Sheep and goats. Separate from, or same as The great white throne judgment?
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From Mounce’s Greek interlinear of Luke 23:46...
παρατίθημι (paratithēmi)
to place by the side of, or near; to set before, Mk. 6:41; 8:6, 7; Lk. 9:16; met. to set or lay before, propound, Mt. 13:24, 31; to inculcate, Acts 17:3; to deposit, commit to the charge of, entrust, Lk. 12:48; 23:46; to commend, Acts 14:23
παρατίθημι (paratithēmi)
to place by the side of, or near; to set before, Mk. 6:41; 8:6, 7; Lk. 9:16; met. to set or lay before, propound, Mt. 13:24, 31; to inculcate, Acts 17:3; to deposit, commit to the charge of, entrust, Lk. 12:48; 23:46; to commend, Acts 14:23
Back to the sheep and goats. I see the terms are used interchangeably with wheat and tares and has a 1st century application.
Matt 25 "sheep and goats" is a continuation of Matt 24. Jesus is speaking to his disciples rather than sending a general broadcast message for all future generations:
Mat 10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
Mat 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Mat 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
The above is spoken to HIS contemporary disciples.
So lets look at the context of the goats and sheep:
Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Notice next:
Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Jesus is speaking of his contemporary brethren that were to proclaim the gospel, the goats would be those Jews/Israelites in the cities of Israel and the nations where the gospel was being spread, the goats rejecting and persecuting them in the councils and synagoguess during the 40 years after Christ death.
Mat 10:17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;
Matt 25 "sheep and goats" is a continuation of Matt 24. Jesus is speaking to his disciples rather than sending a general broadcast message for all future generations:
Mat 10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
Mat 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Mat 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
The above is spoken to HIS contemporary disciples.
So lets look at the context of the goats and sheep:
Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Notice next:
Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Jesus is speaking of his contemporary brethren that were to proclaim the gospel, the goats would be those Jews/Israelites in the cities of Israel and the nations where the gospel was being spread, the goats rejecting and persecuting them in the councils and synagoguess during the 40 years after Christ death.
Mat 10:17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;
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Mat 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
Common sense dictates that either the 2nd advent happened in the first century OR the verse ISN'T talking about the 2nd advent it's talking about the resurrection of Christ.
This verse is the simple easy to understand verse that can't be, as far as I can see, symbolic. The other verses are not so simple to understand and must be looked at in light of this verse.
The same principle holds true for most of the other biblical doctrines like OSAS, works etc. The simple easy to understand verses set the stage and the not so easy to see, or the verses that seem to contradict the simple verse need to be looked at in light of the simple verses.
Common sense dictates that either the 2nd advent happened in the first century OR the verse ISN'T talking about the 2nd advent it's talking about the resurrection of Christ.
This verse is the simple easy to understand verse that can't be, as far as I can see, symbolic. The other verses are not so simple to understand and must be looked at in light of this verse.
The same principle holds true for most of the other biblical doctrines like OSAS, works etc. The simple easy to understand verses set the stage and the not so easy to see, or the verses that seem to contradict the simple verse need to be looked at in light of the simple verses.
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Neither of those is true and what the passage involves.
Scripture-writers make use of what is called the "proleptic 'you'" which is basically "all those in the future of the same category" (the same is used with regard to "the Church which is His body" where one thing is stated to be true of it [all those who are saved throughout the entire time "the Church which is His body" continues its existence on the earth], and we [even today] apply it directly to ourselves, because [even] we are still of "the Church which is His body" [the Rapture concludes THAT time span]).
This passage, though, is directed to those to who "the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom" was promised (note Acts 1 and their question there, as well as the specific way Jesus answered it). The Olivet Discourse, for example, is not covering the SUBJECT of our "Rapture" (the Rapture pertains SOLELY to "the Church which is His body," not to all other saints of all OTHER time periods), as that is NOT its CONTEXT.
...and one way to ascertain all this, is by examining the "SEQUENCE" issues you and I covered the other day ["the beginning of birth PANGS"]. The CHRONOLOGY of "what happens when" impacts how we understand these (and the "proleptic 'you'" of any given context).
Scripture-writers make use of what is called the "proleptic 'you'" which is basically "all those in the future of the same category" (the same is used with regard to "the Church which is His body" where one thing is stated to be true of it [all those who are saved throughout the entire time "the Church which is His body" continues its existence on the earth], and we [even today] apply it directly to ourselves, because [even] we are still of "the Church which is His body" [the Rapture concludes THAT time span]).
This passage, though, is directed to those to who "the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom" was promised (note Acts 1 and their question there, as well as the specific way Jesus answered it). The Olivet Discourse, for example, is not covering the SUBJECT of our "Rapture" (the Rapture pertains SOLELY to "the Church which is His body," not to all other saints of all OTHER time periods), as that is NOT its CONTEXT.
...and one way to ascertain all this, is by examining the "SEQUENCE" issues you and I covered the other day ["the beginning of birth PANGS"]. The CHRONOLOGY of "what happens when" impacts how we understand these (and the "proleptic 'you'" of any given context).
I understand that, but brother could you provide your commentary on verse 31?
When Jesus is COMING in his glory with his angels.
If this is at the GWT, from WHERE is Jesus coming to WHERE? Since Jesus is on earth ruling during the millennium right?
If you got a good explanation for this verse(matt 25:31) that would PROVE your view correct.
When Jesus is COMING in his glory with his angels.
If this is at the GWT, from WHERE is Jesus coming to WHERE? Since Jesus is on earth ruling during the millennium right?
If you got a good explanation for this verse(matt 25:31) that would PROVE your view correct.
Propleptic - the representation of something in the future as if it already existed or had occurred.
Jesus said that the disciples (proleptic you) would not cover the cities of Israel before he would come. What makes the disciples proleptic?
For this to be a proleptic you, the disciples would have to return to earth at a later time and finish going to the cities of Israel after Christ comes again. Wouldn't that by definition be the only way that verse could be a proleptic you?
Jesus said that the disciples (proleptic you) would not cover the cities of Israel before he would come. What makes the disciples proleptic?
For this to be a proleptic you, the disciples would have to return to earth at a later time and finish going to the cities of Israel after Christ comes again. Wouldn't that by definition be the only way that verse could be a proleptic you?
^ The disciples represented (during His earthly ministry) "those to whom the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom" was promised; and they ask Him about it in Acts 1 (just before His VISIBLE ascension [not His "[ACTIVE] ascension" 40 days earlier ON Firstfuit/His Resurrection Day (which no one "saw," He only TOLD MM to "say unto them"...Jn20:17], which is the same way He will "RETURN" to the earth: VISIBLY, at the time of His Second Coming to the earth, Rev19 [see "RETURN" in Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 ("when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." THEN the meal) AND in Lk19:12,15,17,19 (when he deals out responsibilities having to do with "have thou authority over 10 cities" and "thou over 5 cities" i.e. on the earth)]. This is distinct from what "the Church which is His body" will have (i.e. our "Rapture" and the purposes for THAT [ex: 1Cor6:3[14] "we shall judge angels"--but note what the 12 were promised: Lk22:30 and its parallels "judging the 12 tribes of Israel")
… "represented" does not mean the actual 12 return to carry out the rest... (during the trib; the believing remnant of Israel [who come to faith WITHIN the trib (AFTER our Rapture)] will do that. Matt22:7 = 70ad events, and then verse 8 "THEN SAITH HE to his servants" = the far-future "servants" [Rev7:3 for example (Rev1:1 "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]")] who do the "INVITING" to the wedding FEAST/SUPPER [earthly MK]). These are the "proleptic 'you'" of the passages that pertain to THAT, like in Matt10 parts, etc. [Rev19:7 (the "BRIDE/WIFE [SINGULAR]") is DISTINCT FROM the Rev19:9 "INVITED GUESTS [PLURAL]" to the supper (earthly MK)]
All I can say is wow.... do you really believe that? I don't see how in the world did you come to the conclusion that the disciples represent anything much less those in the millennial kingdom.
Where do you draw the line on these assumptions I mean when do you believe the bible for exactly what it says?
Where do you draw the line on these assumptions I mean when do you believe the bible for exactly what it says?
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When he comes with us,the saints he immediately does battle with the AC and that army.
You could be correct that he then sets up judgement. Some intermediate judgement. But i doubt it.
That would remove all but followers of Jesus,his holy body for the next 1000 yrs.
I don't see any way that could be.
You could be correct that he then sets up judgement. Some intermediate judgement. But i doubt it.
That would remove all but followers of Jesus,his holy body for the next 1000 yrs.
I don't see any way that could be.