Those who obey God and walk with Him do so BECAUSE they are saved and not in order to become saved. If you believe that we maintain our salvation based on the merits of our obedience, then please explain exactly how much obedience it take? Sinless, perfect obedience 100% of the time? 90% of the time? 50% of the time?
MMD, Youi know this is a silly question.
Let me ask YOU something:
How much faith does it take to be saved?
See. It works the same way.
The faith of a mustard seed.
The obedience we can muster.
Where do you draw the line in the sand and say that you were "obedient enough" so now the Lord will be able to save you? Is that salvation through faith in Christ or salvation by works?
Works-salvationists (including Roman Catholics and Mormons) often quote these verses below in order to teach salvation by works.
These questions are irrelevant since our works do not save us.
I never said this.
Jesus said, “If anyone desires to come after Me/be My disciple, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me. Only genuine believers are capable of doing this. I've heard those who teach sinless perfection say that anything short of living a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolute perfect life 100% of the time (exactly as Jesus lived) fall short of picking up their cross daily and following Jesus and won't be saved. It's about the DIRECTION of our walk and NOT the perfection of our walk.
of course. There is none righteous, no not one.
We won't be perfect till we get to heaven.
We are saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works. (Ephesians 2:8-10)
In regards to the rich young man in Matthew 19/Luke 18, the rich young man confidently and (self righteously) declared that he has kept the commandments from his youth up and qualified for heaven under those terms. Yet Jesus knew the man's wealth had become his idolatrous god, which kept him from believing in and following Jesus. His face fell and he went away sad because he could not part from his great wealth, not even in exchange for eternal life.
Agreed. But we do have to do the good works.....right?
If we say Jesus is our Lord,,,,but then do not obey Him and act as a good disciple should...
is He really our Lord or are we just making believe?
The Rich Young Man --- yes, we all have something we don't like to leave. If we trust in Jesus God will even forgive us that. But this parable does show, once again, that Jesus did not speak of salvation the way we understand it today; He spoke of acts and deeds and believing in the true sense of the Greek way of believing....you like Greek, you know what believe means.... (I'm not repeating it AGAIN!)
After a casual reading of the parable of the sheep and goats in Matthew 25:31-46, one might conclude that these passages of scripture suggest that salvation is the result of good works, yet all scripture proves itself right and non-contradictory when compared with the totality of scripture. This passage has to be taken alongside the whole of scripture. Jesus was not advocating salvation by works. That would be contrary to Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5 etc... One's works are an effect of (and therefore indication of) one's salvation status, rather than being a cause of one's salvation. It's performance based salvation, but salvation based performance.
Jesus said one must be born from above. He's speaking to those who are born from above and how they are to behave...just like in the Beatitudes. The acts ALONE, or the behavior ALONE willl not save anyone.
On the other hand, faith alone, without works is a dead faith. Because it is alone...
James 2:17
We need both faith and works AFTER SALVATION.
The good deeds mentioned in Matthew 25:35-36 are merely the fruit that will be manifest in the lives of the redeemed. Those who are placed at Christ's right hand are not there based on the merits of their good deeds, but because Christ imputed His righteousness to them (Romans 4:2-6; Philippians 3:9). When works are mentioned in connection with salvation, the works are always the result of, not the condition of, receiving salvation. The stress is on works as a manifestation of one's faith (or lack thereof), not simply on the faith from which these works follow. So it is understandable that in this context, Matthew would stress the works that are a manifestation of one's "faith by which one receives eternal life."
Notice how practicing righteousness and love for other Christians is an indication of one's salvation status: 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. He who practices righteousness and loves his brother does so BECAUSE he is "born of God" not to become born of God. 1 John 3:14 - We know that we have (past tense) passed from death to life, because we love our brothers (present tense). Loving our brothers is the result of, not the condition of passing from death to life.
I agree but with a but.....
Notice that in, for example (and this holds true for all verses of this type) 1 John 3:10-15 John is saying that if we are born of God (verse 9) we will love and not hate and not act like Cain, because, yes, AFTER salvation God does require that we follow in His ways. Call it discipleship,,,but we must adhere to the teachings Jesus left us with, some of which are in Mathew 25 as you stated. Jesus didn't leave us with these teaching as a suggestion, it's required of us.
It's not right to come on these threads and make others believe we are not required to do anything but "believe" --- because if we even know what the word believe means, then we'll know that we are to follow in Jesus' footsteps and we should communicate how important this is,,,not water it down.
James 1:22-23
Jesus said, “If you love Me, keep My commandments." Those who "keep" (Greek word "
tereo" - guard, observe, watch over) His commandments abide in His love. Those who teach sinless perfection would say that anything short of sinless, perfect obedience 100% of the time to ALL of His commandments would mean that you do not keep His commandments and will not be saved. Yet those who believe they live a sinless, without fault or defect, absolute perfect life 100% of the time (exactly as Jesus lived) are suffering from a terminal case of self righteousness. (1 John 1:8-10)
In 1 John 2:3, we read - Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep (guard, observe, watch over) His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
I don't know anyone who thinks they are perfect. Only Jesus was perfect.
If they think they're perfect, then I agree with you.
There is a difference between DOING the will of God IN ORDER TO BECOME SAVED - John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
AND doing the will of God AFTER WE HAVE BEEN SAVED THROUGH FAITH - 1 Thessalonians 5:14 - Now we exhort you, brethren, warn those who are unruly, comfort the fainthearted, uphold the weak, be patient with all. 15 See that no one renders evil for evil to anyone, but always pursue what is good both for yourselves and for all. 16 Rejoice always, 17 pray without ceasing, 18 in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.
I agree.
I've always said I don't know exactly what we're arguing about....
