Revelation 17:8

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Apr 15, 2017
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#81
Continued,

Rev 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
Rev 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
Rev 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
Rev 17:13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, have fallen physical dominion, the Roman Empire existed when John wrote Revelation, and one is to come, the ten horn kingdom, the world split in to ten sections with a leader in each section, and will rule for a short space, three and one half years.

The ten horn kingdom has failed at providing peace, which the ten horn kingdom is one of the heads that was wounded, for the world lost hope for there to be peace, and prosperity on earth, but the beast, New Age Christ, gave them hope, and the world turned to the man of sin as the solution for peace and prosperity on earth, and the deadly wound was healed, and the ten horns hand their power over to the beast, and that is how he gets control of the world, for he has power over all nations, kindreds, and tongues.

The beast is the eighth king, but is of the seven, for the devil influenced those 7 kingdoms.

Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

The Bible says the beast is the great dragon, Satan, who controls the man of sin to deceive the world, which Satan is of the 7 kingdoms, and the crowns now are on the 7 heads, Satan in the spiritual realm deceiving people, so Satan could of not been in the bottomless pit being bound where he could not influence at all, and he is the prince of the power of the air right now.

So who ascends from the bottomless pit, for could it be the spirit of antichrist that influences more than at any other time, which means Satan is off his leash.

For Satan is on his leash right now.

Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Act 1:25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.

Judas is called the son of perdition, and went to his own place, so could this mean that Satan was off his leash when he tempted Judas, which he could not resist, for Jesus knew his heart was not right, and allowed Judas to betray Him.

2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

The man of sin is known as the son of perdition the same as Judas.

When the devils are cast to earth, because the condition of the world caused it, which is when the falling away first happens, when the transgressors are come to the full, the devils will deceive all people who love not the truth, and they shall be given strong delusion, a delusion they cannot snap out of, and they cannot resist the delusion.

So when this happens Satan is off his leash, and the people that do not love the truth cannot resist the delusion, the same as Judas Iscariot could not resist the delusion, for he is an antichrist type, and did not honestly love the truth.

So the bottomless pit might be representative that when he is in the bottomless pit, he is on a leash and can only deceive so much, but not fully as he wants to deceive.

He was on a leash until Judas Iscariot, then he was off his leash, but only for that one man, and he could not resist, and then he was on his leash again until the future when the devils are cast to earth, then he is off his leash, and gives strong delusion to all people that do not love God, and they cannot resist the same as Judas could not resist.

So the bottomless pit might be representative that Satan is on a leash, and when he ascends from the bottomless pit could be representative that he is off the leash, because Satan has been the prince of the power of the air since he tempted Eve, so how could he ever be in a bottomless pit bound and could not influence, unless it represents him being on a leash.

Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

After Jesus puts down the world, and Jesus and the saints rule over the people that God spared then Satan is back in the bottomless pit, which means he is back on a leash, but this time he is on a leash where he cannot affect any of the heathen at all, unlike in the past, which being bound with chains might represent that he is on leash where he cannot deceive at all unlike the past, and there is peace on earth.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Then at the end of the millennial reign Satan shall be loosed from the bottomless pit, be off his leash, and deceive the heathen and they go against the saints, and then God puts a stop to it, and then Satan does not go to the bottomless pit, but he goes to the lake of fire, for he cannot influence anybody ever again, so there is no on the leash, off the leash, bottomless pit thing anymore.

The beast is the great dragon, Satan, and is the prince of the power of the air, and as long as mankind can sin, and God does not end sin on earth yet, Satan will be able to tempt, and influence the wicked, so Satan does not ascend from the bottomless pit as far as ever been bound, and could not influence, until the time of the millennial reign, but this is before the millennial reign, so it must be representative that when he is the bottomless pit he is on a leash, and when he is not in the bottomless pit he is off the leash.

So Satan can be considered in the bottomless pit for he is on a leash right now, which means people have the power to resist him if they choose the good, and truth, and no one is given strong delusion yet among the wicked, but when he ascends from the bottomless pit he is off the leash, and the people that do not love the truth, the wicked, cannot resist the strong delusion given them, as strong delusion was given to Judas who also did not love the truth, a betrayer of Jesus, an antichrist.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,431
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#85
You're such a coward. You post something without giving a name to who you are addressing. Why? So you can whine like you are doing now about someone answering your post when it wasn't directed at them. Your post wasn't directed at anyone. So does that mean no one can respond to you? What a coward you are. You want a free ride. You have your ace in the hole....you believe.

If you post it, anyone can respond to it. If you're scared then please end each post with 'please no one respond to my post as I am scared'. Or you can fit my name only in there if you like.

Quantrill
No I did not know you deliberately missquoted what I had posted, and having waited this ong to say so I suspect it was not deliberate but the work of someone who thinks very highy of hiimself.

Now you call names. Yes you have put yourself in the place of the Good dJudge Who judges with mercy.

I bet you wear a cowboy hat. Now stop judging others and hear them. I have heard you, too much at this point. May you find the courage to love all, even your perceived enmies for this is the Way in Jesus Christ.
+
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
8,048
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#86
No I did not know you deliberately missquoted what I had posted, and having waited this ong to say so I suspect it was not deliberate but the work of someone who thinks very highy of hiimself.

Now you call names. Yes you have put yourself in the place of the Good dJudge Who judges with mercy.

I bet you wear a cowboy hat. Now stop judging others and hear them. I have heard you, too much at this point. May you find the courage to love all, even your perceived enmies for this is the Way in Jesus Christ.
+

I feel ashamed that I ask for others reflection over one single verse(Rev.17:8) and it has come to such turmoil,I feel responsible for it all,forgive me if you all would suffer it please.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,431
6,707
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#87
I feel ashamed that I ask for others reflection over one single verse(Rev.17:8) and it has come to such turmoil,I feel responsible for it all,forgive me if you all would suffer it please.



As for determining what is actual understanding of Revelation and Daniel I try to stay away for it unless it is someting Jesus says specivfically and in plain language, and even then sometimes it is more than just plain language.

kAs for your quote, I cannot find it, nor did I recognize it when reading your post, please let me know where it is in the ASV or KJV....here is your quote (I believe) from KJV using the numbers I see.

Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
 

Quantrill

Well-known member
Sep 20, 2018
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#88
By the way, since the beast is said to be in the Abyss, there is no way that he could be a human being.
I'm not sure that is an axiom. After all, hell is prepared for the devil and his angels, and people will go there also.

But though there is evil behind the beast, and it is angelic, yes, I believe (Rev. 17:8,11) clearly identify a man as the beast who is coming out of the pit, and shall go into perdition.

Consider what is said of Judas Iscariot. (Acts 1:25) "That he (Matthias) may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place. " Parenthesis mine.

(John 17:12) "...I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the Scripture might be fulfilled."

(John 6:70) "Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?"

Judas is the son of perdition.
Judas goes to his own place.
Judas is a devil.

Could this not be the one who rises out of the pit, who also goes into perdition? (Rev. 17:8) The seed promise concerning Christ in (Gen. 3:15) resulted in the God/Man, Jesus Christ. Why shouldn't the serpents 'seed' result in a devil/man?

I find this very interesting.

Quantrill
 

Quantrill

Well-known member
Sep 20, 2018
988
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#89
I feel ashamed that I ask for others reflection over one single verse(Rev.17:8) and it has come to such turmoil,I feel responsible for it all,forgive me if you all would suffer it please.
Oh please. This is a forum. Enough with some pseudo guilt.

Quantrill
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
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#90
I'm not sure that is an axiom. After all, hell is prepared for the devil and his angels, and people will go there also.

But though there is evil behind the beast, and it is angelic, yes, I believe (Rev. 17:8,11) clearly identify a man as the beast who is coming out of the pit, and shall go into perdition.
Rev.17:8, 11 does not state that the beast is a man. What it does say is that he is an eighth king, which is referring to this angel as being the power behind the antichrist. As I demonstrated in a previous post, when that angel was sent to Daniel, he stated that the prince of Persia withstood him, i.e. kept from getting to Daniel. Now, we know that the human prince of Persia and his armies could do nothing to stop and angel and therefore, the prince of Persia was referring to the evil angel and his angels that was the power behind the human prince of Persia. In the same way, this angel in the Abyss is referred to as the eighth king, because he will be the power behind the antichrist.

Consider what is said of Judas Iscariot. (Acts 1:25) "That he (Matthias) may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place. " Parenthesis mine.

(John 17:12) "...I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the Scripture might be fulfilled."

(John 6:70) "Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?"

Judas is the son of perdition.
Judas goes to his own place.
Judas is a devil.

Could this not be the one who rises out of the pit, who also goes into perdition? (Rev. 17:8) The seed promise concerning Christ in (Gen. 3:15) resulted in the God/Man, Jesus Christ. Why shouldn't the serpents 'seed' result in a devil/man?

I find this very interesting.

Quantrill
In saying that Judas went to his own place was referring to him going to Sheol/Hades. Also, the term " son of perdition" is not specific to referring to the man of lawlessness. Once a human being goes into Sheol/hades, there is no coming back. For all of those who end up there will be resurrected at the end of the millennial kingdom and will stand before God at the great white throne judgment. What I am saying is that, though both the man of lawlessness and Judas are referred to as "son of destruction" it does not mean that it is speaking about the same person. It's just a phrase, a designation, a moniker. Son of destruction could be applied to anyone who dies in their sins.

Judas is the son of perdition
= Judas is a man who will be destroyed (separated from God in the LOF) because of his betrayal of Jesus
Judas goes to his own place = His own place is Sheol/Hades where all the spirits of all the unrighteous go
Judas is a devil = Judas is a devil not in the sense of being a fallen angel, but because of his betrayal against Jesus. In other words, the scripture is not saying that Judas is a literal devil, but is in reference of his betrayal against the Lord.

We must be careful not to pigeonhole words or phrases in scripture
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,376
113
#91
I'm not sure that is an axiom. After all, hell is prepared for the devil and his angels, and people will go there also.

But though there is evil behind the beast, and it is angelic, yes, I believe (Rev. 17:8,11) clearly identify a man as the beast who is coming out of the pit, and shall go into perdition.

Consider what is said of Judas Iscariot. (Acts 1:25) "That he (Matthias) may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place. " Parenthesis mine.

(John 17:12) "...I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the Scripture might be fulfilled."

(John 6:70) "Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?"

Judas is the son of perdition.
Judas goes to his own place.
Judas is a devil.

Could this not be the one who rises out of the pit, who also goes into perdition? (Rev. 17:8) The seed promise concerning Christ in (Gen. 3:15) resulted in the God/Man, Jesus Christ. Why shouldn't the serpents 'seed' result in a devil/man?

I find this very interesting.

Quantrill
Also, regarding your reference to Judas as being referred to as "the son of perdition" as being relevant to the beast, in that same frame of thinking, do you think that everywhere that the designation "son of man" is used is specifically speaking about Jesus? If you said yes you'd be wrong. For Ezekiel is referred to as "son of man" no less than 84 times in the book of Ezekiel. And there are other prophets referred to with the same designation. My point being is that, we should not pigeonhole words or phase as being specific. The same is true regarding the man of lawlessness and Judas as both being referred to as "the son of destruction."
 

Quantrill

Well-known member
Sep 20, 2018
988
300
63
#92
Also, regarding your reference to Judas as being referred to as "the son of perdition" as being relevant to the beast, in that same frame of thinking, do you think that everywhere that the designation "son of man" is used is specifically speaking about Jesus? If you said yes you'd be wrong. For Ezekiel is referred to as "son of man" no less than 84 times in the book of Ezekiel. And there are other prophets referred to with the same designation. My point being is that, we should not pigeonhole words or phase as being specific. The same is true regarding the man of lawlessness and Judas as both being referred to as "the son of destruction."
Well, I disagree with your post's for the reasons I already gave. I think you use the word 'pigeon hole' as a ready answer to those things which you disagree with but cannot necessarily prove.

I notice you did not address the seed promises in (Gen. 3:15). So, address them. Please don't use the phrase 'pigeon hole'.

Quantrill
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
5,928
685
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#93
lol,Well if plural,,if singular they live in the Himalayas...
Lol.

It's not any easy verse for sure bro:

Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

It has lead to lots of speculation - it must have (may have been) decipherable to the seven churches mentioned in the beginning.
 

louis

Senior Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,102
86
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#94
Lol.

It's not any easy verse for sure bro:

Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

It has lead to lots of speculation - it must have (may have been) decipherable to the seven churches mentioned in the beginning.
Realizing the beast who rises from the bottomless pit is another metaphor for the beast who rises from the sea who shall have a 42 month reign at the end of the age;...when Revelation 17:10-11 then describes the beast that was, having five of its seven heads having fallen when the beast rises (from the bottomless pit/sea); I then realize the beasts having been (was), is in reference to the Lord describing the end of the age from the beginning.


Revelation 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
8,048
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#95
It's odd that it is explained as the judgment of the great whore(Rev.17:1) but she doesn't have(or it seems different) the mark of the beast(Rev 13:16) but has another instead(Rev.17:5) and also that the beast from Daniel do not show a woman riding them/it.
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
8,048
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#97
...was and is not(so existed prior to that time-frame), when did the Papacy exist prior to Rev.17:8 being written?
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
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#98
Revelation says the whore is 1st Jerusalem "thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee".
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
8,048
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#99
Revelation says the whore is 1st Jerusalem "thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee".
Then Rev. 17:8 would have to be written after it was destroyed in ad70 because it is in the pit at that time and would afterwards ascend out of it.
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
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Then Rev. 17:8 would have to be written after it was destroyed in ad70 because it is in the pit at that time and would afterwards ascend out of it.
Is this related to your thinking about "make an image"?