Abra Cadabra

CharliRenee · Dec 9, 2018

So how were the miracles performed by the magicians to match the miracles done while Moses was dealing with the hardened heart of Pharaoh? I reckon that they were rigged to look like miracles, or that satan Hisself had a hand in this.

I know that it isn't clear in Exodus but was wondering if you guys have any more to add.

Nehemiah6 · Dec 9, 2018

CharliRenee said:

No they were not *rigged*. They were actual Satanic miracles. This was not sleight of hand or Abra Cadabra.

Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders (2 Thess 2:9).

CharliRenee · Dec 9, 2018

Nehemiah6 said:

Oh well that verse about says it all, huh? His lying wonders. Tyou

Nehemiah6 · Dec 9, 2018

CharliRenee said:

As the next verse in 2 Thess says, *lying wonders* are meant to deceive the world into thinking that the Antichrist is indeed Christ-- "with all deceivableness of unrighteousness".

Satan's primary weapon has been, presently is, and will be deception. The Antichrist will proclaim that he is the Christ (the Messiah for Orthodox Jews) and the world will believe him because of these miracles.

dcontroversal · Dec 9, 2018

CharliRenee said:

I would say the latter.....Satan had a hand and note, they could only match a few....

Something to ponder....in the end those of the devil will have the power to work ALL miracles, signs and LYING WONDERS to the extent that even some of the elect will be deceived <<the grammar in the Greek supports this even though the English does not convey this truth.....

IF MIRACLES are still happening by GOD'S hand and the workers of the DEVIL can perform ALL MIRACLES, SIGNS AND LYING WONDERS..how will it be possible to distinguish between them?

Think about that for a momemt and then ponder the words...cease, vanish and fail as found in 1st Corinthians 13!!

CharliRenee · Dec 9, 2018

dcontroversal said:

I'm trying to see how you R tying 1 Corinthians 13 here. I just read your response though so in fairness I haven't thought about it enough. Hmmmm...interesting.

dcontroversal · Dec 9, 2018

CharliRenee said:

Point being...most deny, down play, reject or dismiss the words that deal with the spiritual gifts listed....today we see many making a big hoopla about "miracles" even though the bible points to a time frame when the children of the devil will be the ones working ALL MIRACLES, SIGNS AND LYING WONDERS....

All is conclusive of All when used in context.....IF All miracles, signs and lying wonders are being worked by the children of the devil and through his power....what does that say about those claiming their miracle is of or from God....? Something to ponder....!!

CharliRenee · Dec 10, 2018

dcontroversal said:

Point being...most deny, down play, reject or dismiss the words that deal with the spiritual gifts listed....today we see many making a big hoopla about "miracles" even though the bible points to a time frame when the children of the devil will be the ones working ALL MIRACLES, SIGNS AND LYING WONDERS....

All is conclusive of All when used in context.....IF All miracles, signs and lying wonders are being worked by the children of the devil and through his power....what does that say about those claiming their miracle is of or from God....? Something to ponder....!!

So we better guard our hearts with the breast plate of righteousness and be wise as a serpent lest we be fooled.

garee · Dec 10, 2018

Miracles are miracles nothing more and nothing less. God is nothing less.

It's not abnormal or unusual for God to perform miracles.

Too much emphasis is like not enough.

Take a breath enjoy a miracle . Have a baby enjoy a miracle. look into the eyes of a loved one, enjoy a miracle.Receive the gift of understanding form the word of God enjoy a miracle . etc

It is when men try to make them into a sign and wonder... or a sign that causes a wonder (faith issue) to confirm something that is not visible . This is where the rubber hits the road.

God performs miracles all day every day. Healing whosoever he has mercy on. There are no signs needed to confirm those who believe prophecy (the word of God) They have a understanding what it means to walk by faith (the eternal will)

When he sent Moses as an apostle who was trusting prophecy as to the four hundred years they would be in bondage spoken to Abraham before. Moses refused to go . So then God sent Moses with "two signs" to confirm their unbelief as to not hearing prophecy.

There is used the rod of Aaron used to divide the believers from those who do not believe the word of God (prophecy) the rebels.

Knowing beforehand they would not believe the first "sign of rebellion". He would bring the second sign pointing to a "matter of life and death" . Dead flesh like leprosy (hand was leprous as snow.) to show there is no sensitively to the word of God pricking their consciences . Leprosy the disease of no pain or sensitivity used against them as a way of judging those who refuse to hear prophecy.
Continuing with the third sign to show their rebellion in refusing to hear prophecy

Exodus 4:1-10 King James Version (KJV) And Moses answered and said, But, behold, they will not believe me, nor hearken unto my voice: for they will say, The Lord hath not appeared unto thee.And the Lord said unto him, What is that in thine hand? And he said, A rod. And he said, Cast it on the ground. And he cast it on the ground, and it became a serpent; and Moses fled from before it. And the Lord said unto Moses, Put forth thine hand, and take it by the tail. And he put forth his hand, and caught it, and it became a rod in his hand:That they may believe that the Lord God of their fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath appeared unto thee.And the Lord said furthermore unto him, Put now thine hand into thy bosom. And he put his hand into his bosom: and when he took it out, behold, his hand was leprous as snow.And he said, Put thine hand into thy bosom again. And he put his hand into his bosom again; and plucked it out of his bosom, and, behold, it was turned again as his other flesh.And it shall come to pass, if they will not believe thee, neither hearken to the voice of the first sign, that they will believe the voice of the latter sign.And it shall come to pass, if they will not believe also these two signs, neither hearken unto thy voice, that thou shalt take of the water of the river, and pour it upon the dry land: and the water which thou takest out of the river shall become blood upon the dry landExodus 4: 1-10

You could ask seeing they will hear the voice of the second or latter sign.... believe what? They will die because God works to will it just as he worked the nand of Moses as the author of life..

Miri · Dec 10, 2018

I think it was probably some sort of conjuring trick, (there were a couple
of others too the magicians did). Maybe combined with some sort of
snake charming which people still do in the Middle East.

The thing that I was wondering is why did God pick that sign specifically,
of turning the snake into a stick etc. Why not something else that the magicians
couldn’t replicate. I think God deliberately picked a trick he knew the
magicians could do, so pharaoh would harden his heart.

If the Isrealites has been able to leave right from the start they would have just
left with their own belongings, not a lot. But because pharoah would not let them
go, it was all the more dramatic when he eventually did. Plus the Egyptians by that
time were practically begging them to leave and gave them everything they wanted and
needed.

Kind of like getting paid for all the years of work. They also needed those
provisions later to build the tabanacle.

Exodus 12:33-36 NKJV
[33] And the Egyptians urged the people, that they might send them
out of the land in haste. For they said, "We shall all be dead." [34]
So the people took their dough before it was leavened, having
their kneading bowls bound up in their clothes on their shoulders.

[35] Now the children of Israel had done according to the word of
Moses, and they had asked from the Egyptians articles of silver, articles
of gold, and clothing. [36] And the LORD had given the people favor in
the sight of the Egyptians, so that they granted them what they requested.
Thus they plundered the Egyptians.

garee · Dec 10, 2018

dcontroversal said:

I think that to no extent will any of the elect be deceived as you said 1st Corinthians 13. They are warned beforehand(told you before ) that new revelations would cease and therefore false prophecy as new will show the believe or faith is of or in respect to men seen and not the Holy Spirit not seen, as properly trying the spirits to see if they are of God or men seen.

And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, "if" it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Mathew 16:22-23

Satan will be bringing signs (that seen) as or in resect wonders (the unseen) until the last day when he is cast into the second death .

What is even more terrible of a tribulation then believing the lying wonders is that God can lock us in because we believed him not in the first place. Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit not seen is not forgivable.

God will as in the same time in the twinkling of the eye send a strong delusion for those to believe the lie confirming their unbelief (no faith )

Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying "wonders",And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them "strong delusion", that they should believe a lie:2 Thessalonians 2 :9-11

CharliRenee · Dec 10, 2018

garee said:

Miracles are miracles nothing more and nothing less. God is nothing less.

It's not abnormal or unusual for God to perform miracles.

Too much emphasis is like not enough.

Take a breath enjoy a miracle . Have a baby enjoy a miracle. look into the eyes of a loved one, enjoy a miracle.Receive the gift of understanding form the word of God enjoy a miracle . etc

It is when men try to make them into a sign and wonder... or a sign that causes a wonder (faith issue) to confirm something that is not visible . This is where the rubber hits the road.

God performs miracles all day every day. Healing whosoever he has mercy on. There are no signs needed to confirm those who believe prophecy (the word of God) They have a understanding what it means to walk by faith (the eternal will)

When he sent Moses as an apostle who was trusting prophecy as to the four hundred years they would be in bondage spoken to Abraham before. Moses refused to go . So then God sent Moses with "two signs" to confirm their unbelief as to not hearing prophecy.

There is used the rod of Aaron used to divide the believers from those who do not believe the word of God (prophecy) the rebels.

Knowing beforehand they would not believe the first "sign of rebellion". He would bring the second sign pointing to a "matter of life and death" . Dead flesh like leprosy (hand was leprous as snow.) to show there is no sensitively to the word of God pricking their consciences . Leprosy the disease of no pain or sensitivity used against them as a way of judging those who refuse to hear prophecy.
Continuing with the third sign to show their rebellion in refusing to hear prophecy

Exodus 4:1-10 King James Version (KJV) And Moses answered and said, But, behold, they will not believe me, nor hearken unto my voice: for they will say, The Lord hath not appeared unto thee.And the Lord said unto him, What is that in thine hand? And he said, A rod. And he said, Cast it on the ground. And he cast it on the ground, and it became a serpent; and Moses fled from before it. And the Lord said unto Moses, Put forth thine hand, and take it by the tail. And he put forth his hand, and caught it, and it became a rod in his hand:That they may believe that the Lord God of their fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath appeared unto thee.And the Lord said furthermore unto him, Put now thine hand into thy bosom. And he put his hand into his bosom: and when he took it out, behold, his hand was leprous as snow.And he said, Put thine hand into thy bosom again. And he put his hand into his bosom again; and plucked it out of his bosom, and, behold, it was turned again as his other flesh.And it shall come to pass, if they will not believe thee, neither hearken to the voice of the first sign, that they will believe the voice of the latter sign.And it shall come to pass, if they will not believe also these two signs, neither hearken unto thy voice, that thou shalt take of the water of the river, and pour it upon the dry land: and the water which thou takest out of the river shall become blood upon the dry landExodus 4: 1-10

You could ask seeing they will hear the voice of the second or latter sign.... believe what? They will die because God works to will it just as he worked the nand of Moses as the author of life..

His miracles are always concievable, its who he is. The magicians not so much. But it is the corrupted handy work of Satan.

dcontroversal · Dec 10, 2018

garee said:

I think that to no extent will any of the elect be deceived as you said 1st Corinthians 13. They are warned beforehand(told you before ) that new revelations would cease and therefore false prophecy as new will show the believe or faith is of or in respect to men seen and not the Holy Spirit not seen, as properly trying the spirits to see if they are of God or men seen.

And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, "if" it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Mathew 16:22-23

Satan will be bringing signs (that seen) as or in resect wonders (the unseen) until the last day when he is cast into the second death .

What is even more terrible of a tribulation then believing the lying wonders is that God can lock us in because we believed him not in the first place. Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit not seen is not forgivable.

God will as in the same time in the twinkling of the eye send a strong delusion for those to believe the lie confirming their unbelief (no faith )

Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying "wonders",And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them "strong delusion", that they should believe a lie:2 Thessalonians 2 :9-11

Sorry....the Greek says something different than the English....it is possible that some of the elect will be deceived...just as they are to this day...I humbly suggest you look the words up and study it from the Greek and you are conflating two different contexts...the delusion is sent concerning the MAN of SIN...NOT THE WORKERS of all signs, miracles and lying wonders.....

dcontroversal · Dec 10, 2018

garee said:

I think that to no extent will any of the elect be deceived as you said 1st Corinthians 13. They are warned beforehand(told you before ) that new revelations would cease and therefore false prophecy as new will show the believe or faith is of or in respect to men seen and not the Holy Spirit not seen, as properly trying the spirits to see if they are of God or men seen.

And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, "if" it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Mathew 16:22-23

Satan will be bringing signs (that seen) as or in resect wonders (the unseen) until the last day when he is cast into the second death .

What is even more terrible of a tribulation then believing the lying wonders is that God can lock us in because we believed him not in the first place. Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit not seen is not forgivable.

God will as in the same time in the twinkling of the eye send a strong delusion for those to believe the lie confirming their unbelief (no faith )

Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying "wonders",And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them "strong delusion", that they should believe a lie:2 Thessalonians 2 :9-11

....if it were possible, they shall deceive (ὤστε πλανῆσαι εἰ δυνατὸν) the very (καὶ, even) elect. The Authorized Version seems to make our Lord imply that such seduction was absolutely impossible. The translation ought to run, as in the Revised Version, so as to lead astray, if possible even the elect, signifying the difficulty, not the impossibility, of drawing them away from the truth. "

posthuman · Dec 10, 2018

CharliRenee said:

"breastplate of righteousness"

here's something additionally for us to ponder:

But since we belong to the day, let us be sober,

putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet.

(1 Thessalonians 5:8)

"righteousness" ~ "faith and love"

posthuman · Dec 10, 2018

CharliRenee said:

we see in Exodus that the power a sorcerer may exhibit is limited in scope. Jannes & Jambres themselves declared that the evidence they saw proved to them that the power at work through Moses was "the finger of God" ((Ex. 8:19)) -- they could produce frogs ((Ex.8:7)) but not gnats ((Ex. 8:18)) even tho they did try. they apparently didn't know that they couldn't? a sorcerer doesn't have power of his own. he uses power. and neither do we - but when we have strength, it is not us, but Christ living in us

CharliRenee · Dec 10, 2018

posthuman said:

You know that you are right, that the breast plate of righteousness is not vague, that yes, we know what that is...Love and Faith. And yes, important to keep them active, not just concepts, and that helmet of hope is so important in preventing head injuries, lol.

CharliRenee · Dec 10, 2018

Miri said:

I think it was probably some sort of conjuring trick, (there were a couple
of others too the magicians did). Maybe combined with some sort of
snake charming which people still do in the Middle East.

The thing that I was wondering is why did God pick that sign specifically,
of turning the snake into a stick etc. Why not something else that the magicians
couldn’t replicate. I think God deliberately picked a trick he knew the
magicians could do, so pharaoh would harden his heart.

If the Isrealites has been able to leave right from the start they would have just
left with their own belongings, not a lot. But because pharoah would not let them
go, it was all the more dramatic when he eventually did. Plus the Egyptians by that
time were practically begging them to leave and gave them everything they wanted and
needed.

Kind of like getting paid for all the years of work. They also needed those
provisions later to build the tabanacle.

Exodus 12:33-36 NKJV
[33] And the Egyptians urged the people, that they might send them
out of the land in haste. For they said, "We shall all be dead." [34]
So the people took their dough before it was leavened, having
their kneading bowls bound up in their clothes on their shoulders.

[35] Now the children of Israel had done according to the word of
Moses, and they had asked from the Egyptians articles of silver, articles
of gold, and clothing. [36] And the LORD had given the people favor in
the sight of the Egyptians, so that they granted them what they requested.
Thus they plundered the Egyptians.

Very insightful from start to finish on your comment. I never considered this... I think God deliberately picked a trick he knew the magicians could do, so pharaoh would harden his heart.

Miri · Dec 10, 2018

CharliRenee said:

It’s just the way my brain works, it seems to prefer circles instead of straight lines. Lol

reneweddaybyday · Dec 10, 2018

Miri said:

In reality, the children of Israel walked out with the riches brought into Egypt under Joseph's ministry.

Genesis 41:56-57 And the famine was over all the face of the earth: And Joseph opened all the storehouses, and sold unto the Egyptians; and the famine waxed sore in the land of Egypt. And all countries came into Egypt to Joseph for to buy corn; because that the famine was so sore in all lands.

The Egyptians were only caretakers for a time ...

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