Abra Cadabra

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Whom he foreknew.

What did he foreknow about them? Did he forknew they would believe? Did he forknow somethign else?

I believe he forknew his own will (whoever sees and believes) and chose to elect based on that knowledge

The issue here is You can’t say your right. And I can not prove I am right. So as for this aspect. We are left at a stalemate. (We interpret based on our beief system) so can We can attack each other. Or admit, We have to look at other things to prove our point.

He did not foreknow their actions, my friend, He foreknew them.

From Mounce’s Reverse-Greek Interlinear...


προγινώσκω (proginōskō)

to know beforehand, to be previously acquainted with, Acts 26:5; 2 Pet. 3:17; to determine on beforehand, to foreordain, 1 Pet. 1:20; in NT, from the Hebrew, to foreknow, to appoint as the subject of future privileges, Rom. 8:29; 11:2

What you are showing is that it is you who has people being special and having God playing favorites. You are saying God looked through the corridors of time and foreknew their actions(not what foreknowledge actually teaches) and elected them accordingly. So God based His election upon what they did, thereby making Him a God who shows favoritism.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

And who are those who are to be saved my friend? Those He chose from before the creation of the world(Eph. 1:4).

And what was Gods will my friend

That he who sees and believed (faith comes by hearing) (Jesus claimed this was the will of God, so he chose based on this will) at least that is how I see it. I can see it no other way.

That is the bases by which men were chosen.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

He did not foreknow their actions, my friend, He foreknew them.

From Mounce’s Reverse-Greek Interlinear...


προγινώσκω (proginōskō)

to know beforehand, to be previously acquainted with, Acts 26:5; 2 Pet. 3:17; to determine on beforehand, to foreordain, 1 Pet. 1:20; in NT, from the Hebrew, to foreknow, to appoint as the subject of future privileges, Rom. 8:29; 11:2

What you are showing is that it is you who has people being special and having God playing favorites. You are saying God looked through the corridors of time and foreknew their actions(not what foreknowledge actually teaches) and elected them accordingly. So God based His election upon what they did, thereby making Him a God who shows favoritism.

I see this but this is your view.

It may be right. But I want further proof. And you can not offer any..

To me, he chose based on his will. What is Gods will?

John 6: For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Here we have jesus saying that those whome God gave him are those who see and believe. Just as jesus said in John 17, those who recieved his word and believed (the ones who recieved his word and did not believe walked away in unbelief)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

He did not foreknow their actions, my friend, He foreknew them.

PS...
Faith is not an action. it is a response to someone elses action. In this case, Gods..

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Thats what true love does

It does not force. It offers.
God offered man perfect harmony in the garden. Man chose to say no

In the same token, God offers man perfect life today. Will we chose yes or no.

Your right, he chose you based on who he is. He claims to be a god of love, And he claims that true loves will die for his enemy. And God chose to do this..
Again, WHo goes home justified?

The pharisee (the one who makes himself God)

Or the tax collector (the one who responded to Gods call, and out of total inability and hope. Called out to Jesus..

I am arguing Gods love.. Is he a god of true agape love, like he demands us to be (loving even our worse enemy)

if not. Satan is right.. and we have all been duped.

God does not force anyone my friend. He gives them the new birth, and they love Him in response.

7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.(1 John 4)

This verse could not be any clearer if John tried. Those who love God have been born of God. That is why the new birth happens and then them choosing God. There very instant they love Him is the very same moment He gave them the new birth.


11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.(John 1)

Now, in verse 12, it says “But as many as received Him...” Who were these people who received Him?

Those born of blood, Abraham’s fleshly lineage? No.
Those born of the will of the flesh? No
Those born of the will of men? No.
Those born of God? Yes.

The new birth precedes any positive move towards God my friend. People do not move towards God and then He receives them. He first gives them the new birth and then they love Him.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

And what was Gods will my friend

That he who sees and believed (faith comes by hearing) (Jesus claimed this was the will of God, so he chose based on this will) at least that is how I see it. I can see it no other way.

That is the bases by which men were chosen.

Here is God’s will my friend...

39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.(John 6)

In this passage, Jesus is confronting a bunch of self-righteous Jews. Those He chose, He will not lose one of them. These also will He raise on the last day. So if He chose everybody, then everybody would be saved, because those He chose, He will also raise on the last day.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

God does not force anyone my friend. He gives them the new birth, and they love Him in response.

7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.(1 John 4)

This verse could not be any clearer if John tried. Those who love God have been born of God. That is why the new birth happens and then them choosing God. There very instant they love Him is the very same moment He gave them the new birth.


11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.(John 1)

Now, in verse 12, it says “But as many as received Him...” Who were these people who received Him?

Those born of blood, Abraham’s fleshly lineage? No.
Those born of the will of the flesh? No
Those born of the will of men? No.
Those born of God? Yes.

The new birth precedes any positive move towards God my friend. People do not move towards God and then He receives them. He first gives them the new birth and then they love Him.

If your right, yes he does. I see it no other way.

According to fatalism. God raises someone from the dead. Then whether they wanted to or not. They are saved

On the other hand God does not raise others from the dead. Thus forcing them to never be able to recieve his word.

I can take no credit for my salvation. I did nothing to save myself. God did all the work. I just responded in faith not knowing if God was right or not (faith is based on things not seen)

I love God because he even gave me an opportunity. God did not have to give the the opportunity, he could have let me live my life in sin. And never offer me his gracious gift..

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

And what was Gods will my friend

That he who sees and believed (faith comes by hearing) (Jesus claimed this was the will of God, so he chose based on this will) at least that is how I see it. I can see it no other way.

That is the bases by which men were chosen.

Again my friend, you are putting the onus on man, not God. You are saying the cross makes people salable, but does not save 100%(universal atonement has this hurdle) of those He died for. He did His part, now they just do theirs.

In our view, the cross saves 100% of those the cross was intended to save.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Here is God’s will my friend...

39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.(John 6)

In this passage, Jesus is confronting a bunch of self-righteous Jews. Those He chose, He will not lose one of them. These also will He raise on the last day. So if He chose everybody, then everybody would be saved, because those He chose, He will also raise on the last day.

You left the rest of the passage out. You can not do that my friend, We do not pick verses out of Context.
Jesus answered the context by the next verse (wheoever sees and believes) Even peter understood when Jesus offered him a chance to leave also. Where are we to go. YOU HAVE THE WORDS. And we have come to KNOW AND BELIEVE.

Peter did not understand the gospel yet. But he wanted what Jesus was offering.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Again my friend, you are putting the onus on man, not God. You are saying the cross makes people salable, but does not save 100%(universal atonement has this hurdle) of those He died for. He did His part, now they just do theirs.

In our view, the cross saves 100% of those the cross was intended to save.

Lol. Your trying to make faith a work of man, its not.

It’s a work of God.

But God will not believe for you, All he can do is break you down and get you to see.. many are called few are chosen..

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

If your right, yes he does. I see it no other way.

According to fatalism. God raises someone from the dead. Then whether they wanted to or not. They are saved

On the other hand God does not raise others from the dead. Thus forcing them to never be able to recieve his word.

I can take no credit for my salvation. I did nothing to save myself. God did all the work. I just responded in faith not knowing if God was right or not (faith is based on things not seen)

I love God because he even gave me an opportunity. God did not have to give the the opportunity, he could have let me live my life in sin. And never offer me his gracious gift..

Man was dead in sin. Dead in sin is ‘nekros’ which means a literal dead corpse. They were physically alive, but physically dead. They are a natural man(this means they are without the Spirit) will not accept the things of the Spirit of God because he considers them foolishness, and he also will not understand them because they are Spiritually appraised. That is why they need raised from the dead before they can do anything positive such as moving towards God.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

You left the rest of the passage out. You can not do that my friend, We do not pick verses out of Context.
Jesus answered the context by the next verse (wheoever sees and believes) Even peter understood when Jesus offered him a chance to leave also. Where are we to go. YOU HAVE THE WORDS. And we have come to KNOW AND BELIEVE.

Peter did not understand the gospel yet. But he wanted what Jesus was offering.

Look my friend, I left nothing out, just focused on that one verse. Again, who are those who see and believe? His elect. Jesus even said to some “26 But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep(John 10:26). I know that is a different chapter, but it remains the same way. Those who come to saving faith are His sheep, my friend.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Lol. Your trying to make faith a work of man, its not.

It’s a work of God.

But God will not believe for you, All he can do is break you down and get you to see.. many are called few are chosen..

Faith is not a work of man, but is a gift of God. Please do not misrepresent me again, my friend. Nowhere have I said faith is a work of man.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Man was dead in sin. Dead in sin is ‘nekros’ which means a literal dead corpse. They were physically alive, but physically dead. They are a natural man(this means they are without the Spirit) will not accept the things of the Spirit of God because he considers them foolishness, and he also will not understand them because they are Spiritually appraised. That is why they need raised from the dead before they can do anything positive such as moving towards God.

They do not have to accept the doctrines of God

All they have to do is listen to the HS, who is convicting them of sin righteousness and judgment, Listen to the word. And believe.

Thats why God gets credit. Not man. Because man did not teach himself. The HS did.

People who go to hell go to hell because they said no to the HS (unbelief)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Look my friend, I left nothing out, just focused on that one verse. Again, who are those who see and believe? His elect. Jesus even said to some “26 But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep(John 10:26). I know that is a different chapter, but it remains the same way. Those who come to saving faith are His sheep, my friend.

This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

You can not seperate the two. They are one and the same.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Faith is not a work of man, but is a gift of God. Please do not misrepresent me again, my friend. Nowhere have I said faith is a work of man.

When you claim I am making salvation an Onus of man, You are making the claim faith is the work of man.

I am not misrepresenting you. I am just saying, you need to think about what you are saying.


I believe man is saved by GRACE through FAITH. Not by works.

If you say I saved myself. You are saying faith is a work of man.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

When you claim I am making salvation an Onus of man, You are making the claim faith is the work of man.

I am not misrepresenting you. I am just saying, you need to think about what you are saying.


I believe man is saved by GRACE through FAITH. Not by works.

If you say I saved myself. You are saying faith is a work of man.

Faith is a gift of God and is also a fruit of the Spirit. When one has faith, they have a fruit of the Spirit is what I am saying.

I am cutting the cord with our discussion my friend. It’s fruitless to keep going on. May God richly, abundantly bless you this day.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Faith is a gift of God and is also a fruit of the Spirit. When one has faith, they have a fruit of the Spirit is what I am saying.

I agree 100%

I am cutting the cord with our discussion my friend. It’s fruitless to keep going on. May God richly, abundantly bless you this day.

I have to go anyway, And thank you for a non confrontational loving discussion. May God bless you also my brother.

 

[CharliRenee]

I have enjoyed, immensely, reading the discourse shared here. So civilized and respectful, exemplifying dignity given and received.

I have learned from my time here that so many of you are much more educated, in every way, including the word, that I'm treading in waters with some far more wise and knowledgeable than I. I know that there is a time and place for less honey covered truth. I do, though, believe truth delivered with compassion and mercy, is doing justice, and has a greater potential for movement all the way home, simply because the credibility of the messenger and the message are more solid.

Wait...

Oh my, are you saying if it is wrapped pretty than it is more true? 1000% NO. Balance is good. When I see intelligent minds able to discuss matters that oppose one another, thats keeps the spirit of Love and a sound mind at the forefront, I see room for growth... I see humility... I see mercy... I see hope... most importantly, I see Him.

Thank you for taking the time to look at the matter, extensively, but doing so in a manner that displayed your softened hearts secured in Him.

 

[Hevosmies]

Now. If God offered ALL of you salvation. And by taking you to your knees, you called out to God to be saved, But the other person. Who ALSo was taken to his knees, went out fighting and rejected Gods offer. There is no favoritism shown. Because God offered ALL people the same gift. And you could not take credit if you said yes. Because GOD took you to your knees. All you did was admit you had no hope.. Which is what the tax collector did.

But one thing you need to calculate into your argument that you left out is the "T" of TULIP.

Which is total depravity. So its not like people would want to be saved, and God wont save them. Its that they hate God and dont want to be saved.

Therefore the calvinist point would be to flip the fairness argument and say: You dont want fair, you want grace. Fair means everyone goes to hell