Is the Great Commission irrelevant for the church now?

[Absolutely]

Good point about the Trinity. My purpose is to address the obsession some churches have over the GC, it is as if the only reason why anyone becomes a Christian, or stay a Christian, is to win others to Christ/make disciples.

Matthew gospel is written to the Jews specifically. The Gentile church can of course learn from those words. For example, it is just like the book of Genesis, God commanded Noah to build an ark, but no Christian now would say that those set of instructions carry over to us now. We can learn from the faith Noah had, to build that ark while everyone else saw no rain, and probably laughed at him.

As for the specific GC instructions, why are we not willing to put the GC under the same category? Why do so many seem to elevate the GC to apply to all of us now?

Paul is not above Jesus.
Jesus said it. That in itself is good enough for me.
The Pauline phenomenon is shacked to some notion of disenfranchisement of the bible.
Paul should be in red letters.

Note how you guys tirelessly complain about the error of those that don't deify Paul.

Paul himself addressed that very phenomenon. " ...i am glad i baptised none of you...."
Even then they were on the verge of deifying him.

 

[kaylagrl]

To whom is thesuthorship of the Book of Acts attribute?


We are all to follow the Example of our Savior, Jesus.

Not all are Evangelists. Jesus did not go out into the world, rather He gave the Gosple to His own Tribe, His own peoplee.

Yes, we are to win others by our very being, but not all are evangelists, and to expect this of ALL is a ridiculous notion while each peron is given his speicial abilities to serve God.

Do not teach others they muist be evangelist if God has not told them to be so.

Sharing the Gospel does not make one an "evangelist" if you are speaking of those that do it as a profession or do so full time. We are to be able to share the hope we have within us. That is for all believers.

 

[JaumeJ]

Sharing the Gospel does not make one an "evangelist" if you are speaking of those that do it as a profession or do so full time. We are to be able to share the hope we have within us. That is for all believers.

This sounds right and good to me. I was getting the impression you were saying everyone s should be an evangelist…….

 

[Deuteronomy]

To whom is the authorship of the Book of Acts attribute?

Hi Jaumel, this has probably been answered already, but if not, it's Luke.

We are all to follow the Example of our Savior, Jesus.

Not all are Evangelists. Jesus did not go out into the world, rather He gave the Gospel to His own Tribe, His own people.

All of us are called to be witnesses and apologists however, both of what we know and what we have experienced of God, His Kingdom, the Bible, the faith, and of our lives as Christians .. e.g. 1 Peter 3:15, just like the whole of Israel was called by God to be His witnesses in the OT .. e.g. Isaiah 43:10.

I know Jesus told us that He came for the lost sheep of Israel alone, yet He still traveled into the Nations and ministered to (i.e. taught and healed) the people there as well. On top of that, He not only sent the Twelve Apostles out on missionary journeys, He also sent the Seventy, IOW, all of His other disciples.

Yes, we are to win others by our very being.......

What does it mean to, "win others by our very being", and how do we do that?

Thanks

~Deut

Romans 10​

17 Faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.​

.

 

[Guojing]

Have you tried to find out why? In fact, every genuinely Christian church should be *overly obsessed* with the Great Commission. And if you are a Christian, so should you.

I suppose you will not urge Christians to come together to build an ark, even though God commanded Noah to do so in Genesis 6:14? Why not when God the Father said it.

If the clear answer is no way, then God the Son commanded this 11 disciples to preach the same gospel he preached in the gospel of Matthew , which he specifically excluded the Gentiles from. In Matthew, we get commandments by the Lord Jesus to his 12 disciples like in Matt 10:5

"These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not"

And in Acts, after Jesus gave the so called "Great Commission", Peter understood that aspect completely, that was why he remarked to Cornelius the following in Acts 10

28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

Question: From this statement by Peter, did he really believed that the GC was for the whole world? What did Jesus commanded to them, in Matthew, regarding preaching to the Gentiles?

Peter had never thought in his life of going to the Gentiles, which only demonstrates that the Great Commission given to them (the Twelve) does not include the Gentile people. For if Jesus intended that they should make disciples among the Gentiles, Peter would have known it and would have not said to Cornelius and family, “You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with or visit a Gentile.”

The special revelation that Peter saw made him to say, “So when I was sent for, I came without raising any objection.” Had not God given him this vision he would have objected going to a Gentile family, which again demonstrates that the Great Commission, as clear as it was to the disciples, did not include the command to go to the Gentiles.

Had Jesus intended that they should go to the Gentiles, Peter would not need to say in Acts 10:34,35, “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right.” He does not need to say that if in the first place they were commanded to go to the Gentiles. But as it is, and as Peter and company understood it, the Great Commission was not including the Gentiles.

Some of us Gentiles try to "spritualize" the GC by saying, "Oh Jerusalem means our home country!" That is fine, but at least recognize that that version is not the one that is understood by the 12 disciples in the Gospels and Acts.

After you realized all these things, its easier to understand better why there are some Christians who view the GC as a commandment for Jews to preach to Jews.

As for that one off meeting between Peter and Cornelius, I believe the real objective of the Holy Spirit in arranging that is so that Peter could defend Paul in the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15 and mentioned again in Galatians 2, to protect Paul's gospel to the Gentiles.

The love message of God is indeed for the whole world but let me suggest that for us, Gentile Christians, we should not use the lens of the GC to view that. Rather for us Gentiles in the church, we should follow Paul's message of reconciliation explained in 2 Cor 5:11-21.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I suppose you will not urge Christians to come together to build an ark, even though God commanded Noah to do so in Genesis 6:14? Why not when God the Father said it.

The Ark was built for a very specific purpose, which is no longer relevant.

If the clear answer is no way, then God the Son commanded this 11 disciples to preach the same gospel he preached in the gospel of Matthew , which he specifically excluded the Gentiles from. In Matthew, we get commandments by the Lord Jesus to his 12 disciples like in Matt 10:5

Had you continued reading to the end of Matthew, you would not have made this VERY SERIOUS ERROR.

MATTHEW 28
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Question: From this statement by Peter, did he really believed that the GC was for the whole world? What did Jesus commanded to them, in Matthew, regarding preaching to the Gentiles?

Peter was a strict practising Jew who needed to learn the lesson that the Gospel was for all humanity. That is why he was shown that vision, and then sent to the house of Cornelius. Later on he realized that the Gentiles were to be a part of the Church.

ACTS 15
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Had Jesus intended that they should go to the Gentiles, Peter would not need to say in Acts 10:34,35, “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right.”

Again, you are in SERIOUS ERROR. Peter simply failed to believe and accept what God had already told the apostles before Pentecost as recorded in all the Gospels, as well as Acts.

But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. (Acts 1:8)

Peter had to be seriously persuaded by God to see the truth.

After you realized all these things, its easier to understand better why there are some Christians who view the GC as a commandment for Jews to preach to Jews.

And as you can see, that is TOTAL NONSENSE.

Rather for us Gentiles in the church, we should follow Paul's message of reconciliation explained in 2 Cor 5:11-21.

Take some time to study the life, epistles, and missionary journeys of the apostle Paul. He is the perfect example of taking the Gospel to both Jews and Gentiles. And the ministry of reconciliation begins by preaching the true Gospel.

 

[cv5]

Some arguments why

1. The term "Great Commission" was never in the Bible, and Bible translators only added that in the heading.
2. Matthew's version, the most popular one, had Jesus instructing them to teach others to follow "everything" he has taught them, which if you read the entire Gospel of Matthew, had instructions which are clearly incompatible with Paul's Gospel. "Sell all you have'. 'do not go into the Gentiles' 'I was only sent to the lost sheep of Israel', 'Follow what the Pharisees instruct you as they sat on Moses's seat' etc.
3. John's version had an instruction that only the Roman Catholic church practiced, 20:23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.” No Protestant church that I know of practice this.
4. Mark's version said you must believe AND be baptized to be saved, safe to say, not many churches follow the latter. Furthermore, no church would tell their Gentile believers to pick up serpents as a sign now.
5. Luke's version say you must start from Jerusalem, obviously from what Paul said in Romans 9-11, that avenue is now closed since the vast majority of the Jews rejected the gospel.

What do the rest of you think?

I think that you need to sit at the feet of the best biblical scholars for 5-10 years and sort out these issues.

As for the Great Commission....it has been clearly defined in Acts.

 

[cv5]

I suppose you will not urge Christians to come together to build an ark, even though God commanded Noah to do so in Genesis 6:14? Why not when God the Father said it.

If the clear answer is no way, then God the Son commanded this 11 disciples to preach the same gospel he preached in the gospel of Matthew , which he specifically excluded the Gentiles from. In Matthew, we get commandments by the Lord Jesus to his 12 disciples like in Matt 10:5

"These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not"

And in Acts, after Jesus gave the so called "Great Commission", Peter understood that aspect completely, that was why he remarked to Cornelius the following in Acts 10

28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

Question: From this statement by Peter, did he really believed that the GC was for the whole world? What did Jesus commanded to them, in Matthew, regarding preaching to the Gentiles?

Peter had never thought in his life of going to the Gentiles, which only demonstrates that the Great Commission given to them (the Twelve) does not include the Gentile people. For if Jesus intended that they should maActs.you are ciples among the Gentiles, Peter would have known it and would have not said to Cornelius and family, “You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with or visit a Gentile.”

The special revelation that Peter saw made him to say, “So when I was sent for, I came without raising any objection.” Had not God given him this vision he would have objected going to a Gentile family, which again demonstrates that the Great Commission, as clear as it was to the disciples, did not include the command to go to the Gentiles.

Had Jesus intended that they should go to the Gentiles, Peter would not need to say in Acts 10:34,35, “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right.” He does not need to say that if in the first place they were commanded to go to the Gentiles. But as it is, and as Peter and company understood it, the Great Commission was not including the Gentiles.

Some of us Gentiles try to "spritualize" the GC by saying, "Oh Jerusalem means our home country!" That is fine, but at least recognize that that version is not the one that is understood by the 12 disciples in the Gospels and Acts.

After you realized all these things, its easier to understand better why there are some Christians who view the GC as a commandment for Jews to preach to Jews.

As for that one off meeting between Peter and Cornelius, I believe the real objective of the Holy Spirit in arranging that is so that Peter could defend Paul in the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15 and mentioned again in Galatians 2, to protect Paul's gospel to the Gentiles.

The love message of God is indeed for the whole world but let me suggest that for us, Gentile Christians, we should not use the lens of the GC to view that. Rather for us Gentiles in the church, we should follow Paul's message of reconciliation explained in 2 Cor 5:11-21.

You are definitely in error. The pre-resurrection preaching was to Israel alone, which was a proclaiming of the arrival of their King per prophecy. This was rejected per prophecy.

 

[cv5]

To whom is thesuthorship of the Book of Acts attribute?


We are all to follow the Example of our Savior, Jesus.

Not all are Evangelists. Jesus did not go out into the world, rather He gave the Gosple to His own Tribe, His own peoplee.

Yes, we are to win others by our very being, but not all are evangelists, and to expect this of ALL is a ridiculous notion while each peron is given his speicial abilities to serve God.

Do not teach others they muist be evangelist if God has not told them to be so.

IMO all Christians evangelize one way or another eventually. Really you find it impossible to keep silent. I know I can't.

 

[Guojing]

The Ark was built for a very specific purpose, which is no longer relevant.


Had you continued reading to the end of Matthew, you would not have made this VERY SERIOUS ERROR.

MATTHEW 28
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

One point I would like to raise where the Bible translates the Greek into this term "all nations". May I suggest that the meaning is not exactly the same when we understood it in English.

Let me give you an example from Luke 2:1 KJV

And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.

Young's version goes

And it came to pass in those days, there went forth a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world be enrolled

I am presenting a view that when we read "all the nations" in the Matthew version of the GC, it may not mean exactly what we think it means in the English. It could point towards "all the known Jews in the Roman Empire".

Of course, you could be correct, I am not denying that possibility. But you are saying Peter is misled, and I am saying there could be another possible explanation, that every Jew at that time have a different idea from you about what preaching to "all nations" really meant.

 

[Guojing]

You are definitely in error. The pre-resurrection preaching was to Israel alone, which was a proclaiming of the arrival of their King per prophecy. This was rejected per prophecy.

I don't quite understand your point. It is true that the Jews have rejected Jesus as their Messiah in the 4 Gospels, and they continue to reject him in Acts. As Paul said in Romans 9-11, this means that all Gentiles can now be included in the salvation plan, independent of the Jews.

But it does not mean that the GC instructions carry over to the Gentile church. If you view it similarly to Noah's ark, the GC was given for the disciples to reach out to their fellow Jews, but since the Jews rejected their message, the GC is no longer relevant, just like the ark is no longer relevant for us today, even though we could learn lessons from it.

 

[Guojing]

Had you continued reading to the end of Matthew, you would not have made this VERY SERIOUS ERROR.

MATTHEW 28
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Another example of how terms like "all nations", "all the world" etc are understood in the Greek language. Paul said in Colossians 1:5-6 King James Version (KJV)

5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:

Here Paul is claiming that "all the world" has heard the gospel. Surely he cannot literally mean everyone on Earth, since places in Asia, Africa and America have not been explored yet during his lifetime.

 

[cv5]

Another example of how terms like "all nations", "all the world" etc are understood in the Greek language. Paul said in Colossians 1:5-6 King James Version (KJV)

5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:

Here Paul is claiming that "all the world" has heard the gospel. Surely he cannot literally mean everyone on Earth, since places in Asia, Africa and America have not been explored yet during his lifetime.

The rest of "all the world" is your job.

 

[pottersclay]

Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death

when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son. He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

 

[JaumeJ]

I did not know it was certain who penned the Book of the Acts of the Apostles. I had heard it is Paul and I have heard it is Luke, but never either with certainty from the source.

 

[Ignorun]

Some arguments why

1. The term "Great Commission" was never in the Bible, and Bible translators only added that in the heading.
2. Matthew's version, the most popular one, had Jesus instructing them to teach others to follow "everything" he has taught them, which if you read the entire Gospel of Matthew, had instructions which are clearly incompatible with Paul's Gospel. "Sell all you have'. 'do not go into the Gentiles' 'I was only sent to the lost sheep of Israel', 'Follow what the Pharisees instruct you as they sat on Moses's seat' etc.
3. John's version had an instruction that only the Roman Catholic church practiced, 20:23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.” No Protestant church that I know of practice this.
4. Mark's version said you must believe AND be baptized to be saved, safe to say, not many churches follow the latter. Furthermore, no church would tell their Gentile believers to pick up serpents as a sign now.
5. Luke's version say you must start from Jerusalem, obviously from what Paul said in Romans 9-11, that avenue is now closed since the vast majority of the Jews rejected the gospel.

What do the rest of you think?

#1 "Great Commission never in the bible..." True. Neither were chapters and verses: bible reading and study aids. Jesus sent/commissioned his apostles out to preach the gospel. They are official witnesses of Jesus' baptism, miracles, and His resurrection. Read Acts 1.20-26. No others were given that direct assignment from Jesus, aside from Paul. No, I am not suggesting we are not teachers, lights to the lost, but the apostles were the first to take the gospel before it was ever written to the lost.
#2 The GC is great in comparison to the Limited Commission, which you reference. The message of Jesus disciples "The kingdom of heaven at hand" and that to the Jews. The GC includes "teach them to all that commanded you." Yes, you point that out. But remember the apostles would be guided by the Holy Spirit. Take the command of Jesus "Wash one another's feet." What's the letter command? What it says. But the command is not that, it is actually, serve, love one another. You refer to Matthew 23, they sit in Moses seat. Well, not literally. But the scribes and Pharisees did teach the law of Moses. As for us, not under the law of Moses.
#3 Remember, only God can forgive sins. But the forgiveness from the apostles is not them doing the forgiveness, it's God. People get forgiveness when they hear and follow the gospel. In that sense the apostles could be said to be forgiving. It's through the gospel they preached that forgiveness would be given to those who obeyed the gospel.
#4 Yes, Mark records Jesus' command, He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved...believeth not damned. If you believe that is the truth, you need to follow it. Lots of people follow it. Remember, even if the whole world were to deny the existence of God, doesn't mean there isn't One. Don't be concerned with what protestants or others are doing or not doing. You can read it and see it for yourself. Truth is powerful. Miracles? The ability to perform miracles was limited. It was first century. Extra ordinary things happen today, God remains Almighty. He hears my prayers. He answered them far above and beyond than what I ever thought. Not materially. Better than that. Notice the word "signs". What is that? The gospel was a new message. Was it from God? Signs would indicate it was. See John 3.1-2. People understood that the message was from God by the signs.
#5 They did go from Jerusalem and preach. The apostles did. Read Acts. Began in Jerusalem.
You have the gospel in your hands. Do you HAVE to go to foreign lands and teach it? No. But you should live it. You should teach it to others. Be a light unto the lost.

 

[Guojing]

Thanks for taking the time to comment, here are my comments to your points in red.

#1 No others were given that direct assignment from Jesus, aside from Paul.

From this, are you supporting my point that the GC is irrelevant to present Christians in the church? By the way, Paul was given a totally different set of instructions that has nothing to do with the GC. He is to reach out to the Gentiles with a different message, the Gospel of Grace.

#2 You refer to Matthew 23, they sit in Moses seat. Well, not literally. But the scribes and Pharisees did teach the law of Moses. As for us, not under the law of Moses.

Only until Paul was commissioned by the ascended Christ, after the Jews rejected the GC thru the stoning of Stephen, then we get the "secret mystery" that was revealed to Paul, that we are not under the Law.

My point is that, once the mystery of the Church, comprising of Jews and Gentiles under equality, was revealed after the Jews rejected the GC, why is the church then subjected to the GC again?

#3 Remember, only God can forgive sins. But the forgiveness from the apostles is not them doing the forgiveness, it's God. People get forgiveness when they hear and follow the gospel. In that sense the apostles could be said to be forgiving. It's through the gospel they preached that forgiveness would be given to those who obeyed the gospel.

I think the Roman Catholics would disagree with this, like I said they are the only ones practicing that unique instruction in John's version of the GC. Again my point is that, if one were to elevate the GC to a special place in the church, at least be consistent and recognize that the GC is not just the version found in Matthew.

In that sense, its like following the Law. If Gentiles want to follow the Law, they have to follow EVERYTHING in the Law, and not just pick the ones they like, and drop the ones they don't.

#4 Yes, Mark records Jesus' command, He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved...believeth not damned. If you believe that is the truth, you need to follow it. Lots of people follow it.

Few people now preach that salvation is not just believing, you are only saved after you commit yourself to water baptism, for the remission of sins. Does this mean they also do not believe in the GC anymore?

#5 They did go from Jerusalem and preach. The apostles did. Read Acts. Began in Jerusalem.

But Luke's version say you have to start from Jerusalem. If you believe that the GC also applies to the church, why is this beginning no longer followed?

.

 

[Ignorun]

Thanks for taking the time to comment, here are my comments to your points in red.

Guojing, I believe in ONE Gospel. I don't believe in most of what I skimmed through in your response. What the bible teaches and what you say it teaches are separated by a great gulf. I ain't going to try to bridge it. You have my answers to your post.

 

[JaumeJ]

The Gospel was never written for the lost? Abraham received first the Gospel.
It is true there were no chapters and verse in the original writings; I speak of the Old Testament.
There were not even punctuation marks nor spaces between words.
Before chapter and verse it suited most when a man of God would simply say "well did the prophet say2 and continue, sometimes mentioning which prophet but not always.
Chapter and verse is ver good for thos who have never read the Word, for those who have not read all of the Word, and for those who have read some of the Word believe that suffices, and for many it does.
For a long time people either read all of th writings or heard them read for them , but chapter and verse numbers were not used nor necessary.

 

[JaumeJ]

You are definitely in error. The pre-resurrection preaching was to Israel alone, which was a proclaiming of the arrival of their King per prophecy. This was rejected per prophecy.

I know the feeling and I do the same. Someone will come to the Subject, and all of a sudden the dam breaks and all kinds of joyous sharing occurs.