The Rapture of the Church is after the Tribulation

[Locutus]

thank you,

Irenaeus(140-202ad approx) explains this in AH book 5 chapter 28 paragraph 3 http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103528.htm I am not Catholic but use there source(easier to search) but if its uncomfortable here is a different source http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book5.html

Why don't you just copy and paste the relevant "bit" bro?

 

[iamsoandso]

Ya - I'm not in that camp - I'm in a canoe paddling against a futurist current of obfuscation View attachment 191700



So when do you think the end of the age (of Matt 24:3) came?

We're still tilling the soil and it still brings thorns and thistles by the sweat of our brow so we're still in the six days. This though was not what day they were asking him about they were asking about what he said about the temple,his 1st coming and the end of that age. The remaining ages spoken of Matt.12:32,Hebrews 6:5,Hebrews 2:5 ect. were also to unfold.

 

[iamsoandso]

Why don't you just copy and paste the relevant "bit" bro?

lol, you don't understand how difficult it is for me to do this much( I make a lot of mistakes,poof read,and then hit send),I cant use a cell phone or split a post and answer it like I see you all do.

 

[Locutus]

lol, you don't understand how difficult it is for me to do this much( I make a lot of mistakes,poof read,and then hit send),I cant use a cell phone or split a post and answer it like I see you all do.

Ok - no worries bro.

 

[Endoscopy]

Just watched a debate about this topic. 2 videos and the 3 different views of when Jesus returns. Pre trib, mid trib and post trib. All 3 views backed up by scripture. At the end the moderator said maybe God made it obscure for a reason. This is the problem eschatology has. Too many ways to understand what the Bible is stating. Therefore Christians will understand it when it happens and not before. They all agreed that a new temple will have to be built first. In Israel that is currently a plan to rebuild the temple on top of the excavated site of the first 2 temples. They found Gion Spring, the alter, and a pool to cleanse themselves before sacrificing a lamb without blemish. There was even a hole through the corner of the stone part of the wall to tie the lamb to while getting ready.

 

[iamsoandso]

Just watched a debate about this topic. 2 videos and the 3 different views of when Jesus returns. Pre trib, mid trib and post trib. All 3 views backed up by scripture. At the end the moderator said maybe God made it obscure for a reason. This is the problem eschatology has. Too many ways to understand what the Bible is stating. Therefore Christians will understand it when it happens and not before. They all agreed that a new temple will have to be built first. In Israel that is currently a plan to rebuild the temple on top of the excavated site of the first 2 temples. They found Gion Spring, the alter, and a pool to cleanse themselves before sacrificing a lamb without blemish. There was even a hole through the corner of the stone part of the wall to tie the lamb to while getting ready.

That's curious though to me in that without a "man of sin" riseing up and claiming to be God in (a temple) do you think Jesus will return and rule (from it) first or that the man of sin will come before that and rise up in it?

 

[Locutus]

That's curious though to me in that without a "man of sin" riseing up and claiming to be God in (a temple) do you think Jesus will return and rule (from it) first or that the man of sin will come before that and rise up in it?

How do we know this (sitting in the temple) did not happen during the time leading up to 66-70 AD bro?

 

[iamsoandso]

How do we know this (sitting in the temple) did not happen during the time leading up to 66-70 AD bro?

Josephus wars book 2 http://penelope.uchicago.edu/josephus/war-2.html The Romans wanted to have their images set up but the Jews refused,said they would have to kill them all first then made good on it,revolted,committed impiety to Caesar and were all killed for it(referred to as Jewish revolt 66-70ad). It takes about two hours to read wars 2 but it proves the Jews absolutely did not worship Rome or Caesar as God.

 

[Locutus]

Josephus wars book 2 http://penelope.uchicago.edu/josephus/war-2.html The Romans wanted to have their images set up but the Jews refused,said they would have to kill them all first then made good on it,revolted,committed impiety to Caesar and were all killed for it(referred to as Jewish revolt 66-70ad). It takes about two hours to read wars 2 but it proves the Jews absolutely did not worship Rome or Caesar as God.

But how do we know it was a Roman and not one of the Jewish Leaders?

 

[iamsoandso]

But how do we know it was a Roman and not one of the Jewish Leaders?

lol, what you suggest I'll listen,already read wars 2?

 

[Locutus]

lol, what you suggest I'll listen,already read wars 2?

A fair bit of it, especially when you bring it up.

I dunno, we don;t really have much info about the inner workings of leadership - when Paul's says

2 Th 2:4 who is opposing and is raising himself up above all called God or worshipped, so that he in the sanctuary of God as God hath sat down, shewing himself off that he is God -- the day doth not come.

How literal do we take this - could he mean some one in the Jewish leadership claiming full authority like God. Jesus was accused of making himself God by his teaching and claiming authority for the kingdom.

Of course I'm trying to fit this into a 1st century AD scenario as usual

 

[iamsoandso]

A fair bit of it, especially when you bring it up.

I dunno, we don;t really have much info about the inner workings of leadership - when Paul's says

2 Th 2:4 who is opposing and is raising himself up above all called God or worshipped, so that he in the sanctuary of God as God hath sat down, shewing himself off that he is God -- the day doth not come.

How literal do we take this - could he mean some one in the Jewish leadership claiming full authority like God. Jesus was accused of making himself God by his teaching and claiming authority for the kingdom.

Of course I'm trying to fit this into a 1st century AD scenario as usual View attachment 191711

Jesus returning and destroying himself with the brightness of his own coming don't seem to fit so who could it be that Jesus destroys with his coming? Or maybe I misunderstood you.

 

[Locutus]

Jesus returning and destroying himself with the brightness of his own coming don't seem to fit so who could it be that Jesus destroys with his coming? Or maybe I misunderstood you.

Not really lol - Jesus was accused of "making himself" God.

John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

This could apply to a Jewish leader claiming authority as God effectively "sitting in the temple of God".

Think about this, no Jew back then or in some supposed future temple would "swallow" some man sitting in the temple calling himself God, not even as Messiah or King.

So to read it literally does not make a lot of sense.

 

[iamsoandso]

Not really lol - Jesus was accused of "making himself" God.

John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

This could apply to a Jewish leader claiming authority as God effectively "sitting in the temple of God".

Think about this, no Jew back then or in some supposed future temple would "swallow" some man sitting in the temple calling himself God, not even as Messiah or King.

So to read it literally does not make a lot of sense.

I agree with that. If Jesus would have rose up and done the same miracles he did do but then overthrew Rome and the rest of the world and said none of these stones will ever be moved they would though.

 

[Locutus]

I agree with that. If Jesus would have rose up and done the same miracles he did do but then overthrew Rome and the rest of the world and said none of these stones will ever be moved they would though.

When you say "rose up" do you mean after his resurrection or "rose up" to over throw Rome while he was still alive?

 

[iamsoandso]

When you say "rose up" do you mean after his resurrection or "rose up" to over throw Rome while he was still alive?

It's just an analogy. Israel was scared to death in Exodus 20 to have him that close and talking to them and all. They it seem's wanted an substitute instead.

 

[Locutus]

It's just an analogy. Israel was scared to death in Exodus 20 to have him that close and talking to them and all. They it seem's wanted an substitute instead.

Right, but how is the "man of sin" going to pull off some God imitation - a man may have done so back in a totally theocratic none scientific society back then.

 

[iamsoandso]

Right, but how is the "man of sin" going to pull off some God imitation - a man may have done so back in a totally theocratic none scientific society back then.

And deceived the whole earth into believing he is God and we cant name him?

 

[Locutus]

And deceived the whole earth into believing he is God and we cant name him?

What is puzzling is the silence after the war - no further writings by apostles or very close associates - what happened to Luke? I don't really put much stock in the Ante-Nicene "fathers" writings.

 

[iamsoandso]

What is puzzling is the silence after the war - no further writings by apostles or very close associates - what happened to Luke? I don't really put much stock in the Ante-Nicene "fathers" writings.

lol,Like I said back when I was speaking of the Apostolic fathers and their deciples not many see it like that in 2018. They said in several letters in the first 200-300 years "let them.." boast/prove their Apostolic line as could Polycarp from John and Clement of Rome from Peter ect....

I cant see why they would not been biblicaly associated(Barnabas,1Clement,Shepard of Hermas) seeing all three are named in the bible but they are not regarded as such. There must have been the same argument after about 300ad because they mentioned Polycarp,Clement ect. as traceable back to Apostles as if the provable original thinking was getting lost.