IF there was a Rapture at the start off a 7 year tribulation period, then

[delirious]

Acts says the sun turned into darkness and the moon turned to blood at Pentecost. How can I believe that the sixth seal happened at any other time than on the day of Pentecost?

Because the sun being turned to darkness and the moon to blood and the stars falling from heaven is a Jewish Idiom (figure of speech) for divine judgment against a people/nation. For example:

The destruction of Babylon prophesied in Isaiah 13.

Isaiah 13: 10, "For the stars of heaven and their constellations will not give their light; The sun will be darkened in its going forth,
And the moon will not cause its light to shine."

The destruction of Edom prophesied in Isaiah 34.

Isaiah 34: 4, "All the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled up like a scroll; all their host shall fall down.."
This is the same phrasing used in Rev 6: 13, 14, "...the stars of heaven fell to the earth...the sky receded like a scroll" Does that mean the sixth seal applied to Edom too in the sixth century B.C. when it was destroyed by Babylon?

The destruction of Egypt prophesied in Ezekiel 32.

Ezekiel 32: 7,9,11 "...I will cover the heavens and make its stars dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light...when I bring your destruction among the nations...the sword of the king of Babylon will come upon you..."

These are all Jewish idioms for serious divine judgment against people and nations.

Your problem still remains. You have the seventh trumpet, which happens after the 1,000 years of Rev 20, happening at the cross. That means you have the first resurrection and the 1,000 years of Rev 20 way back in the Old Testament somewhere.

 

[RickyZ]

I am sure that we agree on more than that.........Like....

Jesus is Lord
Jesus is God
Jesus is Christ

My beef with you bro has always been over the belief that Salvation can be lost or forfeit....and in my view there are too many verses, promises etc. that must be denied to come to that conclusion.

Peace mate!

Merry Christmas my friend!

 

[delirious]

2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

When did I say the resurrection was past? The resurrection happens at the seventh trumpet when the dead are judged. This is the same thing as the "last day" in John 6. It hasn't happened yet. It doesn't happen until the last day of this universe when Christ comes back.

When I have been trying to show from Scripture is that your math doesn't work. Christ comes back after the 1,000 years and first resurrection. Therefore there cannot be a 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth.

 

[Absolutely]

IF there were a Rapture at the START of a 7-year tribulation period, then we would be able to calculate the exact date of Jesus's return and appearance in glory to earth, wouldn't we, i.e., 7 years after the date of the Rapture.

But the Bible says that no man knows the hour and even Jesus said that on THAT MATTER ONLY the Father knows the hour and day of Jesus's return.

Mark 13:32-33
But of that day and that hour knows no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.Take you heed, watch and pray: FOR YOU KNOW NOT WHEN THE TIME IS.

Therefore there can be NO Rapture at the start of a 7-year tribulation period because we would know how to calculate the day of His return 7 years later.

YehovaYeshua

.....and,by the same token,none after the Gt or mid trib,...

We do see one during the gt in rev 14.

But it is not the main harvest rapture.
That one is pretrib as is laid out vividly by the bible

 

[Locutus]

There is no literal 1000 year period which Christ seated on a throne in Palestine with the Jews ruling over the nations.

What there was was an approximate rule of 40 years of the chosen generation/first fruits to establish the body/church of Christ

John depicts them as the 144K first fruits.

James writes to the these saints and calls then first fruits:

James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Peter calls them the "chosen generation"

1 Pet 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

The "1000" years reign has gone. They were raised up and ruled with Christ as the chosen generation.

Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

 

[Absolutely]

There is a huge problem with this line of thinking

1. No one knows the time the raputure will occure (the context of the words, no man knows the hour)
2. If it is mid trib; Then all we have to do is calculate 3.5 years after the leader of rome confirms a 7 year covenant
3. if it is post trib, then it is 7 years past this date, or 3.5 years past the time of the abomination which causes desolation.

So your argument works against you, Not with you.

The ONLY interpretation which fulfills this scripture is pre-trib. Because know one can know that day this starts or when the rapture (catching up) of Gods people will occure

As for Gods return to earth to destroy rome, We are told all through scripture when that will happen. That is no secret

Especially since the rapture is the harvest of the bride,and the foolish stay.
In fact,there is no point in a rescue of Noah or Lot postjudgement.
" now after the flood had subsided God closed the door of the ark"
That dog won't hunt

 

[Absolutely]

Y'all need to read Josephus.

Did he see the rapture mid trib of the Jews in rev 14?
The flying scorpions?
Hailstones of fire?
A flood from satan that was designed to kill the Jews,but swallowed up by God?
Millions refusing a mark and beheaded?
Or worldwide worship of a man?

 

[KJV1611]

Because the sun being turned to darkness and the moon to blood and the stars falling from heaven is a Jewish Idiom (figure of speech) for divine judgment against a people/nation. For example:

The destruction of Babylon prophesied in Isaiah 13.

Isaiah 13: 10, "For the stars of heaven and their constellations will not give their light; The sun will be darkened in its going forth,
And the moon will not cause its light to shine."

The destruction of Edom prophesied in Isaiah 34.

Isaiah 34: 4, "All the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled up like a scroll; all their host shall fall down.."
This is the same phrasing used in Rev 6: 13, 14, "...the stars of heaven fell to the earth...the sky receded like a scroll" Does that mean the sixth seal applied to Edom too in the sixth century B.C. when it was destroyed by Babylon?

The destruction of Egypt prophesied in Ezekiel 32.

Ezekiel 32: 7,9,11 "...I will cover the heavens and make its stars dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light...when I bring your destruction among the nations...the sword of the king of Babylon will come upon you..."

These are all Jewish idioms for serious divine judgment against people and nations.

Your problem still remains. You have the seventh trumpet, which happens after the 1,000 years of Rev 20, happening at the cross. That means you have the first resurrection and the 1,000 years of Rev 20 way back in the Old Testament somewhere.

Isa 13:6 (KJV) Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.

Isiah 13:10 is speaking of the day of the Lord.
I’m assuming that you believe there are multiple Day of the Lord’s?

 

[KJV1611]

When did I say the resurrection was past? The resurrection happens at the seventh trumpet when the dead are judged. This is the same thing as the "last day" in John 6. It hasn't happened yet. It doesn't happen until the last day of this universe when Christ comes back.

When I have been trying to show from Scripture is that your math doesn't work. Christ comes back after the 1,000 years and first resurrection. Therefore there cannot be a 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth.

You didn’t say it was passed and I didn’t say you did. You believe the resurrection is a one time event just like Hymenaeus and Philetus believed it was a one time event.

People appeared before the white throne way back at the first part of the first resurrection.

 

[Absolutely]

There is no literal 1000 year period which Christ seated on a throne in Palestine with the Jews ruling over the nations.

What there was was an approximate rule of 40 years of the chosen generation/first fruits to establish the body/church of Christ

John depicts them as the 144K first fruits.

James writes to the these saints and calls then first fruits:

James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Peter calls them the "chosen generation"

1 Pet 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

The "1000" years reign has gone. They were raised up and ruled with Christ as the chosen generation.

Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Since the devil is bound for a thousand years,when,in your mind,was he bound for 1k yrs?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

delirious said:The only possible interpretation of Rev 11: 18 is that this is the physically dead which includes everybody.

Disagree in that context. I see the chronology to be that the "5th Trumpet/1st Woe [unto the earth]" is at the precise mid-point of the 7-yrs (mid-trib); whereas the "7th Trumpet" events is closer to 3/4 of the way through (with the 2 Witnesses' 1260-days STRADDLING the two halves, and their conclusion occurring at the "6th Trumpet/2nd Woe" time frame [however, the "42 mos" mentioned in 11:2 refers solely to the 2nd half of the 7 yrs]). I believe that ALL the saints of ALL time periods will be [or will have been resurrected (or still-living) and] present FOR the promised and prophesied earthly MK (i.e. "the kingdom of the heavens [on the earth, upon His "return" there]," aka "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER"), NONE excluded.

To add to this thought ^...

In Revelation, the phrase regarding the "small and great" seems to cover these two:

--the living [at that specific (future) time frame]: in Rev11:18, 13:16, 19:5, 19:18

--the dead [dead/unsaved of all times, at the 1000-yrs-LATER GWTj]: in Rev20:12

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Another flippant remark from the King Jimmy worshipper....

Thats why I have them on ignore. Their petty remarks are nausiating, its like watching children fight with each other (actually I have seen children discuss things and act mre grown up)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Y'all need to read Josephus.

What could he add that we do not already know?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

To add to this thought ^...

In Revelation, the phrase regarding the "small and great" seems to cover these two:

--the living [at that specific (future) time frame]: in Rev11:18, 13:16, 19:5, 19:18

--the dead [dead/unsaved of all times, at the 1000-yrs-LATER GWTj]: in Rev20:12

...oh, and I forgot to add my other comment, which was about the phrase,

"and to destroy those who ARE DESTROYING [present tense participle] the earth" (which, to me, means they [also] are those alive/living at the time being spoken of [that future specific time period])

 

[Absolutely]

Sigh. I don't know how to make it any clearer. Let me try again:

Rev 11: 18, "the time of the dead, that they should be judged..." THE DEAD ARE BEING JUDGED AT THE SEVENTH TRUMPET!
Rev 20: 11-15 is "The Great White Throne Judgment" THE DEAD ARE BEING JUDGED AFTER THE 1,000 YEARS!

THEREFORE THE SEVENTH TRUMPET IS AFTER THE FIRST RESURRECTION AND 1,000 YEARS OF REV 20! AFTER, AFTER, AFTER!!!

If Christ's second coming is after the first resurrection and 1,000 years of Rev 20 then He can't becoming back to start one. Is He starting a 2nd 1,000 years?

I'm not using caps because I'm angry. I'm using caps for emphasis because I am hoping people will understand this.

If you go back and read that,in context,the 24 elders are making declarations immediately after the 2 witnesses are raptured. Rev 11 is not rev 20.
It is proclamations from heaven by the 24 elders
It says the saints are judged.
So you have the saints judged again with the wicked.
That dog won't hunt

 

[delirious]

You didn’t say it was passed and I didn’t say you did. You believe the resurrection is a one time event just like Hymenaeus and Philetus believed it was a one time event. People appeared before the white throne way back at the first part of the first resurrection.

Nobody has appeared at the GWT yet because the dead haven't been judged yet. This is where I don't get you lol. You make some really smart comments and then you says the seventh trumpet happened at the cross plus this comment about the GWT happening at the cross too. They do happen at the same time but not at the cross.

if they happen at the cross this means you have the first resurrection WAY back in the Old Testament because you got to have the 1,000 years completed before the cross. The seventh trumpet is after the 1,000 years and you have the seventh trumpet happening at the cross.

Since you have the first resurrection beginning way back in the Old Testament then Christ and those resurrected saints could not be the first fruits that you claim. Yet Scripture tells us Christ is the first born from among the dead. He is the first fruits. So the first resurrection can't happen before the cross.

The seventh trumpet is after the 1,000 years. Therefore it can't happen at the cross and neither can the GWT judgment.

 

[delirious]

..oh, and I forgot to add my other comment, which was about the phrase, "and to destroy those who ARE DESTROYING [present tense participle] the earth" (which, to me, means they [also] are those alive/living at the time being spoken of [that future specific time period])

Rev 11: 18, "...the time of the dead, that they should be judged..."

We know it can't be spiritually dead but physically alive people because the prophets and saints, who are righteous people, are not spiritually dead. They are receiving rewards which are a positive judgment. The unrighteous are receiving a negative judgment which results in being destroyed.

Physically dead is the only possible interpretation and includes everybody, both saved and unsaved, which is what Rev 11: 18 describes. We know that the seventh trumpet and GWT judgment are the same event and happen after the 1,000 years.

Scripture refutes premillennialism explicitly. But hey, Watermark, believe what you want, it won't make it true.

God bless you anyways in your search for truth.

 

[delirious]

If you go back and read that,in context,the 24 elders are making declarations immediately after the 2 witnesses are raptured. Rev 11 is not rev 20. It is proclamations from heaven by the 24 elders It says the saints are judged. So you have the saints judged again with the wicked. That dog won't hunt

It doesn't say just the saints are judged. Rev 11: 18 says, "...the time of the dead, that they should be judged..."

What does that phrase mean to you? It obviously means everybody who has ever lived and died. That means both saved and unsaved people. The seventh trumpet and the GWT judgment happen at the same time. Therefore we know the seventh trumpet is after the 1,000 years of Rev 20.

These are the only 2 places people are being judged. Seventh trumpet and GWT. People don't get judged twice. The seventh trumpet happens and people get judged at the GWT. The seventh trumpet is after the 1,000 years.

Therefore, all forms of premillennialism are proven false by just reading Scripture.

 

[KJV1611]

Nobody has appeared at the GWT yet because the dead haven't been judged yet. This is where I don't get you lol. You make some really smart comments and then you says the seventh trumpet happened at the cross plus this comment about the GWT happening at the cross too. They do happen at the same time but not at the cross.

Let's work this out together in bite sized piece, starting with this part. Let's look at scripture and come to an agreement or disagreement on have the dead been judged yet.

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Jer 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

Daniel 12:1 - There never was a time of trouble like this time of trouble in verse 12.
Jeremiah 30:7 - There never has been nor ever will be another time of trouble like this time in verse 7.
Are those two verses talking about the same event? Just yes or no.

 

[delirious]

Daniel 12:1 - There never was a time of trouble like this time of trouble in verse 12.
Jeremiah 30:7 - There never has been nor ever will be another time of trouble like this time in verse 7.
Are those two verses talking about the same event? Just yes or no.

I don't know. What point are you trying to make? I am genuinely curious.