faulty.. The evil spirits would have an easy time decieving human beings who trust in their own thinking..

Goes back to my first response. Testing the spirits interpretation of scripture is imperative. Human understanding is a co-factor being we are still in this flesh and indwelt as we are , we are still trying to discern what is the leading of the spirit. And the leading of our own understanding.

I became a Christian from reading the Bible when i was in my early 20's.. Since that time i have never joined a church because i never found a church that conformed to the Word of God.. So no pastor has been teaching me.. Indeed from your post that i am responding to hear it is clear to me someone has been teaching you..

I'm not a member of a church. I'll leave your implication to your own imagination as far as your implying someone's teaching me. I doubt very much reading you that that is a positive. Meanwhile, I don't think you realize what you just admitted of yourself takes away any implication you hope to make concerning my knowledge, education, or understanding.

The revelation of the war between satan and his angels and Michael and his angels is revealed in the Book of Revelation at the end of the Bible.. It is a book of prophecy about the future not about what happened before the days of Adam and Eve.. In the end days.. lets see what the verses say::

Revelation 12: KJV
7 "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, {8} And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven."

Once this war happens no place in heaven would be found for satan and His angels anymore.. So After this final battle satan and His angels will be cast down to earth never to return to heaven again.. As the Book of Revelations says::

Revelation 12: KJV
12 "Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."

After being cast out of heaven satans time on earth will be short... Not the entire history of the world from Adam till the last day..

That's new.

The eternal Lake of Fire is the place God created to receive satan and all who follow Him.. Not Hell .. Hell is a temporary prison for spirits.. On the day of the final judgement Hell is going to be cast into the eternal lake of fire along with satan and all who joined him in rebellion against God..

Revelation 20: KJV
13 "And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. {14} And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. {15} And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."



God foreknew everyone that has ever existed or will ever exist.. But He also knows those who will accept His Gospel to be justly Redeemed..

Foreknowledge.

God is indeed perfect in Love.. But i can love another person also but to have a relationship the person i love must love me back...... Same goes with God.. God can love us with a perfect love but if we reject His love and do not love Him back then we can receive no eternal benefit from a relationship with God that we refuse to have with Him..

Love me! Or I'll send you to Hell!
God is more than you think.

Yes there was..

No, but if our theology requires there to be a fear paradigm in your belief system, that's your choice.

And if you believe there was not then i feel sorry for you.. I guess the same people who taught you there was no hell or lake of fire also told you that the war between Michael and satan and their angels in heaven happened before the times of Adam and Eve ??? You have received a lot of false information .. But you have embraced it, Your have chosen to believe in a lie.. God knows that His truth will be accepted by those who are destined to eternal life in His perfect existence..

And therefore God created those he foreknew to die damned.
You'll maybe accept this or not. I don't actually care.
If you believe Satan and 1/3 of the angels are still in Heaven, that the war in Heaven is yet to come then you're believing Satan follows God's command as God created him to be lord of this world and the adversary of his will for us. Which Satan can't really be because that would make him able to contend with God as an equal. Which he isn't.
One thing is for certain, you've not studied your Bible as much as you hope to impart here when you think the war in Heaven is future.
All you have to do to correct that lack of understanding, which will change your theology tremendously and for the better, is seek the scriptures that inform you of the fact that war has already happened. Because what you believe now, it being future, makes zero sense to the scriptures account by God's word and will from Genesis unto Revelation.

 

[Lillywolf]

Well lets include the whole phrase::
"""even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression"""

What was Adams trasgression ???? Obtaining the Knowledge of good and evil when God told him not to..

So there are people who suffer death on earth who have not yet obtained the knowledge of good and evil.. And those people are ??? Innocent little ones who die as babies having no knowledge of good and evil..

Also people recieve the Law as kids when their consciences call out to them showing them when they are doing wrong.. We are recieve a God given conscience before we ever hear about the Law in the Bible..

Romans 2: KJV
14 "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: {15} Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another"

Only knowledge of good and evil permits someone to choose to obey ultimatums concerning do and do not do.
Let's put it in terms of humans level of consciousness now in like comparison to that of the first humans, the Adam and Eve.

Adam and Eve did not possess knowledge of good or evil. They could not make a conscious choice to obey or disobey. They followed blindly just as they followed God with blind innocent trust. God planted the forbidden tree. He didn't have to.
The whole Genesis story tells you why you are human and egocentric. The first faith arrives when you believe you are damned for that.

 

[BibleloverBill]

No the Lake of fire does not completly destroy.. Those who are cast into it will suffer torment forever and ever.. people who are suffering torment are not being totally destroyed..

Revelation 20: KJV
10 "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

Who does the tormenting? I did a thorough Bible word studies about "forever", "everlasting", "death", "sleep", and "destroy". Sometimes "forever" is not forever physically. It means the relationship with God has been forever broken off, like the verse you sited.

Jude
7 The wicked are sentenced to suffer just as Sodom and Gomorrah
and the adjacent towns--
which likewise gave themselves over to impurity
and indulged in unnatural vice and sensual perversity--
are laid out in plain sight as an exhibit
of perpetual punishment to warn of everlasting fire.
8 Nevertheless in like manner, these dreamers also corrupt the body,
scorn and reject authority and government,
and revile and libel and scoff at heavenly glories (the glorious ones).

 

[Sketch]

The Holy Bible is the inspired word of God...

This is something we hear all the time in Christian circles.
It's interesting to consider the basis for such a claim.

If the New Testamant is the basis for this claim, then what was it referring to?
There was no New Testament when the New Testament was written.

In fact, the New Testament was not "written" in the sense that we think of.
It was a compilation of works that were canonized by a committee.
The works were judged to be inspired by the Church. (capital "C")

 

[tourist]

So you are claiming that Abraham and Moses were Christians?

I thought that they were Jews.

 

[Sketch]

I thought that they were Jews.

That's probably not technically correct either.
As I understand it, Jews are from the tribe of Judah.
Abraham and Moses were predecessors of the tribes of Israel. (Jacob)

"So you are claiming that Abraham and Moses were Christians? " - Sketch

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That's probably not technically correct either.
As I understand it, Jews are from the tribe of Judah.
Abraham and Moses were predecessors of the tribes of Israel. (Jacob)

"So you are claiming that Abraham and Moses were Christians? " - Sketch

All 12 tribles lived in Judah, When they were restored after babylon. Representatives of all 12 sons where there. They were called Jews

Abraham was the father of Israel

Moses freed them from slavery

 

[Sketch]

Abraham was the father of Israel

You are missing a step there.
Abraham was the father of Isaac. Isaac was the father of Jacob, who was renamed Israel.

 

[tourist]

You are missing a step there.
Abraham was the father of Isaac. Isaac was the father of Jacob, who was renamed Israel.

Looks like that makes Abraham the grandfather of Israel.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You are missing a step there.
Abraham was the father of Isaac. Isaac was the father of Jacob, who was renamed Israel.

Your missing the point,

Abraham was said to be the father of a great nation. Israel is that nation.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I thought that they were Jews.

Abraham and Moses were HEBREWS. The term Jew was used after the Babylonian captivity (c 600 BC), and applied to those who had come out of the kingdom of Judah. However the 12 tribes continued to be represented in Israel even after that.

James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting. (Jas 1:1)

 

[Nehemiah6]

Your missing the point,
Abraham was said to be the father of a great nation. Israel is that nation.

Had you used the term *ancestor* it would have been more appropriate. *Father* in Scripture frequently means just ancestor.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Had you used the term *ancestor* it would have been more appropriate. *Father* in Scripture frequently means just ancestor.

God did not say Abraham was going to be an ancestor. He said out of him was gong to come a great nation. And this nation was going to be given some land. To say he is just an ancestor is to completley miss The point.

 

[Adstar]

This is a good discussion.

Adam's transgression was not obtaining the knowledge of good and evil. That was a consequence.
The original couple lost their minds that day and passed it on to us. They opened a door that can never be closed again.
The best we can hope for is to take captive every thought to make them obedient to Christ.

The biblical account tells us that God forbid Adam to eat from the tree in the center of the garden.
On the day he ate thereof he would surely die. It was the serpent, according to the biblical account,
that informed Eve of the "qualities" of eating thereof. At that point she reasoned that it was good.
Adam's transgression was to disobey God's command to not eat.

I often wonder what would have happened if Eve had eaten and then offered some to Adam but he refused to eat.
Would he have covered for her as the "head" of the family, or what would the outcome have been?

I believe Adam waited to see what happened to Eve. He used Eve as a gunnia pig. Because Eve did not die imediatly Adam then thought that well it musn't be too bad and he ate of the tree himself.. And of course they both died..

The reason why Adam and Eve lost their ""good"" status.. (((Remember when God had intially created them and the world He declared it good..))) Was because they now had the knowledge of good and evil..