Are we arians?
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For example, Jesus was baptized, depended on the Holy Spirit, submitted to His parents, depended on the Torah to fight the devil, even though all things were made by Him. Why? Because as the Captain of our salvation He had to walk in our shoes and overcome using the same means we do. He learned obedience by the things He suffered.
These facts somewhat answer some of you arguments. I will give more in a couple days. Happy New Yeat
These facts somewhat answer some of you arguments. I will give more in a couple days. Happy New Yeat
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If YHWH created all things by Himself and He alone created all things, as Isaiah said, how is it that the scriptures say all things were made by Jesus, by Him (Jesus) all things were made, and He laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the works of His (Jesus) hands. Don't forget, the scriptures say YHWH ALONE and BY Himself did these things
Why does Jesus call Himself the ALPHA and OMEGA, the FIRST AND the LAST, when these are titles YHWH gives Himself in the OT?
Jesus said that everything the Father does, He does likewise.
Jesus possesses all the Divine attributes
Jesus is called God, yet their is only one true God, and Jesus is not false, but yet He is called God.
Jesus is distinct from the Father, but is God along with Father and Holy Spirit
In the beginning (imperfect tense, timeless existence, in the beginning, He already was)
Was the Logos
And the Word was with God, distinct from Father and Holy Spirit
And the Word was God, the Logos is true Deity
Why does Jesus call Himself the ALPHA and OMEGA, the FIRST AND the LAST, when these are titles YHWH gives Himself in the OT?
Jesus said that everything the Father does, He does likewise.
Jesus possesses all the Divine attributes
Jesus is called God, yet their is only one true God, and Jesus is not false, but yet He is called God.
Jesus is distinct from the Father, but is God along with Father and Holy Spirit
In the beginning (imperfect tense, timeless existence, in the beginning, He already was)
Was the Logos
And the Word was with God, distinct from Father and Holy Spirit
And the Word was God, the Logos is true Deity
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Actually read your OT with understanding and you will see that already their are differentia in the descriptions of LORD or Yahweh .
The angel of God, the word of God, Yahweh talking to Yahweh …
Segal's sources are scripture and it is Bible scholarship of the highest excellence.
Even the Jews understand that Yahweh had two natures and that one in particular was referred to as the Angel of God and seemed
to be the One that interacted with the patriarchs and the prophets.
The angel of God, the word of God, Yahweh talking to Yahweh …
Segal's sources are scripture and it is Bible scholarship of the highest excellence.
Even the Jews understand that Yahweh had two natures and that one in particular was referred to as the Angel of God and seemed
to be the One that interacted with the patriarchs and the prophets.
I like creeds.....creeds clarify.
I like faith statements, they also clarify.
The lack of creeds and faith statements......and lack of churches even honoring the ones they do have......is the reason for more home churches springing up. Not a bad thing at all...its how the church started out, in homes with fellowship of the like-minded.
I like faith statements, they also clarify.
The lack of creeds and faith statements......and lack of churches even honoring the ones they do have......is the reason for more home churches springing up. Not a bad thing at all...its how the church started out, in homes with fellowship of the like-minded.
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frankly, I find people who insult others the way you seem to like to do while calling themself saved, to be well, kind of their own worst enemy.
your testimony goes south real quick dude
does everyone on here love what you write? well of course not! is everyone who disagrees with you lazy?
well ask yourself if they are lazy, why would they read what you post when they disagree?
quite a quandary
not too lazy to reply to your upcoming insults, but definitely not interested in doing so
Jeremiah 1:9
Then the LORD put forth his hand, and touched my mouth. And the Lord said unto me, Behold, I have put my words in thy mouth.
Exodus 14:19
And the angel of God, which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before their face, and stood behind them:
Judges 6: (Gideon)
12 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him, and said unto him, The LORD is with thee, thou mighty man of valour.
14 And the LORD looked upon him, and said, Go in this thy might, and thou shalt save Israel from the hand of the Midianites:
have not I sent thee?
20 And the angel of God said unto him, Take the flesh and the unleavened cakes, and lay them upon this rock, and pour out the broth. And he did so.
Then the LORD put forth his hand, and touched my mouth. And the Lord said unto me, Behold, I have put my words in thy mouth.
Exodus 14:19
And the angel of God, which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before their face, and stood behind them:
Judges 6: (Gideon)
12 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him, and said unto him, The LORD is with thee, thou mighty man of valour.
14 And the LORD looked upon him, and said, Go in this thy might, and thou shalt save Israel from the hand of the Midianites:
have not I sent thee?
20 And the angel of God said unto him, Take the flesh and the unleavened cakes, and lay them upon this rock, and pour out the broth. And he did so.
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Waggles, I spoke too soon, my apologies. I looked up the book in question, and while I haven't read it, so I can't give an opinion on it, it is not what I thought it was. The Bibliography has many primary sources.
I believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit, these three are One YHWH, for reasons I stated earlier. I thought the book you were referencing was refuting the Deity of Christ and confusing it with some ancient heresy. From what I can tell, from what little I hae read that is not the case.
Again, I apologize for being hasty and not reading cyarefully, and answering before I knew what I was replying to. That was an error on my part Blessings
I believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit, these three are One YHWH, for reasons I stated earlier. I thought the book you were referencing was refuting the Deity of Christ and confusing it with some ancient heresy. From what I can tell, from what little I hae read that is not the case.
Again, I apologize for being hasty and not reading cyarefully, and answering before I knew what I was replying to. That was an error on my part Blessings
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Ok. I was apologizing because of speaking without listening, not because I am agreeing with anything. I haven't read the book he is referring to, so I can't say either way.
The title "two powers in heaven" is off-putting though. There is only one power. Father, Son, and Spirit are one God, therefore it is one power, the power of God
I don't know if I am misinterpreting the title, because I haven't read it, but that ambiguity in the title is what made me judge the book hastily. But I should stop talking about it, because I haven't read it.
The title "two powers in heaven" is off-putting though. There is only one power. Father, Son, and Spirit are one God, therefore it is one power, the power of God
I don't know if I am misinterpreting the title, because I haven't read it, but that ambiguity in the title is what made me judge the book hastily. But I should stop talking about it, because I haven't read it.
It is incorrect to say God has two natures. Jesus has two natures in one person, human nature and pre existent Divine nature in one person/ the hypostatic union.
God is three person's in one being. Three person's, one nature, one Being. Echad.
Nature, as far as I can tell, is defined by attributes. Jesus had all human attributes, so He was fully human. He had all attributes of Deity, so He was fully Divine or full Deity. One person, two natures
The Father, Son, and Spirit share the same Divine attributes and perfections, being of one nature, essence, ousia, or however else you want to put it. Three person's, one ousia, one nature, etc.
God does not have two natures. Three person's, one nature. Christ has two natures, but is One person. One person with two natures, unmingled and undiminished. This is the unfatahomable mystery we call the Incarnation
God is three person's in one being. Three person's, one nature, one Being. Echad.
Nature, as far as I can tell, is defined by attributes. Jesus had all human attributes, so He was fully human. He had all attributes of Deity, so He was fully Divine or full Deity. One person, two natures
The Father, Son, and Spirit share the same Divine attributes and perfections, being of one nature, essence, ousia, or however else you want to put it. Three person's, one ousia, one nature, etc.
God does not have two natures. Three person's, one nature. Christ has two natures, but is One person. One person with two natures, unmingled and undiminished. This is the unfatahomable mystery we call the Incarnation
John 5:18- Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do:
1. As the Son of Man in the Incarnation, Jesus had to be dependant on the Father AND the Holy Spirit because He had to be made like His brethren (us) in all things (Hebrews 2:17) , and chose to, in all things, to walk as we walk, so that He might bring us to glory and so that we might follow in His footsteps: So being made like us in all things, and walking as we walk in all things, involved submission, dependance, on both the Father and the Spirit. That is the path we must take, that is the path that He chose to take, NOT because He was inferior, but because He was made in all points like unto us, yet without sin.
2. Jesus did not come to do His own will, but the will of the Father. In other words, Jesus was not out doing His own thing, being one with the Father in purpose.
for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Did you catch that? Whatever things the Father does, the Son does likewise. In other words, EVERYTHING the Father does, the Son does.
20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
The Son does whatever He sees the Father do, and the Father shows Him EVERYTHING. So everything the Father does, the Son does likewise. Like Create the Kosmos, forgive sins, etc
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
The Son is due the same honor as the Father.
The verses that you point to as showing Jesus being inferior in some way to the Father are actually some of the strongest texts in support of His Deity, though they do show that the Son and the Father have different roles within the Godhead.
Philippians 2 does not show Christ to be inferior to the Father. It is speaking of the Incarnation. Jesus was in the form of God, being equal with God, but humbled Himself, in order to save us, and was exalted again to the Glory which He had with the Father before the worlds were made. In other words, there was some aspect of Glory that He laid aside to become a man, and then becoming and man and fulfilling our redemption, He returned to His previous Glory, ie He was exalted again, exalted BACK to His rightful place at the Father's right hand, where He had existed in eternity past (John 1:2; 1j John 1:2)
1. As the Son of Man in the Incarnation, Jesus had to be dependant on the Father AND the Holy Spirit because He had to be made like His brethren (us) in all things (Hebrews 2:17) , and chose to, in all things, to walk as we walk, so that He might bring us to glory and so that we might follow in His footsteps: So being made like us in all things, and walking as we walk in all things, involved submission, dependance, on both the Father and the Spirit. That is the path we must take, that is the path that He chose to take, NOT because He was inferior, but because He was made in all points like unto us, yet without sin.
2. Jesus did not come to do His own will, but the will of the Father. In other words, Jesus was not out doing His own thing, being one with the Father in purpose.
for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Did you catch that? Whatever things the Father does, the Son does likewise. In other words, EVERYTHING the Father does, the Son does.
20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
The Son does whatever He sees the Father do, and the Father shows Him EVERYTHING. So everything the Father does, the Son does likewise. Like Create the Kosmos, forgive sins, etc
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
The Son is due the same honor as the Father.
The verses that you point to as showing Jesus being inferior in some way to the Father are actually some of the strongest texts in support of His Deity, though they do show that the Son and the Father have different roles within the Godhead.
Philippians 2 does not show Christ to be inferior to the Father. It is speaking of the Incarnation. Jesus was in the form of God, being equal with God, but humbled Himself, in order to save us, and was exalted again to the Glory which He had with the Father before the worlds were made. In other words, there was some aspect of Glory that He laid aside to become a man, and then becoming and man and fulfilling our redemption, He returned to His previous Glory, ie He was exalted again, exalted BACK to His rightful place at the Father's right hand, where He had existed in eternity past (John 1:2; 1j John 1:2)
@Macabeus I'm not sure why you keep focusing on the incarnation and using it to cover for the fact Jesus is over presented as less great or less authoritative as the Father. I specifically mentioned stuff which applies to Jesus before the incarnation and after His ascension, so I don't see how the incarnation is a valid excuses for the points which I brought up and you have yet to address.
Also, it seems that you impose a number of extra-biblical assumptions on the holy scriptures which taint your interpretation. For example, scripture does not say that Jesus has two natures (though it says He is a man and He is our God, it does not use natures or metaphysics to describe this), or that He possesses all the "divine attributes" (whatever those are). Nor does scripture say that the three persons are one being, or even one God. And it doesn't follow that something which is called theos/elohim is the one true God, because angels, kings, and even Satan are referred to in that way.
Now there is one argument of substance that I think deserves responding to, and one which I need to spend more time studying in the word of God:
I take it you are referring to Isaiah 44:24:
Notice that the pronouns are singular: e.g. "I" and "myself". In the Hebrew for the verse you also have singular verbs. This shows that a single person is speaking here. For example, when Jesus refers to Himself and the Father together He says "we" and "our", not "I" and "my":
Moreover, I'm not aware of any clear instance in scripture where singular pronouns are to refer to multiple persons at once. One would need some good evidence to think singular pronouns can refer to a multiple persons at once in order for it to even be plausible to interpret Isaiah 44:24 as referring to both the Father and the Son. And even if you think singular pronouns could refer to a multi-personal being (whatever that means exactly), you would have to admit it is at least slightly odd that singular pronouns are used with regard to the Creator in Isaiah 44:24, but in Gen 1:27 we have a plural pronoun used.
So how then are we to reconcile Isaiah 44:24 with the fact that both the Father and the Son were active in creation? Well, first we can look at the context of the verse and see that the LORD is setting Himself against idols, and hence it would seem that His primary purpose in 44:24 is to dispel any notion that any of the idols of the people created anything. That's why He says He made "all things", leaving no room for the false gods to have made anything on their own. Moreover, His saying that He "alone stretched out the heavens" and "spread out the earth by myself" could be understood as saying that He did it without any involvement from the false gods that the people of Israel were turning to and making for themselves.
Alternatively, one could make a distinction between different roles in creation. We see in the NT that from the Father are all things, and through the Son are all things (e.g. 1 Cor 8:6, 1 Cor 11:12 (notice that 'God' here means the Father as usual and as in verse 3), Col 1:16, John 1:3). Hence one could say that from the Father alone (and by Himself) are all things. Also, the picture I get from Hebrews 1:2 is that the Father is the Creator in the most proper sense, with the Son being the instrument of creation who was used *by the Father*. That would seem to be why it says "through whom [Jesus] also he [the Father] created the world" (ESV, but the point holds in other formal translations). Moreover, Jesus Himself refers to the creation as being "God's [the Father's] creation" in Rev 3:14.
Such a distinction may seem contrived, but I think scripture often speaks in such a way, for example when Jesus said that the Father judges no-one at the final judgement:
yet we see that the Father is also said to judge at the final judgement (John 8:50, John 5:45, Rom 2:16). The way scripture explains this is that "God judges . . . through Christ Jesus"; the Father is the ultimate judge, whereas Jesus is the immediate judge who judges on behalf of the Father.
Other examples could be given, such as Deuteronomy 32:12 saying that the LORD alone guided the Israelites, but we in fact know that the Israelites were guided by people such as Moses and Aaron. Also, Jesus says to call no man on earth your father because you have one Father, who is in heaven. If you want more examples then I thoroughly recommend section III of Joseph Hallet's "The Unity of God . . .", which you can read online: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...=onepage&q=Joseph Hallet unity of God&f=false
In particular, scripture has a theme of ultimate vs. immediate. God was the ultimate leader of the Israelites, while Moses was their immediate leader. God is our ultimate Father, but we have immediate human fathers. The Father is the ultimate saviour and Jesus is the immediate saviour. The Father is the ultimate ruler (or most high God or "only sovereign"), and Jesus is the immediate ruler (or Lord/Master/Boss) (1 Cor 8:6, Eph 4:6, 1 Tim 6:15, 1 Tim 2:5, Jude 1:4). In a similar way, one could interpret scripture as saying the Father is the ultimate creator, and Jesus is the immediate creator and/or instrument of creation. Hence when the Father says to be the only Creator, it can be understood as meaning the only ultimate Creator, just as when He is styled the only (ultimate) Father, or the only (ultimate) saviour, or the only (ultimate) God.
Also, it seems that you impose a number of extra-biblical assumptions on the holy scriptures which taint your interpretation. For example, scripture does not say that Jesus has two natures (though it says He is a man and He is our God, it does not use natures or metaphysics to describe this), or that He possesses all the "divine attributes" (whatever those are). Nor does scripture say that the three persons are one being, or even one God. And it doesn't follow that something which is called theos/elohim is the one true God, because angels, kings, and even Satan are referred to in that way.
Now there is one argument of substance that I think deserves responding to, and one which I need to spend more time studying in the word of God:
I take it you are referring to Isaiah 44:24:
Notice that the pronouns are singular: e.g. "I" and "myself". In the Hebrew for the verse you also have singular verbs. This shows that a single person is speaking here. For example, when Jesus refers to Himself and the Father together He says "we" and "our", not "I" and "my":
Moreover, I'm not aware of any clear instance in scripture where singular pronouns are to refer to multiple persons at once. One would need some good evidence to think singular pronouns can refer to a multiple persons at once in order for it to even be plausible to interpret Isaiah 44:24 as referring to both the Father and the Son. And even if you think singular pronouns could refer to a multi-personal being (whatever that means exactly), you would have to admit it is at least slightly odd that singular pronouns are used with regard to the Creator in Isaiah 44:24, but in Gen 1:27 we have a plural pronoun used.
So how then are we to reconcile Isaiah 44:24 with the fact that both the Father and the Son were active in creation? Well, first we can look at the context of the verse and see that the LORD is setting Himself against idols, and hence it would seem that His primary purpose in 44:24 is to dispel any notion that any of the idols of the people created anything. That's why He says He made "all things", leaving no room for the false gods to have made anything on their own. Moreover, His saying that He "alone stretched out the heavens" and "spread out the earth by myself" could be understood as saying that He did it without any involvement from the false gods that the people of Israel were turning to and making for themselves.
Alternatively, one could make a distinction between different roles in creation. We see in the NT that from the Father are all things, and through the Son are all things (e.g. 1 Cor 8:6, 1 Cor 11:12 (notice that 'God' here means the Father as usual and as in verse 3), Col 1:16, John 1:3). Hence one could say that from the Father alone (and by Himself) are all things. Also, the picture I get from Hebrews 1:2 is that the Father is the Creator in the most proper sense, with the Son being the instrument of creation who was used *by the Father*. That would seem to be why it says "through whom [Jesus] also he [the Father] created the world" (ESV, but the point holds in other formal translations). Moreover, Jesus Himself refers to the creation as being "God's [the Father's] creation" in Rev 3:14.
Such a distinction may seem contrived, but I think scripture often speaks in such a way, for example when Jesus said that the Father judges no-one at the final judgement:
yet we see that the Father is also said to judge at the final judgement (John 8:50, John 5:45, Rom 2:16). The way scripture explains this is that "God judges . . . through Christ Jesus"; the Father is the ultimate judge, whereas Jesus is the immediate judge who judges on behalf of the Father.
Other examples could be given, such as Deuteronomy 32:12 saying that the LORD alone guided the Israelites, but we in fact know that the Israelites were guided by people such as Moses and Aaron. Also, Jesus says to call no man on earth your father because you have one Father, who is in heaven. If you want more examples then I thoroughly recommend section III of Joseph Hallet's "The Unity of God . . .", which you can read online: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...=onepage&q=Joseph Hallet unity of God&f=false
In particular, scripture has a theme of ultimate vs. immediate. God was the ultimate leader of the Israelites, while Moses was their immediate leader. God is our ultimate Father, but we have immediate human fathers. The Father is the ultimate saviour and Jesus is the immediate saviour. The Father is the ultimate ruler (or most high God or "only sovereign"), and Jesus is the immediate ruler (or Lord/Master/Boss) (1 Cor 8:6, Eph 4:6, 1 Tim 6:15, 1 Tim 2:5, Jude 1:4). In a similar way, one could interpret scripture as saying the Father is the ultimate creator, and Jesus is the immediate creator and/or instrument of creation. Hence when the Father says to be the only Creator, it can be understood as meaning the only ultimate Creator, just as when He is styled the only (ultimate) Father, or the only (ultimate) saviour, or the only (ultimate) God.