Need clarity regarding this Predestination thing and something related to an election?

[preacher4truth]

ROFL
Try telling that to an atheist. They will laugh at you for your magic fairy in the sky!! They ridicule the Bible. Therefore I use science to prove to them big bang evolution is debunked by science and evidence in the Bible proves their assertions are false. These codes prove this assertion of mine about the Bible absolutely being created by God.

ROFL??? Sir, you're the one with the absurd unproveable claims. That and I couldn't care less about what an atheist thinks, lol!!!! Bible codes is bovine scatology. The codes don't prove anything other than you don't believe the testimony of Scripture. That's all, good evening to you, sir.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

You are delving into the quinquarticular controversy between Calvinism and Arminianism. 2 totally opposing views with scripture backing their point of view. When the elders created the creeds they stated the creeds define what a person must believe to be a Christian. Then all Biblical issues outside of the creeds was to agree to disagree. Here is the contraversy. Notice at the bottom is the Biblical defense of each.

Quinquarticular Controversy
The diametrically opposed Calvinist and Arminian 5 points

Reformed/Calvinism
TULIP
1. Total depravity
2. Unconditional election
3. Limited atonement
4. Irresistible grace
5. Perserverance of the Saints

Arminianism
1. Free will or Human ability
2. Conditional election
3. Universal Redemption or General Atonement
4. The Holy Spirit can be Effectually Resisted
5. Falling from Grace

For a deeper discussion of the differences go to these web sites,

https://www.gotquestions.org/Calvinism-vs-Arminianism.html

Arminianism vs Calvinism Controversial Passages
https://www.xenos.org/essays/calvinism-arminianism-controversial-passages

There are denominations adhering to Calvinism, Arminianism, and parts of each creating a spectrum of different views of these issues.

Calvinism Arminianism debate
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Calvinist–Arminian_debate

Biblical Defense of Calvinism
https://www.fivesolas.com/tulipscriptures.htm

Biblical Defense of Arminianism
http://www.evidenceunseen.com/theology/calvinism-versus-arminianism/biblical-defense-of-arminianism/

There is no agreeing to disagree when it comes to the doctrine that Jesus taught. He said, "if any man preach any other doctrine, let him be accursed.

 

[Endoscopy]

Well, bless your heart sir. The Bible doesn't need an outside source and imho it all proves, well, what P. T. Barnum allegedly said.

Looks like other books can magically do the same things: https://www.nelsonprice.com/bible-code-exposed/

How many codes were found in any other text? Hundreds with names and birth and death dates of 20th century men or something equivalent in the amount found in the Torah. Apples and oranges evidence. Where is the volume and accuracy in these books. Straw man argument!!

Go back to the drawing board and come up with some books with the volume and accuracy of the codes in the Torah!!

 

[Endoscopy]

ROFL??? Sir, you're the one with the absurd unproveable claims. That and I couldn't care less about what an atheist thinks, lol!!!! Bible codes is bovine scatology. The codes don't prove anything other than you don't believe the testimony of Scripture. That's all, good evening to you, sir.

My claims are proven in the books I referenced. It is something that demonstrably proves the Bible is the word of God.

So you have no concern for the unsaved?? What about the Great Commission?? And you call yourself a Christian!!! Get on your knees and pray!!

 

[preacher4truth]

Sad day when we have people ridiculing others for sticking to Scripture and denying the bovine scatology like "Bible Codes" to validate Scripture.

Not using another source other than Scripture as an apologetic and you should be ashamed, are supposedly left out on a limb, and ridiculed? By a professing believer nonetheless??? Unreal.

That's really foolish of you "Endoscopy" and quite sad honestly.

 

[Endoscopy]

What do you have that will possibly get through to them?? I use science and these codes prove the Bible MUST BE FROM GOD. So what will you use to convert an atheist?? They reject the Bible out of hand but this might get them to think.

 

[GraceAndTruth]

What would the non-elect do with the gospel?
They would crush it underfoot and spit on it which is what they do today.

The ones who think they are the master of their ship, the captain of their fate.
Yeah, their SINKING ship.

That think God is their puppet who must let them into HIS HEAVEN because they "accepted Christ" (which is not in the bible) They walk an aisle or say a pre-digested prayer about being saved like it is a mantra for fire insurance. (also not in the bible) Their disobedience to the word is LEGION.

Their little god does their bidding, even their prayers reflect this.......God do this, God do that I want this I want that.

The only root the true gospel would put down is in their dirt of apostasy.

 

[preacher4truth]

What do you have that will possibly get through to them?? I use science and these codes prove the Bible MUST BE FROM GOD. So what will you use to convert an atheist?? They reject the Bible out of hand but this might get them to think.

You use those things because you have no faith in God's Word and you're intimidated by men. That and your apologetics are inherently weak by necessity.

Here's my stance on this issue:

27And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father’s house— 28for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ 29But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’”

 

[Endoscopy]

Sad day when we have people ridiculing others for sticking to Scripture and denying the bovine scatology like "Bible Codes" to validate Scripture.

Not using another source other than Scripture as an apologetic and you should be ashamed, are supposedly left out on a limb, and ridiculed? By a professing believer nonetheless??? Unreal.

That's really foolish of you "Endoscopy" and quite sad honestly.

You obviously have never dealt with atheists. The would laugh at the Bible and ridicule you for believing in the fairy in the sky. What do you have to counter that?? Proof is needed to possibly make a dent in their rejection of God and the Bible!! What physical proof do you have??

 

[Endoscopy]

There is no agreeing to disagree when it comes to the doctrine that Jesus taught. He said, "if any man preach any other doctrine, let him be accursed.

You obviously didn't understand what I stated!!
The early elders created the creeds between 212 and 500 defining the belief that a Christian MUST BELIEVE. They then outside of them stated that the lesser issues are to agree to disagree. Why do you think we have so many different gospel preaching denominations?? Each disagrees about some doctrinal point. History proves you wrong!!

 

[preacher4truth]

There is no agreeing to disagree when it comes to the doctrine that Jesus taught. He said, "if any man preach any other doctrine, let him be accursed.

Um, not quite, you just make up verses.

Galatians 1:8-10 says if anyone preach any other GOSPEL (which you're guilty of) let him be accursed.

ForestGreenCook, you twist, manipulate, add to Scripture AND preach a false gospel. Looks like the passage you misquoted is for you. Some twisted mess of 1 Timothy 6:3 and Galatians 1:8-10. Nevertheless you'll be held accountable for your false deceptive message.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

You obviously didn't understand what I stated!!
The early elders created the creeds between 212 and 500 defining the belief that a Christian MUST BELIEVE. They then outside of them stated that the lesser issues are to agree to disagree. Why do you think we have so many different gospel preaching denominations?? Each disagrees about some doctrinal point. History proves you wrong!!

That is why I am on this forum. To defend the doctrine of Jesus by disagreeing with the false doctrines. O' maybe I see your point, I am agreeing to disagree with them.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Scripture is sufficient for all things concerning faith and practice, revelation of God. Just not which car to drive unless "in one accord" in Acts 2:1 is referring to a Honda.

@Hevosmies this is what I was trying to say, but @preacher4truth said it better.

 

[Endoscopy]

That is why I am on this forum. To defend the doctrine of Jesus by disagreeing with the false doctrines. O' maybe I see your point, I am agreeing to disagree with them.

When you say the doctrine of Jesus just what are you referring to. What Jesus said and did or going beyond that to other teachings?

That is why the early elders created the creeds. They define what a Christian must believe. It is also why they stated anything outside of the creeds was to agree to disagree. Here is the Apostles Creed and I adhere to it.

THE APOSTLES CREED
() Not included in earliest manuscripts. The origin and date of the creed is unknown.

I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of Heaven and Earth; And in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried. (He descended into Hell.) The third day he rose again from the dead. He ascended into Heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from there He shall come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy universal church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting.

Amen.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

When you say the doctrine of Jesus just what are you referring to. What Jesus said and did or going beyond that to other teachings?

That is why the early elders created the creeds. They define what a Christian must believe. It is also why they stated anything outside of the creeds was to agree to disagree. Here is the Apostles Creed and I adhere to it.

THE APOSTLES CREED
() Not included in earliest manuscripts. The origin and date of the creed is unknown.

I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of Heaven and Earth; And in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried. (He descended into Hell.) The third day he rose again from the dead. He ascended into Heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from there He shall come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy universal church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting.

Amen.

I believe the scriptures to teach that God judges the living (his elect regenerated children) while they are here in this world by his chastening and they will not be judged at the last day. God does not chasten or judge the wicked (the non elect) while they live here on earth, but will judge them at the last day.

 

[Endoscopy]

I believe the scriptures to teach that God judges the living (his elect regenerated children) while they are here in this world by his chastening and they will not be judged at the last day. God does not chasten or judge the wicked (the non elect) while they live here on earth, but will judge them at the last day.

We are given grace through faith in Jesus. It is a free gift from God. Too many people think they have to earn it. They don't understand it is free!

 

[50C1AL0N3]

To the Op.

Elect mens chosen, or predetermined. Or special

God chose a nation out of all nations to have a special purpose on earth. They are called his elect (national) and this form has no bearingn n anyone, including that nations salvation.

Then there are the elect. Chosen by God in his foreknowledge, to be saved by the will of God. What is th will of God? In John 6, It says the will of God is al who SEE and BELIEVE will be given eternal life. Never die, and be assured of ressurection to life. How do we see. The bible says through the word.

The bible does say he is the savior of all. But it also mentions that it is ESPECIALLY those who are being save. Just because hee came to save all does not mean all will be saved, He will nt force his salvation on anyone. And do not let anyone tell you otherwise.

Well, either I am insane and do not have the Spirit of Truth, or God imputed his salvation, faith, divine love, understanding of the truth, and every burning desire to please him. I never sought it out. Never believed enough to care to ask for it. 20 years later istill scratch my head and am beside myself at the changes in desires and many other things i have been compelled to fulfil. Imputed but not imposed because it is the best thing that will ever happen to me in the flesh. He draws with such compelling grace that if I didn't do the things he compelled me to do it sucked to the point of almost unbearable. ...just speaking fr om personal experiance. What about Paul? He didn't have much choice?

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Again my friend, the Bible cannot tell you: Where to live, where does God want you to live, does He want you to marry, does He want you in the ministry, etc etc.

True or Not? Its true.

But you wont admit it. WATCH IT.
I wont drop it till you answer this.

http://calvinistcorner.com/gifts.htm <- check it out

I will try to answer this as precisely as I can my friend. Notice who and at what time 1 and 2 Corinthians were written. If you read through Acts of the Apostles, you will notice that Paul's writings cover that time when the Acts of the Apostles was written. Look at all that transpired during this 'Apostolic Age'...

Spirit comes upon them and they speak with new tongues(Acts 2).
Ananias and Sapphira die after lying to the Holy Spirit(Acts 5).
Peter raises Dorcas from the dead(Acts 9).
Paul raises Eutychus from the dead(Acts 20).
Peter heals a crippled man(Acts 3).
Paul is bit by a snake and receives no harm whatsoever(Acts 28).
Cornelius receives a vision from an angel(Acts 10).
Peter is rescued from prison by an angel(Acts
Apostles released from prison by an angel(Acts 5).
Stephen sees Jesus right before he dies(Acts 7).
Paul is knocked to the ground and has a conversation with Jesus(Acts 9).
Peter walks through a street and his shadow heals them it comes across(Acts 5).
And there are many more that I have not even mentioned. It was during this time Paul wrote 1 and 2 Corinthians. These sign gifts were part of the Apostolic Age, and it helped to confirm the church in her beginning.

John, James, and Peter also wrote during this time. Look at something James wrote...

Effective Prayer

13 Is anyone among you suffering? He should pray. Is anyone cheerful? He should sing praises. 14 Is anyone among you sick? He should call for the elders of the church, and they should pray over him after anointing him with olive oil in the name of the Lord. 15 The prayer of faith will save the sick person, and the Lord will restore him to health; if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. 16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, so that you may be healed. The urgent request of a righteous person is very powerful in its effect.(James 5)

Now, my whole life, I have witnessed churches practicing the laying on of hands, even before I was saved. I have witnessed churches laying hands on sick people, some use oil some do not. I have seen them have prayer cloths(a gross misapplication of Paul's doing in Acts 19) given. In James, he said these who have hands laid upon them WILL save this sick person and the Lord WILL restore their health. I have yet to see any healed. Also, it says any sins they committed, they will be forgiven them. James gives a guarantee that those who are sick will be healed and brought back to health.

Seeing how this does not work today makes me believe this, as well as the other sign gifts, ceased when the last Apostle died.

 

[Milee777]

I will try to answer this as precisely as I can my friend. Notice who and at what time 1 and 2 Corinthians were written. If you read through Acts of the Apostles, you will notice that Paul's writings cover that time when the Acts of the Apostles was written. Look at all that transpired during this 'Apostolic Age'...

Spirit comes upon them and they speak with new tongues(Acts 2).
Ananias and Sapphira die after lying to the Holy Spirit(Acts 5).
Peter raises Dorcas from the dead(Acts 9).
Paul raises Eutychus from the dead(Acts 20).
Peter heals a crippled man(Acts 3).
Paul is bit by a snake and receives no harm whatsoever(Acts 28).
Cornelius receives a vision from an angel(Acts 10).
Peter is rescued from prison by an angel(Acts
Apostles released from prison by an angel(Acts 5).
Stephen sees Jesus right before he dies(Acts 7).
Paul is knocked to the ground and has a conversation with Jesus(Acts 9).
Peter walks through a street and his shadow heals them it comes across(Acts 5).
And there are many more that I have not even mentioned. It was during this time Paul wrote 1 and 2 Corinthians. These sign gifts were part of the Apostolic Age, and it helped to confirm the church in her beginning.

John, James, and Peter also wrote during this time. Look at something James wrote...

Effective Prayer

13 Is anyone among you suffering? He should pray. Is anyone cheerful? He should sing praises. 14 Is anyone among you sick? He should call for the elders of the church, and they should pray over him after anointing him with olive oil in the name of the Lord. 15 The prayer of faith will save the sick person, and the Lord will restore him to health; if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. 16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, so that you may be healed. The urgent request of a righteous person is very powerful in its effect.(James 5)

Now, my whole life, I have witnessed churches practicing the laying on of hands, even before I was saved. I have witnessed churches laying hands on sick people, some use oil some do not. I have seen them have prayer cloths(a gross misapplication of Paul's doing in Acts 19) given. In James, he said these who have hands laid upon them WILL save this sick person and the Lord WILL restore their health. I have yet to see any healed. Also, it says any sins they committed, they will be forgiven them. James gives a guarantee that those who are sick will be healed and brought back to health.

Seeing how this does not work today makes me believe this, as well as the other sign gifts, ceased when the last Apostle died.

WHAT?

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

WHAT?

What do you need me to clarify for you my friend?