Sheep and goats. Separate from, or same as The great white throne judgment?

[TheDivineWatermark]

All I can say is wow.... do you really believe that? I don't see how in the world did you come to the conclusion that the disciples represent anything much less those in the millennial kingdom.

Where do you draw the line on these assumptions I mean when do you believe the bible for exactly what it says?

First, we went over "the beginning of birth pangs" the other day (the SEQUENCE issues of the Olivet Discourse passages).
The 70ad events must take place "BEFORE" the beginning of birth pangs" (according to Luke 21:12 and following which states "but BEFORE ALL THESE [meaning, BEFORE all the beginning of birth pangs just listed in verses 8-11]).

Once you establish that 70ad events must come BEFORE the "beginning of birth pangs," and then grasp what the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" consists of (the "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE'," who is elaborated on elsewhere in several places [and that 1Th5:2-3 is associated]), then you see that "the beginning of birth PANGS" is the first half of the [future] trib when the "CONSISTENT 'YE'" of the Olivet Discourse following that INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" involves the Matthew 24:14[26:13] SPECIFIC MESSAGE of that future time period (not taking place "in this present age"), and that it is also THEM that will have to "FLEE" (not "the Church which is His body" who will have already been raptured out well before that point in the chronology).

And THEY will "flee" only because they will have come to faith (WITHIN the trib) and will also be being gravely persecuted "for My name's sake"... and who are the "least of these My brethren" [25:40] (having come to faith WITHIN the trib) whom the Gentiles/nations will either [at the end] be called "BLESSED" by our Lord (because they aided these) or called "CURSED" by our Lord (because they did not aid or bless "the least of these My brethren" during that specific [future] time period). [sound familiar??]

Matthew 22:8 and then 9-14 correlates with (when considering THESE SEQUENTIAL ISSUES)...with Revelation 1:1's "to shew unto His servants [ex: 7:3] things which must come to pass [i.e. the 4:1 "FUTURE" things of the Book] IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]...," NOT things which will [and have] transpire over the course of the some 2000 years since written, and not "soon" and not "quickLY" as in "shortly-to-when-it-was-written" because it's a NOUN not an adverb; and the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" correlates with elsewhere-stated TIME-FRAMES in Lk18:8 (chpt17), and involving whom in Rom16:20a, etc).

To put it more simply, at the time the Olivet Discourse was spoken (answering His disciples Q's), He had NOT YET disclosed anything about "Rapture" (and wasn't answering such a question, in this CONTEXT, nor covering THAT SUBJECT). He had ALREADY spoken to them about "the end [singular] of the age [singular]" in Matthew 13:24,30,39,40,49-50 (when the angels will REAP and then "the age to come" will commence/follow), and this is why they are ASKING Him about it [further] in Matthew 24:3. It involves the "WHEAT harvest" (which is not "the Church which is His body," but instead involves the "TWO LOAVES" and "baken with leaven"-Lev23:17, and which is harvested by means of a "tribulum," or however that is spelled ). Much more, but this must suffice for now...

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ EDIT - "He had ALREADY spoken to them about "the end [singular] of the age [singular]" in Matthew 13:24,30,39,40,49-50 (when the angels will REAP and then "the age to come" [i.e. the promised AND PROPHESIED earthly Millennial Kingdom THEY were promised and were RIGHTLY EXPECTING] will commence/follow), and this is why they are ASKING Him about it [further] in Matthew 24:3." (they just did not understand the TIMING of it [per Acts 1 and parts of Acts 3, like v21])



[note: "the end [singular] of the age [singular]" is the end of the age they were standing in and speaking out from (in Matt24:3); it is not the same as "this present age [singular]" (pertaining to "the Church which is His body" "NOW"); "The age to come" correctly FOLLOWS "the end [singular] of the age [singular]," but "the end [singular] of the age [singular]" must [yet] play out first... ]

 

[KJV1611]

First, we went over "the beginning of birth pangs" the other day (the SEQUENCE issues of the Olivet Discourse passages).
The 70ad events must take place "BEFORE" the beginning of birth pangs" (according to Luke 21:12 and following which states "but BEFORE ALL THESE [meaning, BEFORE all the beginning of birth pangs just listed in verses 8-11]).

Once you establish that 70ad events must come BEFORE the "beginning of birth pangs," and then grasp what the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" consists of (the "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE'," who is elaborated on elsewhere in several places [and that 1Th5:2-3 is associated]), then you see that "the beginning of birth PANGS" is the first half of the [future] trib when the "CONSISTENT 'YE'" of the Olivet Discourse following that INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" involves the Matthew 24:14[26:13] SPECIFIC MESSAGE of that future time period (not taking place "in this present age"), and that it is also THEM that will have to "FLEE" (not "the Church which is His body" who will have already been raptured out well before that point in the chronology).

And THEY will "flee" only because they will have come to faith (WITHIN the trib) and will also be being gravely persecuted "for My name's sake"... and who are the "least of these My brethren" [25:40] (having come to faith WITHIN the trib) whom the Gentiles/nations will either [at the end] be called "BLESSED" by our Lord (because they aided these) or called "CURSED" by our Lord (because they did not aid or bless "the least of these My brethren" during that specific [future] time period). [sound familiar??]

Matthew 22:8 and then 9-14 correlates with (when considering THESE SEQUENTIAL ISSUES)...with Revelation 1:1's "to shew unto His servants [ex: 7:3] things which must come to pass [i.e. the 4:1 "FUTURE" things of the Book] IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]...," NOT things which will [and have] transpire over the course of the some 2000 years since written, and not "soon" and not "quickLY" as in "shortly-to-when-it-was-written" because it's a NOUN not an adverb; and the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" correlates with elsewhere-stated TIME-FRAMES in Lk18:8 (chpt17), and involving whom in Rom16:20a, etc).

To put it more simply, at the time the Olivet Discourse was spoken (answering His disciples Q's), He had NOT YET disclosed anything about "Rapture" (and wasn't answering such a question, in this CONTEXT, nor covering THAT SUBJECT). He had ALREADY spoken to them about "the end [singular] of the age [singular]" in Matthew 13:24,30,39,40,49-50 (when the angels will REAP and then "the age to come" will commence/follow), and this is why they are ASKING Him about it [further] in Matthew 24:3. It involves the "WHEAT harvest" (which is not "the Church which is His body," but instead involves the "TWO LOAVES" and "baken with leaven"-Lev23:17, and which is harvested by means of a "tribulum," or however that is spelled ). Much more, but this must suffice for now...

But none of that has anything to do with Jesus coming before the disciples cover Israel and this is my point. You see "Jesus coming" and your mind automatically goes to the second advent and you ignore the context of the verse.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

But none of that has anything to do with Jesus coming before the disciples cover Israel and this is my point. You see "Jesus coming" and your mind automatically goes to the second advent and you ignore the context of the verse.

Well, I'm saying that The Revelation (1:1 etc) was written in 95ad (not before the 70ad events), and that it correlates with Matt22:8 "THEN SAITH HE to his servants" [AFTER the 70ad events, v.7!] (who are to do the INVITING of the "guests" to the "wedding FEAST/SUPPER" [the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom"]; and that the SEALS of Rev6 equal "the beginning of birth PANGS" (Matthew 24:4-8/Mk13:5-8/Lk21:8-11; 1Th5:2-3), the INITIAL one of which [birth PANG [SINGULAR]" Paul said was not yet present (the 70ad events must come BEFORE those-Lk21:12-24a) and Luke 21:24b follows on from there [still in the 70ad-section of the Olivet Discourse],

...meaning that where it says "And they shall fall by the edge of the sword and shall be led away captive into all the nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles until the TIMES of the Gentiles be fulfilled [comp Rev11:2]" ["the TIMES of the Gentiles" having started in 606bc, think Neb's statue/image with Neb as head of gold], and then consider that Rev17:8 says, "[beast] which was, and IS NOT, and YET SHALL BE" (at the time Rev was written).


I believe that ALL "Son of man cometh/coming/shall come/be come/etc" passages refer to His Second Coming to the earth FOR the commencement of the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, variously called (or associated with):

--"the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" (the various "BLESSED" passages, such as Rev19:9, Dan12:12, Matt25:31-34, Matt24:44-47, Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44, [Mk11:10 cpl'd w/Matt23:39/Lk13:35], Rev16:15-16, etc)

--"the kingdom of the heavens" (located on the earth, upon His "RETURN" there, at the time of His Second Coming to the earth)

--the "shall sit down [G347; denoting 'around a table/at a meal']" passages (like Matt8:11 and parallel)

--the "meal" ("when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." THEN the meal [He's returning as an "ALREADY-WED Bridegroom," WITH His [then] "ALREADY-WED Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]" for the "wedding FEAST/SUPPER/MEAL" on the earth [the earthly MK])

--when He will "[not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine,] UNTIL I drink it NEW WITH [G3326- meta - ACCOMPANYING] YOU in My Father's kingdom" (parallel with Luke 22:30,16,18)

--"when" the 12 were promised they will "sit on 12 thrones, judgING the 12 tribes of Israel (parallel with Matthew 19:28; note correlation with Matt25:31-34 for TIMING; parallel with Lk22:30,16,18)

--others I'm not recalling off the top of my head at the moment... (perhaps Rev19:15b "and He shall rule [shepherd (same word in Rev7:17 as "feed" there)] them [the nations] with a rod/sceptre of iron [righteousness and strength]"... so unless you believe that Jesus has already fulfilled Rev19 events [full preterism??], then there's a few things to consider... including the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" that Rev1:1 says that the FUTURE aspects of the Book must take place IN ("IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"--NOT things transpiring over the course of some 2000 years [the Historicist view]).

Anything need clarifying?

 

[GraceAndTruth]

Sheep and goats, wheat and tares, pots and others, have been judged........Past tense John 3:18

I'm looking for Jesus Christ not signs and wonders of an 'antichrist' that is mentioned only 3 times in the bible and only by JOHN and he is referring to unbeleivers, not some mega evil maniac.

If "that great trib" that preacher use to scare people into their congregations is true, then Josephus (who was THERE) is a liar.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

"23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people." Luke 21:23, which IS part of the "70ad" section of the entire Olivet Discourse; but because of the SEQUENTIAL issues (pertaining to the whole of the Olivet Discourse), the "70ad" section [events] must take place "BEFORE ALL THESE [BEFORE all the beginning of birth PANGS just described in the previous verses, Lk21:8-11 which parallel with Mt24:4-8/Mk13:5-8]" (which are yet to occur, and which are a part of what the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" FUTURE things speak of and describe in The Revelation [1:1/4:1+/7:3 etc, and Lk18:8/17:24-37 and Rom16:20/1Cor6:3(14) things...], which concludes with His Second Coming to the earth, Rev19:19/16:14-16/Rev20 which point in time is parallel with Isa24:21-22a[23], with part b taking place at the later GWTj).

So if the 70ad events was BEFORE the beginning of birth PANGS [equaling the SEALS], then Armageddon occurred well after those rather than IN the 70ad events (per the Preterist viewpoint).

 

[Absolutely]

Sheep and goats, wheat and tares, pots and others, have been judged........Past tense John 3:18

I'm looking for Jesus Christ not signs and wonders of an 'antichrist' that is mentioned only 3 times in the bible and only by JOHN and he is referring to unbeleivers, not some mega evil maniac.

If "that great trib" that preacher use to scare people into their congregations is true, then Josephus (who was THERE) is a liar.

Oh really?
When did he see any of it???
The flying scorpions,hail on fire,the mark, all beheaded refusing it.?

 

[GraceAndTruth]

Oh really?
When did he see any of it???
The flying scorpions,hail on fire,the mark, all beheaded refusing it.?

yes, REALLY!

Never discount the symbolism John uses in Revelation. He did this so only the churches would understand considering that they were under persecution by Rome at that time. Some can be literal, like the "flying scorpions" because there is a locust that can sting like a scorpion.

Josephus was a Jewish historian traveling with the Roman army on the way to the seige of Jerusalem, and witnessed the events there.

 

[Absolutely]

yes, REALLY!

Never discount the symbolism John uses in Revelation. He did this so only the churches would understand considering that they were under persecution by Rome at that time. Some can be literal, like the "flying scorpions" because there is a locust that can sting like a scorpion.

Josephus was a Jewish historian traveling with the Roman army on the way to the seige of Jerusalem, and witnessed the events there.

Your post seems to agree with rev and the GT being future.
History is a huge obsticle for the preterist.
Thank you Josephus
Note, you answered my challenge of what he saw with who he is
Hmmmm

 

[GraceAndTruth]

Your post seems to agree with rev and the GT being future.
History is a huge obsticle for the preterist.
Thank you Josephus
Note, you answered my challenge of what he saw with who he is
Hmmmm

I do not agree that GT is future. My position is Amil. (not preterist)

 

[Absolutely]

I do not agree that GT is future. My position is Amil. (not preterist)

Rev 14s harvest is DURING the GT.
So you have to place that rapture as historical also.

 

[GraceAndTruth]

Rev 14s harvest is DURING the GT.
So you have to place that rapture as historical also.

DURING the GT? How do you get that?

If you are referring to the 2nd coming of Christ then every Amil person would agree that is future. I am NOT of the preterist position which claims that Christ already came.