When it's awkward to question...

[Adam4Eve]

Hello everybody,

May I take this opportunity to thank you for responding to my threads so far (2 in total).

It's always healthy to allow your perspective to be checked by the wider Christian community.
It helps you to discover if you're going off path, or indeed if you're innocently being led off path.
That's my view anyway.

I just want to start a discussion which has been 'inspired' by the thoughts generated as a result of a comment from one particular user.
In my first thread Dino246 said (among other things)
"Kudos to you for questioning things that you don't think are right".

'Questioning things' is what I want to get your opinions on.
If somebody questions the beliefs that underpin Christianity as a whole, for example the crucifiction of Jesus, then most Christians would take issue with this regardless of denomination.

However, when it comes to other things Christians might not be in such universal agreement.
For example, one thing that pops up all the time on CC is the issue of tithing.

Now I don't want to start a thread specifically about tithing as I'm just using this as one example.
Most Christians see the need for voluntary giving (donating) due to the reality that Church bills need paying, but some Christians (mostly pentacostal?) seem to believe that compulsory giving is still a thing.

Malachi is always used to justify this, while others will point out that we're no longer under the old covenant and so tithing money/herbs/livestock is no longer a requirement.
Again, this is just an example.

What I really want this thread to be about is that despite many Christian organisations claiming to have an open policy to questions, what to do if one is made to feel awkward for questioning certain aspects that are central only to that specific Church of denomination?
What to do when made to feel awkward if you don't tow the 'party line'.

For example if a particular group of Churches states that compulsory giving (tithing) is still a 'thing', but that you disagree with this, what to make of it if this is seen as an indicator that you haven't reached a certain level of faith.
By level I don't mean rank, rather a measure of the strength of your faith.

This is a very serious topic and others on CC will no doubt have their own experiences.

Given that God has one message for us all, and doesn't apply different standards to different people, why are there variations in beliefs within Christianity?
I don't understand the whole denomination thing. I understand there are differences, although I don't care what they are exactly, I just don't understand why Christians have split themselves up in some way and why differences in teaching have developed.

Furthermore, and as a very serious point (the main point of this thread), when do those particular differences in beliefs and reactions to questioning go from a variation, to manipulation or even spiritual abuse?

 

[Adam4Eve]

Thanks for approving this thread, admin.

 

[Nehemiah6]

For example if a particular group of Churches states that compulsory giving (tithing) is still a 'thing', but that you disagree with this, what to make of it if this is seen as an indicator that you haven't reached a certain level of faith.

In response to your concerns please note:

1. One needs to know what Scripture teaches before questioning any belief. As noted, tithing was a requirement under the Old Covenant, and there is no disputing that. However Christian giving is different under the New Covenant and there is clear teaching on that also.

2. One needs to know what any church's Statement of Faith says before deciding to join. Which includes knowing what certain denominations hold to (when a denominational church is involved).

3. One needs to be prepared to sit down with the pastor(s) and bring up specif concerns about specific teachings. If there is serious disagreement, then a polite farewell is all that is required.

As to Christian forums, there is always give and take, so that is not really an issue. You will find quite a few quirky beliefs being expressed, and you can respond as you see fit.

 

[posthuman]

What I really want this thread to be about is that despite many Christian organisations claiming to have an open policy to questions, what to do if one is made to feel awkward for questioning certain aspects that are central only to that specific Church of denomination?
What to do when made to feel awkward if you don't tow the 'party line'.

For example if a particular group of Churches states that compulsory giving (tithing) is still a 'thing', but that you disagree with this, what to make of it if this is seen as an indicator that you haven't reached a certain level of faith.
By level I don't mean rank, rather a measure of the strength of your faith.

. . .

Furthermore, and as a very serious point (the main point of this thread), when do those particular differences in beliefs and reactions to questioning go from a variation, to manipulation or even spiritual abuse?

i can give you a particular example about tithing touching on what your main topic is.

i was part of smallish, weekly Bible study a few years ago focused on an altogether different topic, and in passing the man leading the group discussions mentioned something about tithing, making an analogy about the main thing we were discussing. as we were all talking about what he had brought up, and in the scope of the analogy he had made to tithing, it became apparent to me that everyone who was engaging in the discussion presumed that regularly donating 10% of their gross income to our church was an unquestionable 'law' of being a Christian. everything they had all said was said with the perspective that this 100% the case.

i'm not sure if i made it clear in the most recent tithing thread here, but i do not believe this is the truth. giving is to be 'not under compulsion' and the 'tithe' is wholly a component of the Sinai covenant with the children of Israel, and have this belief because of what i read in the Bible -- i can fully support it through scripture. i don't think we ought to even use the word 'tithe' to refer to our giving in any form; we twist it's meaning when we do; it's incorrect language. not going into all that; just so that you know where i'm coming from when i was sitting in the small group that night.

now, this small group was mostly comprised of elders of our church, pastors and former pastors of other churches and the like. professors at a local seminary - the man leading the group is the man who teaches 'preaching' at that school. me, my background is as a mathematician/physicist/artist. no seminary education. no preaching. not an elder. not a deacon. never have been one. never preached or taught or anything. have only been at this church for about a year.

so i'm sitting there, in the 'noob' seat, listening to these men who all have a lot of authority in the church i've been attending and in the broader 'church circle' of the local area, and i'm realizing that i think they are all holding views which are completely in contradiction to the scripture and sound doctrine about the tithe. tithing is not the topic of the conversation we're all having; it's not even tangential to the topic but it just happens to be part of an analogy being used.
how do you suppose i felt? yes, just like you said, awkward, under pressure not to say anything because there's an implication i'd be considered an heretic, faithless, unbelieving, a fool, etc -- out of toe with the party line. but i'm also feeling a burning desire to stand up for what i know is true, especially because these are for the most part people and families with a lot of influence in the church, in young people attending the seminary who will grow up to be influential themselves.

what did i do?
i had some things to say about our main topic, and i said them, then without pausing to 'cede the floor' i want into a longish monologue about tithing -- "by the way" -- i told them all what my understanding was and how i see it justified in scripture. how i think we abuse the language of that subject and how i see it as detrimental and dangerous.

now, that wasn't easy to do. it was bold, and took faith, and courage. as far as i'm concerned, it wasn't me that did that, but the Spirit of Truth in me, the life given me, and that's how i had the words and the strength to say them -- because the flesh felt all that pressure, but the Spirit didn't. so, with regards to your thread topic, that's what i believe we need to do in such a situation, is submit to the Spirit in you in faith -- if it is truly the Spirit of God -- and He will make you stand. we must trust Him.

how did it turn out in my case? a few people brought some objections/questions to what i said, and i gave answers, and no one could say anything in reply. a couple of the women said they had never heard or even thought about questioning 'tithing' in this way, and the room went silent for a few moments. the group leader saw this, and got us moving again back our main topic. we're all still on good terms, there wasn't any ill will, and it was clear that i'd given them something to think about. so, you could say, God was faithful to me & to the people i was studying with: He continued to work in renewing their minds, and instead of any of the negative things that the implicated pressure that was there coming to fruition, God increased my honor & reputation among them. i got an XP boost and leveled up from 'noob' haha

i need to say, what i've described is not always the case in the type of situation that the main thread topic concerns. in the same Bible study group, people brought up things that they felt strongly about and thought they could justify, but in the open discussion other people showed that the scripture reveals the truth about these things is not at all what the first people had been arguing. i am absolutely not saying that every time a person believes that what 'the church' in some guise is saying is wrong, that is God in their heart leading them and that they should boldly walk in faith by correcting the elders or preachers or whoever they disagree with.

what happened in the case i described about tithing, and the other cases i alluded to about other topics, is that an argument was made openly and a justification given for it by a believer, it was examined by other believers, debate being made with justified counterarguments, implications explored, and some consensus was formed in the light of what truths could be established in our collective wisdom and understanding. sometimes the argument could not be opposed, sometimes it was dismissed, sometimes it was inconclusive.

we need to consider ourselves and our opinions and our understandings with sober judgement, be willing to be changed, but not so willing that we might be carried away by every persuasive argument. the truth needs to be paramount - we should buy it, and not sell it -- i know that personally i appear very dogmatic about some things; that's because i believe i can strongly defend them as being true. it's not ((i hope!)) that i am stiff-necked about any such thing, but that i have endurance in my faith. i like to say, i can be convinced i am wrong, for sure, but i will make you work hard to convince me. i'm not going to buy the truth sight unseen, and i want to see all of it

 

[Adam4Eve]

i can give you a particular example about tithing touching on what your main topic is.

i was part of smallish, weekly Bible study a few years ago focused on an altogether different topic, and in passing the man leading the group discussions mentioned something about tithing, making an analogy about the main thing we were discussing. as we were all talking about what he had brought up, and in the scope of the analogy he had made to tithing, it became apparent to me that everyone who was engaging in the discussion presumed that regularly donating 10% of their gross income to our church was an unquestionable 'law' of being a Christian. everything they had all said was said with the perspective that this 100% the case.

i'm not sure if i made it clear in the most recent tithing thread here, but i do not believe this is the truth. giving is to be 'not under compulsion' and the 'tithe' is wholly a component of the Sinai covenant with the children of Israel, and have this belief because of what i read in the Bible -- i can fully support it through scripture. i don't think we ought to even use the word 'tithe' to refer to our giving in any form; we twist it's meaning when we do; it's incorrect language. not going into all that; just so that you know where i'm coming from when i was sitting in the small group that night.

now, this small group was mostly comprised of elders of our church, pastors and former pastors of other churches and the like. professors at a local seminary - the man leading the group is the man who teaches 'preaching' at that school. me, my background is as a mathematician/physicist/artist. no seminary education. no preaching. not an elder. not a deacon. never have been one. never preached or taught or anything. have only been at this church for about a year.

so i'm sitting there, in the 'noob' seat, listening to these men who all have a lot of authority in the church i've been attending and in the broader 'church circle' of the local area, and i'm realizing that i think they are all holding views which are completely in contradiction to the scripture and sound doctrine about the tithe. tithing is not the topic of the conversation we're all having; it's not even tangential to the topic but it just happens to be part of an analogy being used.
how do you suppose i felt? yes, just like you said, awkward, under pressure not to say anything because there's an implication i'd be considered an heretic, faithless, unbelieving, a fool, etc -- out of toe with the party line. but i'm also feeling a burning desire to stand up for what i know is true, especially because these are for the most part people and families with a lot of influence in the church, in young people attending the seminary who will grow up to be influential themselves.

what did i do?
i had some things to say about our main topic, and i said them, then without pausing to 'cede the floor' i want into a longish monologue about tithing -- "by the way" -- i told them all what my understanding was and how i see it justified in scripture. how i think we abuse the language of that subject and how i see it as detrimental and dangerous.

now, that wasn't easy to do. it was bold, and took faith, and courage. as far as i'm concerned, it wasn't me that did that, but the Spirit of Truth in me, the life given me, and that's how i had the words and the strength to say them -- because the flesh felt all that pressure, but the Spirit didn't. so, with regards to your thread topic, that's what i believe we need to do in such a situation, is submit to the Spirit in you in faith -- if it is truly the Spirit of God -- and He will make you stand. we must trust Him.

how did it turn out in my case? a few people brought some objections/questions to what i said, and i gave answers, and no one could say anything in reply. a couple of the women said they had never heard or even thought about questioning 'tithing' in this way, and the room went silent for a few moments. the group leader saw this, and got us moving again back our main topic. we're all still on good terms, there wasn't any ill will, and it was clear that i'd given them something to think about. so, you could say, God was faithful to me & to the people i was studying with: He continued to work in renewing their minds, and instead of any of the negative things that the implicated pressure that was there coming to fruition, God increased my honor & reputation among them. i got an XP boost and leveled up from 'noob' haha

i need to say, what i've described is not always the case in the type of situation that the main thread topic concerns. in the same Bible study group, people brought up things that they felt strongly about and thought they could justify, but in the open discussion other people showed that the scripture reveals the truth about these things is not at all what the first people had been arguing. i am absolutely not saying that every time a person believes that what 'the church' in some guise is saying is wrong, that is God in their heart leading them and that they should boldly walk in faith by correcting the elders or preachers or whoever they disagree with.

what happened in the case i described about tithing, and the other cases i alluded to about other topics, is that an argument was made openly and a justification given for it by a believer, it was examined by other believers, debate being made with justified counterarguments, implications explored, and some consensus was formed in the light of what truths could be established in our collective wisdom and understanding. sometimes the argument could not be opposed, sometimes it was dismissed, sometimes it was inconclusive.

we need to consider ourselves and our opinions and our understandings with sober judgement, be willing to be changed, but not so willing that we might be carried away by every persuasive argument. the truth needs to be paramount - we should buy it, and not sell it -- i know that personally i appear very dogmatic about some things; that's because i believe i can strongly defend them as being true. it's not ((i hope!)) that i am stiff-necked about any such thing, but that i have endurance in my faith. i like to say, i can be convinced i am wrong, for sure, but i will make you work hard to convince me. i'm not going to buy the truth sight unseen, and i want to see all of it

Thanks for sharing your experience, and for providing clarity and depth of explanation.

From my admittedly limited experience much of the incorrect teachings or attitudes revolve around money or favours.
Church 'elders' (in other words, normal people who claim to have some kind of 'rank' in the Church) who preach misleading doctrine more often than not benefit in some way from people donating money or people doing favours for them.

Perhaps their wage or monetary gift from the church is maintained, or their job if employed by the church.
Perhaps they get things done for them by members of the church that they would otherwise have to pay much more for.

Perhaps the pastor, as well as having a standard manse, also has everything else paid for by the church: car, utilities, holidays.

It isn't always obviously harsh abuse, but Christians would do well to be aware that Church is not immune from the "me me me" attitude.

 

[p_rehbein]

I didn't know Yet had a child............hmm

 

[dcontroversal]

Hello everybody,

May I take this opportunity to thank you for responding to my threads so far (2 in total).

It's always healthy to allow your perspective to be checked by the wider Christian community.
It helps you to discover if you're going off path, or indeed if you're innocently being led off path.
That's my view anyway.

I just want to start a discussion which has been 'inspired' by the thoughts generated as a result of a comment from one particular user.
In my first thread Dino246 said (among other things)
"Kudos to you for questioning things that you don't think are right".

'Questioning things' is what I want to get your opinions on.
If somebody questions the beliefs that underpin Christianity as a whole, for example the crucifiction of Jesus, then most Christians would take issue with this regardless of denomination.

However, when it comes to other things Christians might not be in such universal agreement.
For example, one thing that pops up all the time on CC is the issue of tithing.

Now I don't want to start a thread specifically about tithing as I'm just using this as one example.
Most Christians see the need for voluntary giving (donating) due to the reality that Church bills need paying, but some Christians (mostly pentacostal?) seem to believe that compulsory giving is still a thing.

Malachi is always used to justify this, while others will point out that we're no longer under the old covenant and so tithing money/herbs/livestock is no longer a requirement.
Again, this is just an example.

What I really want this thread to be about is that despite many Christian organisations claiming to have an open policy to questions, what to do if one is made to feel awkward for questioning certain aspects that are central only to that specific Church of denomination?
What to do when made to feel awkward if you don't tow the 'party line'.

For example if a particular group of Churches states that compulsory giving (tithing) is still a 'thing', but that you disagree with this, what to make of it if this is seen as an indicator that you haven't reached a certain level of faith.
By level I don't mean rank, rather a measure of the strength of your faith.

This is a very serious topic and others on CC will no doubt have their own experiences.

Given that God has one message for us all, and doesn't apply different standards to different people, why are there variations in beliefs within Christianity?
I don't understand the whole denomination thing. I understand there are differences, although I don't care what they are exactly, I just don't understand why Christians have split themselves up in some way and why differences in teaching have developed.

Furthermore, and as a very serious point (the main point of this thread), when do those particular differences in beliefs and reactions to questioning go from a variation, to manipulation or even spiritual abuse?

The truth sets us free from all of the religious rigmarole and heresy......when it comes to giving.....the bible is clear under the new covenant.....

God loves a cheerful giver and let each person set aside what his conscience deems appropriate..........and like you pointed out...WE ARE NOT UNDER THE LEVITICAL decree to give 10% <--And I will note...10% went directly to the priests, anything above that was considered an offering.....

Now, having said that I will give a testimony....

When I first started serving God I never gave out of my check....on paper I had more than enough to pay my bills and live, but never seemed to have enough and always struggled......when I decided to write my budget the following way..

God
Food
Gas
Bills

I never had enough on paper to make it, but always made it, had enough, got raises, bonuses, etc.....I give 25% or more and always give ALL MY INCREASES......and God has blessed me.with retirement at age 45 with more than one can ask for.....!!

Come to your own conclusion!

 

[Miri]

Hi Adam,I know exactly what you mean about differences.

I had an issue in a small group in 2016.
I had been maybe 4 times it was held once a month.
One evening the subject somehow got into difficulties, how we deal with
them etc.

It soon became apparent that everyone in the group had this opinion,
that if you weren’t always joyful 100% of the time, that you were in sin in
same way, immature as a Christian and not following God as you should.

I was in a very difficult position (and still am) looking after my elderly aunt
who has various medical ailments and dementia, we have nearly lost her a few
times and at that time she was in hospital yet again, having nearly lost her
again, life was very stressful.

Anyway I pointed out that even Jesus wept, that the bible has plenty to say about
sorrow and grief and comfort. That’s it’s simply not possible to be happy all the
time and God doesn’t expect that from us. Only in the next life will there be
true joy when God wipes away all our tears and there will be no more tears,
sorrow, death etc.

They all pretty much shouted me down and accused me of not trusting God.

I was gob smacked. Asked how it was possible to be happy when someone you
loved was seriously ill in hospital. They insisted I was wrong and it was possible
to be happy if I was following God properly. They all had these benign sickly smiles
at that point as if to demonstrate it!



Then the subject changed to something else.

The next day I rang the leader and thanked her for her hospitality, but said I
wouldn’t be going any more. That it wasn’t the right group for me that I
preferred a group that supported and prayed for its members rather than
putting them down for having problems!


Looking back there were several African people in the group and they seemed to
be the most vocal in their disagreement. I think culturally African
churches do lean towards the above thinking. Maybe they are more use to living
in poverty, death, conflict than us in the west. Maybe that’s why they have this
thinking I don’t know.


But anyway you are always going to find differences of opinion. They are shaped
by culture and circumstances. I would say look in the bible use that as your guide, rather
than people or denominations. You will also find as you grow and change your
thinking will change as God does business with you, so remain teachable in
that respect.

 

[JaumeJ]

Hi Adam,I know exactly what you mean about differences.

I had an issue in a small group in 2016.
I had been maybe 4 times it was held once a month.
One evening the subject somehow got into difficulties, how we deal with
them etc.

It soon became apparent that everyone in the group had this opinion,
that if you weren’t always joyful 100% of the time, that you were in sin in
same way, immature as a Christian and not following God as you should.

I was in a very difficult position (and still am) looking after my elderly aunt
who has various medical ailments and dementia, we have nearly lost her a few
times and at that time she was in hospital yet again, having nearly lost her
again, life was very stressful.

Anyway I pointed out that even Jesus wept, that the bible has plenty to say about
sorrow and grief and comfort. That’s it’s simply not possible to be happy all the
time and God doesn’t expect that from us. Only in the next life will there be
true joy when God wipes away all our tears and there will be no more tears,
sorrow, death etc.

They all pretty much shouted me down and accused me of not trusting God.

I was gob smacked. Asked how it was possible to be happy when someone you
loved was seriously ill in hospital. They insisted I was wrong and it was possible
to be happy if I was following God properly. They all had these benign sickly smiles
at that point as if to demonstrate it!



Then the subject changed to something else.

The next day I rang the leader and thanked her for her hospitality, but said I
wouldn’t be going any more. That it wasn’t the right group for me that I
preferred a group that supported and prayed for its members rather than
putting them down for having problems!


Looking back there were several African people in the group and they seemed to
be the most vocal in their disagreement. I think culturally African
churches do lean towards the above thinking. Maybe they are more use to living
in poverty, death, conflict than us in the west. Maybe that’s why they have this
thinking I don’t know.


But anyway you are always going to find differences of opinion. They are shaped
by culture and circumstances. I would say look in the bible use that as your guide, rather
than people or denominations. You will also find as you grow and change your
thinking will change as God does business with you, so remain teachable in
that respect.

Jesus wept.

 

[Lanolin]

I dont know about the whole compulsory giving thing. What do you do if you have no job, no regular income, how often are you supposed to give, is it everyone or is it just heads of households, what if your parents are unbelievers, or your spouse is. How does the church know that you gave when its supposed to be all in secret yet somehow you can get a tax refund because you gave to charity? Are you supoosed to declare your income. Does it have to be money, or can you give food, or time? Are children meant to give as well?

Does it have to be in a particular currency if its money, do they take credit cards?? What if you are in debt, do you still give if you are in debt? What is the money actually used for? Do you get a receipt? Do the richer people get treated better because they can give more than the poorer people?

Thats the questions I'd be asking.

 

[Adam4Eve]

I forgot to say that I think one of the things that happens subconsciously is that as you develop as a Christian, you're moulded into the particular beliefs of whatever Church or denomination you happen to attend.

I would suggest that relatively very few people read the Bible in it's entirety and then decide which Church best aligns with their interpretation of the Bible.

Instead, they hear passages for the first time from a preacher. But by the very nature of how modern preaching seems to work, you're not just given what the Bible says but the preacher's individual interpretation or perspective too.

This means that you're not actually hearing God's word, but the word of the preacher.
If he's an honest and good preacher then the two will be the same, but often times this is not the case.

This 'moulding' and force feeding of other's interpretations will make you swear by a particular set of values, even though to other people, they're blatantly incorrect.

Tithing serves as a good example.
Some people will swear that Malachi provides the reason for compulsory giving.
But Malachi isn't even about that, it's about organising resources in times of good/bad.
Furthermore, it is under the old covenant, whereas we are under the new.

My Church drives tithing (compulsory) quite a lot.
I once asked for Biblical references to support this.
I will say that in all honesty I wasn't made to feel awkward for asking, but the explanation I received was detail light and emotion heavy.

The person answering my question went all the way back to Genesis to show me an example of somebody who raided a village and gave 10% of the treasure they had captured to his allies.
He forgot to mention that in the particular story he referenced, the victorious warriors actually did this voluntarily.

I mentioned my objection to Malachi, as above, and he had no answer or rebuttal.

He could not give me a solid verse in the NT where God commanded 10% of anything.
I asked bluntly
"In order to be saved does God ask us to have faith in Jesus...and also to give him money?".
There was a pause, and he looked visibly shocked by the blunt question.
I did not receive an answer.

Then came the emotional stuff.
It was essentially explained to me that the Church uses tithing as a way of 'seeing where your heart is at'.
In other words, to assess the strength of your faith.

I don't know about you, but if somebody wants to know what type of person you are, and it just so happens that you're encouraged to give them money to demonstrate that you're of good character, this screams 'manipulation' to me.

 

[AgapeShellArt]

Hello everybody,

May I take this opportunity to thank you for responding to my threads so far (2 in total).

It's always healthy to allow your perspective to be checked by the wider Christian community.
It helps you to discover if you're going off path, or indeed if you're innocently being led off path.
That's my view anyway.

I just want to start a discussion which has been 'inspired' by the thoughts generated as a result of a comment from one particular user.
In my first thread Dino246 said (among other things)
"Kudos to you for questioning things that you don't think are right".

'Questioning things' is what I want to get your opinions on.
If somebody questions the beliefs that underpin Christianity as a whole, for example the crucifiction of Jesus, then most Christians would take issue with this regardless of denomination.

However, when it comes to other things Christians might not be in such universal agreement.
For example, one thing that pops up all the time on CC is the issue of tithing.

Now I don't want to start a thread specifically about tithing as I'm just using this as one example.
Most Christians see the need for voluntary giving (donating) due to the reality that Church bills need paying, but some Christians (mostly pentacostal?) seem to believe that compulsory giving is still a thing.

Malachi is always used to justify this, while others will point out that we're no longer under the old covenant and so tithing money/herbs/livestock is no longer a requirement.
Again, this is just an example.

What I really want this thread to be about is that despite many Christian organisations claiming to have an open policy to questions, what to do if one is made to feel awkward for questioning certain aspects that are central only to that specific Church of denomination?
What to do when made to feel awkward if you don't tow the 'party line'.

For example if a particular group of Churches states that compulsory giving (tithing) is still a 'thing', but that you disagree with this, what to make of it if this is seen as an indicator that you haven't reached a certain level of faith.
By level I don't mean rank, rather a measure of the strength of your faith.

This is a very serious topic and others on CC will no doubt have their own experiences.

Given that God has one message for us all, and doesn't apply different standards to different people, why are there variations in beliefs within Christianity?
I don't understand the whole denomination thing. I understand there are differences, although I don't care what they are exactly, I just don't understand why Christians have split themselves up in some way and why differences in teaching have developed.

Furthermore, and as a very serious point (the main point of this thread), when do those particular differences in beliefs and reactions to questioning go from a variation, to manipulation or even spiritual abuse?

My view on giving is that we as new covenant believers are not required to give 10 percent but 100 percent of our lives.

People say this is unrealistic, but I believe they are deceived by the world and are looking around themselves instead of up.

Everything we have has been given to us by God. We are entrusted to give those things to others to show His love to this lost world.

We own nothing and we need nothing.

We are but Ambassador in a foreign world making our way back to our Father.

Material things are not to be treasured but the acts of love, the relationships built and the people whom God has placed in our lives, they are the true treasure

You know what is more precious than gold that we each own? Time.

How do you spend yours?

 

[AgapeShellArt]

Luke 14:25-34 New International Version (NIV)
The Cost of Being a Disciple
25 Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: 26 “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple. 27 And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.

28 “Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Won’t you first sit down and estimate the cost to see if you have enough money to complete it? 29 For if you lay the foundation and are not able to finish it, everyone who sees it will ridicule you, 30 saying, ‘This person began to build and wasn’t able to finish.’

31 “Or suppose a king is about to go to war against another king. Won’t he first sit down and consider whether he is able with ten thousand men to oppose the one coming against him with twenty thousand? 32 If he is not able, he will send a delegation while the other is still a long way off and will ask for terms of peace.33 In the same way, those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples.

34 “Salt is good, but if it loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again?

(Thought you would like the Bible verse for why I believe as I do)

Are you willing you suffer and die as a disciples of Jesus?

Or are you still like the Apostle Peter and at the stage in your life where you will deny him three times?

 

[AgapeShellArt]

God requires 100 percent not 10 percent.

Luke 14:
33 In the same way, those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples

 

[Adam4Eve]

God requires 100 percent not 10 percent.

Luke 14:
33 In the same way, those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples

Thank you for your posts, I think we all understand your point and agree with you.

Back to the point of the thread, what are your thoughts on my most recent post on this thread (other than this one, of course)?

 

[AgapeShellArt]

Thank you for your posts, I think we all understand your point and agree with you.

Back to the point of the thread, what are your thoughts on my most recent post on this thread (other than this one, of course)?

Sorry haven't read the whole thread yet. Let me see if I can before going to church.

 

[Adam4Eve]

The truth sets us free from all of the religious rigmarole and heresy......when it comes to giving.....the bible is clear under the new covenant.....

God loves a cheerful giver and let each person set aside what his conscience deems appropriate..........and like you pointed out...WE ARE NOT UNDER THE LEVITICAL decree to give 10% <--And I will note...10% went directly to the priests, anything above that was considered an offering.....

Now, having said that I will give a testimony....

When I first started serving God I never gave out of my check....on paper I had more than enough to pay my bills and live, but never seemed to have enough and always struggled......when I decided to write my budget the following way..

God
Food
Gas
Bills

I never had enough on paper to make it, but always made it, had enough, got raises, bonuses, etc.....I give 25% or more and always give ALL MY INCREASES......and God has blessed me.with retirement at age 45 with more than one can ask for.....!!

Come to your own conclusion!

Thank you for your wonderful testimonial.

As you indicated, God wants us, not our money.

With regards to your own situation as it was, you said you could afford things on paper (even with giving being taken into account) but essentially you were not keeping rigorous track of expenditure, thus your money wasn't going as far as it should have been able.

My conclusion is not that your situation improved as a direct consequence of you giving, because as you said God doesn't require this.
Instead, again as you indicated, you obviously sat down and started to organise your finances into a budget and because of this the money (of which you said you already had enough to support you even with giving being taken in to account) was more effectively managed.

 

[AgapeShellArt]

I forgot to say that I think one of the things that happens subconsciously is that as you develop as a Christian, you're moulded into the particular beliefs of whatever Church or denomination you happen to attend.

I would suggest that relatively very few people read the Bible in it's entirety and then decide which Church best aligns with their interpretation of the Bible.

Instead, they hear passages for the first time from a preacher. But by the very nature of how modern preaching seems to work, you're not just given what the Bible says but the preacher's individual interpretation or perspective too.

This means that you're not actually hearing God's word, but the word of the preacher.
If he's an honest and good preacher then the two will be the same, but often times this is not the case.

This 'moulding' and force feeding of other's interpretations will make you swear by a particular set of values, even though to other people, they're blatantly incorrect.

Tithing serves as a good example.
Some people will swear that Malachi provides the reason for compulsory giving.
But Malachi isn't even about that, it's about organising resources in times of good/bad.
Furthermore, it is under the old covenant, whereas we are under the new.

My Church drives tithing (compulsory) quite a lot.
I once asked for Biblical references to support this.
I will say that in all honesty I wasn't made to feel awkward for asking, but the explanation I received was detail light and emotion heavy.

The person answering my question went all the way back to Genesis to show me an example of somebody who raided a village and gave 10% of the treasure they had captured to his allies.
He forgot to mention that in the particular story he referenced, the victorious warriors actually did this voluntarily.

I mentioned my objection to Malachi, as above, and he had no answer or rebuttal.

He could not give me a solid verse in the NT where God commanded 10% of anything.
I asked bluntly
"In order to be saved does God ask us to have faith in Jesus...and also to give him money?".
There was a pause, and he looked visibly shocked by the blunt question.
I did not receive an answer.

Then came the emotional stuff.
It was essentially explained to me that the Church uses tithing as a way of 'seeing where your heart is at'.
In other words, to assess the strength of your faith.

I don't know about you, but if somebody wants to know what type of person you are, and it just so happens that you're encouraged to give them money to demonstrate that you're of good character, this screams 'manipulation' to me.

It's human nature to manipulate but God has given us the Holy spirit to discern good and evil.

Many people are babes and do not try and eat meat.

I don't believe reading your Bible fully is required. I know some people who I consider my elders in Christ who have never read it fully.

In contrast I read my Bible from Genesis to Revelation at least once every year for the last 20 years of my life and pray daily yet still but a toddler.

 

[AgapeShellArt]

I say pray each day what to do and how to spend your resources that God has blessed you with. That includes your time, talents and money.

Daily/Monthly/yearly budgeting of both time and money is good stewardship.

 

[AgapeShellArt]

There is two ways to see what you truly prioritize in life..what do you spend your time doing and what do you spend your money on?

Do you spend more on coffee than you give to further God's kingdom? (Doesn't have to be church but any mission work)

How often do you pray? Read your Bible? Fellowship with other Christains?

Is it more or less than the time you spend watching TV or surfing the internet?

One has to pray and ask God what you should do.

Is God really number one?

Or are you lying to yourself?