Not By Works

Hevosmies · Dec 20, 2018

Thats the problem. There are tons of verses supporting calvinism, sure, but there is a ton supporting arminianism (or free will whatever you wanna call it) too. One of these would be the story of Saul in the bible. Another one would be the pharisees and lawyers "rejecting" God's counsel for them by not being baptized by John. etc.

So harmonizing would seem IDEAL here. I just havent found a good way to do it. Probably neveer will, the church has been working on it for quite a while

dcontroversal · Dec 20, 2018

NoNameMcgee said:

Bro get some antibiotics...coughing blood is not good migo

preacher4truth said:

You have not proven anything....nor have you addressed any and off of the contridictions with calvinism...

Jive God desiring all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth and God chose some for hell

A complete contradiction if there ever was one.....

and no problem...sink to the level of those not honest and or having an ounce of integrity...I assumed you were better than that!

dcontroversal · Dec 20, 2018

Hevosmies said:

There is a balance to be struck...they both have went to seed on their view....
and regardless of the few lip flappers pushing the one view the following is a total contradiction....

God would have all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth

God chose some for hell

NoNameMcgee · Dec 20, 2018

dcontroversal said:

thanks brother... i got hit with a few things at once and have a condition with my sinuses that leads to drying and cracking in my throat

the first time it happened many years ago i was throwing up mouthfulls of blood and i was certain i was dying.... only to find out my nose had been broken in a few places.... and its not some internal bleeding

(maybe TMI but i want you to know its not so serious)

dcontroversal · Dec 20, 2018

Hevosmies said:

Exactly and why I say there is a balance to be struck with both views.......!!

And HONESTY with the truth that there is a balance keeps both in error!

Hevosmies · Dec 20, 2018

dcontroversal said:

I agree its a contradiction but what do you suggest to reconcile the views?

dcontroversal · Dec 20, 2018

Hevosmies said:

What is funny is they mouth that I use one verse to push my point, oblivious to the fact that I have spent 33 years in the truth and weigh everything.....One in particular Psalm I taught through we used 196 verses to just examine the 1st verse.....I KNOW THE ABOVE does not necessarily = correct but lay it out for those lip flapping about how I come to conclusions....

The simplest answer....

Before God cast the word down he preordained the truth that ALL who come to him IN FAITH THROUGH the SON will be received as full grown sons and daughters.....

It is evident from scripture that NO MAN can come to salvation unless drawn, convicted, enlightened, given faith, and saved by said faith....

It is also equally evident that NOT ALL CALLED BY ABOVE BOLDED WILL BE RECEIVED because they did not believe even though they were obviously convicted of the truth....

The fact that God would have ALL MEN BE SAVED AND COME TO THE KNOWLEDGE of the truth cannot be jived with GOD CHOSING SOME FOR HELL.

I have fully stated that GOD knows our choice before he cast down the world and can chose to draw or not draw a man based upon his divine will....

To me there are many verses that seem rather usless if God has alreadys decided who will be and who will not be saved....

Nothing I said above contradicts GOD being GOD AND THE BIBLE from beginning to end has always been about choice!

eternally-gratefull · Dec 20, 2018

Hevosmies said:

Thats the problem. There are tons of verses supporting calvinism, sure, but there is a ton supporting arminianism (or free will whatever you wanna call it) too. One of these would be the story of Saul in the bible. Another one would be the pharisees and lawyers "rejecting" God's counsel for them by not being baptized by John. etc.

So harmonizing would seem IDEAL here. I just havent found a good way to do it. Probably neveer will, the church has been working on it for quite a while

One teaches salvation by works, One does not

Again, they can not be resolved.

Argueless · Dec 20, 2018

The truth is that the deceiver has been deceiving from the beginning until now.

These deceivers will REJECT and NULLIFY the Word and believe the deceiving spirits.(Isaiah 5:20-24, Mark 7:6-13)

...while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 2 Timothy 3:13

...THE SPIRIT CLEARLY SAYS that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through HYPOCRITICAL LIARS, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 1 Timothy 4:1-2

How would we know who were the ones that were deceived?

We know that Eve was deceived when she believed the deceiver and disobeyed God's command.

Who are the deceivers and who were deceived?

..But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18 They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” 19 These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.

...At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
Matthew 24:10‭-‬14‭, ‬24

...For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.
2 Corinthians 11:13‭-‬15

...And those that were deceived believed in the deceivers mentioned above and disobeyed God's commands because they were made to believe that they would not surely die, IOW, "always saved". But scriptures warn us not to be deceived;

Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them.
Ephesians 5:6‭-‬7

...Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?” The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’ ” “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. “For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”...
Genesis 3:1‭-‬19

Just think what could have happened if Eve did not believe the serpents deception but OBEYED God instead. ...NO NEED TO DISCUSS SALVATION FOR SURE because no one needs to be saved.

The truth is that Adam and Eve were created according to the image of God's righteousness and holiness and they BELIEVE and OBEY God until they got DECEIVED and disobeyed God.

Did God warn us about the deception? If He did, then why resist them?

So who would say now that OBEDIENCE TO GOD HAS NO BEARING IN SALVATION?

dcontroversal · Dec 20, 2018

eternally-gratefull said:

I was addressing the point that one believes it is all man and the other aspect of man making no choice.....

Obviously a works based salvation is false so is God saying Man A will be saved and man B has no option and will burn....

NoNameMcgee · Dec 20, 2018

Argueless said:

Do you believe you are saved?

If so, where does your assurance come from?

(if this looks like i am not replying to someone... you have that someone blocked)

TruthTalk · Dec 20, 2018

eternally-gratefull said:

Hi E-g, I welcome your thoughts on this subject so please if you can elevate my thinking so that I can have a correct view of predestination.

Are you saying for example that; if I am a Hmong tribesman of Norther Thailand and I have, "not been regenerated", nor given the opportunity to be saved, then by default God has predestined me to go to hell. If your answer is "yes" then I believe you are misplacing who is responsible for this mans demise and here is why, because we are all "without excuse."

E-g, are we not all guilty and punishable to hell fire and has not the God of the universe given every single human being enough light within to know Him. And if that is true then are not every human being responsible, why play the blame game, if you are on the path to hell's fire don't blame shift you are there without prejudice accept your responsibility.

Please let me now if you think I'm off track or misinformed.

Romans3:10-12
10) As it is written:
“There is no one righteous,
not even one.
11) There is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12) All have turned away;
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.

Romans3:3-8
3) What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God’s faithfulness? 4) Certainly not! Let God be true and every man a liar. As it is written:
“So that You may be justified in Your words,
and prevail in Your judgments.”
5) But if our unrighteousness highlights the righteousness of God, what shall we say? That God is unjust to inflict His wrath on us? I am speaking in human terms. 6) Certainly not! In that case, how could God judge the world? 7) However, if my falsehood accentuates God’s truthfulness, to the increase of His glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner? 8) Why not say, as some slanderously claim that we say, “Let us do evil that good may result?” Their condemnation is deserved!

Romans1:20-23
20) For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse. 21) For although they knew God, they neither glorified Him as God nor gave thanks to Him, but they became futile in their thinking and darkened in their foolish hearts. 22) Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools, 23) and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images of mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

eternally-gratefull · Dec 20, 2018

TruthTalk said:

Hi E-g, I welcome your thoughts on this subject so please if you can elevate my thinking so that I can have a correct view of predestination.

Are you saying for example that; if I am a Hmong tribesman of Norther Thailand and I have, "not been regenerated", nor given the opportunity to be saved, then by default God has predestined me to go to hell. If your answer is "yes" then I believe you are misplacing who is responsible for this mans demise and here is why, because we are all "without excuse."

E-g, are we not all guilty and punishable to hell fire and has not the God of the universe given every single human being enough light within to know Him. And if that is true then are not every human being responsible, why play the blame game, if you are on the path to hell's fire don't blame shift you are there without prejudice accept your responsibility.

Please let me now if you think I'm off track or misinformed.

Romans3:10-12
10) As it is written:
“There is no one righteous,
not even one.
11) There is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12) All have turned away;
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.

Romans3:3-8
3) What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God’s faithfulness? 4) Certainly not! Let God be true and every man a liar. As it is written:
“So that You may be justified in Your words,
and prevail in Your judgments.”
5) But if our unrighteousness highlights the righteousness of God, what shall we say? That God is unjust to inflict His wrath on us? I am speaking in human terms. 6) Certainly not! In that case, how could God judge the world? 7) However, if my falsehood accentuates God’s truthfulness, to the increase of His glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner? 8) Why not say, as some slanderously claim that we say, “Let us do evil that good may result?” Their condemnation is deserved!

Romans1:20-23
20) For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse. 21) For although they knew God, they neither glorified Him as God nor gave thanks to Him, but they became futile in their thinking and darkened in their foolish hearts. 22) Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools, 23) and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images of mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

I have not insinuated I believe in what you have said here my friend. I was tryign to showq you calvanism

TruthTalk · Dec 20, 2018

eternally-gratefull said:

Okay not meaning you did insinuate what I was asking you to help me with is the predestination question but apparently that did not come out the way it was intended, carry on and never mind my confusion, thanks.

eternally-gratefull · Dec 20, 2018

TruthTalk said:

Lol..

There are two views of predestination.. The calvinist view and the other iew.

VCO · Dec 20, 2018

dcontroversal said:

I know you know this, and therefore I know you are just being nice. Because in the Parable of the GATES, only a FEW Find the Road to SALVATION; but in Mat. 7 it says MANY are on their way, to HELL. I PERSONALLY THINK THE PARABLE OF THE GATES IS ONLY REFERRING TO THOSE WHO CALL THEMSELVES CHRISTIANS:

Matthew 7:13-23 (HCSB)
13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the road is broad that leads to destruction [Mat. 10:28], and there are many who go through it.
14 How narrow is the gate and difficult the road that leads to life [John 10:28], and few find it.
15 “Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravaging wolves.
16 You’ll recognize them by their fruit. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes or figs from thistles?
17 In the same way, every good tree produces good fruit, but a bad tree produces bad fruit.
18 A good tree can’t produce bad fruit; neither can a bad tree produce good fruit.
19 Every tree that doesn’t produce good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 So you’ll recognize them by their fruit.
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but ⌊only⌋ the one who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 On that day many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?’
23 Then I will announce to them, ‘I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’

Philippians 3:9-10 (NJB)
9 and be given a place in him, with the uprightness I have gained not from the Law, but through faith in Christ, an uprightness from God, based on faith,
10 that I may come to know Him and the power of his resurrection, and partake of his sufferings by being moulded to the pattern of his death,

That is BORN AGAIN, and in Verses 13 and 22, they are the ONES who call themselves Christians, but NEVER HAVE BEEN BORN AGAIN.

dcontroversal · Dec 20, 2018

VCO said:

I know you know this, and therefore I know you are just being nice. Because in the Parable of the GATES, only a FEW Find the Road to SALVATION; but in Mat. 7 it says MANY are on their way, to HELL. I PERSONALLY THINK THE PARABLE OF THE GATES IS ONLY REFERRING TO THOSE WHO CALL THEMSELVES CHRISTIANS:

Matthew 7:13-23 (HCSB)
13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the road is broad that leads to destruction [Mat. 10:28], and there are many who go through it.
14 How narrow is the gate and difficult the road that leads to life [John 10:28], and few find it.
15 “Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravaging wolves.
16 You’ll recognize them by their fruit. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes or figs from thistles?
17 In the same way, every good tree produces good fruit, but a bad tree produces bad fruit.
18 A good tree can’t produce bad fruit; neither can a bad tree produce good fruit.
19 Every tree that doesn’t produce good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 So you’ll recognize them by their fruit.
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but ⌊only⌋ the one who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 On that day many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?’
23 Then I will announce to them, ‘I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’

Philippians 3:9-10 (NJB)
9 and be given a place in him, with the uprightness I have gained not from the Law, but through faith in Christ, an uprightness from God, based on faith,
10 that I may come to know Him and the power of his resurrection, and partake of his sufferings by being moulded to the pattern of his death,

That is BORN AGAIN, and in Verses 13 and 22, they are the ONES who call themselves Christians, but NEVER HAVE BEEN BORN AGAIN.

And the truth......within the ranks of the world and so called Christianity the minority teaches saved eternally by grace through faith with no religious hoop jumping or works attached......

Broad is the road and MOST go that road and you Know I fully embrace that there is only one correct message of salvation and that most have corrupted that message dia embellishing faith in some form or fashion.!

preacher4truth · Dec 20, 2018

Hevosmies said:

Yep.

Nope.

What about Saul? His rebellion and sinful ways? Perhaps he was enslaved to his sinful nature. For the record I don't believe that because the Spirit of God moved him to use him in any situation equates to eternal salvation. Others were used in God's secondary causes that were enemies of God.

Right, because that is what lost men do, refuse to come to God unless God grants it; John 6:44 &c. In fact they cannot come to him. Therefore they were not free in their wills, but bound. None are free unless Christ sets them free; John 8:36.

Unless God had done a work in the hearts of the above, they'd continue on in their sinful ways. Therefore the elephant in the room in your above scenario is "choice," yet, none in the flesh can please God, Romans 8:8 and none of those could have chosen themselves out of their scenario without God. Man does not choose himself into the kingdom.

Lastly, none of those have anything to do with eternal salvation.

There is no way to harmonize it as men are not saved via decisionalism they are saved by Grace and the fact that God elected them to eternal salvation.

Men don't elect themselves to this, which is obvious, because they are incapable of coming to God and Scripture denies men are saved by their determining will. I'd say that makes man not free in their will, but enslaved to their will, unless God...

TruthTalk · Dec 20, 2018

eternally-gratefull said:

Exactly and thank you

dcontroversal · Dec 20, 2018

preacher4truth said:

So....boiled down a man does not need to do anything, no confession of faith, no acknowledging Christ in belief, no need for the word of God being witnessed or proclaimed....just live life because at the end if you are chosen your saved and if not you are bumming right.....so....the following verses need to be removed...

If you believe AND CONFESS <-no need to confess you are elected or not.

Sir what must I do to be saved....NOTHING BECAUSE YOU ARE ALREADY ELECTED...no need to CONFESS Jesus as Lord

Heck....the thief on the cross should have saved his breath...no need to confess Jesus as Lord....he was already elected....

The absurdity of it all........hahahahaha

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