Not By Works

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safswan

Active member
Jan 19, 2019
151
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Same could be said of you my friend

Instead of attacking with strawmen which can be used against you also, how about some meat
That,I only use some of Paul's writing to arrive at my understanding and interpret away the writings of James,could only be said by one who was dishonest.
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
3,612
2,631
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That,I only use some of Paul's writing to arrive at my understanding and interpret away the writings of James,could only be said by one who was dishonest.
Pot meet kettle.

Arent you doing the exact same but in reverse? Got your understanding from James and interpret away the writings of Paul?

Well there ya go. How about we harmonize and take a look at context?
 

safswan

Active member
Jan 19, 2019
151
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28
I do accept it, and the context of what he said....which is NOT that a man is justified before God by works.......SHOW ME your faith is the context and the comparison between a mere belief in God and actual saving faith.......James is not teaching that works justify a man before GOD....

For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works

Therefore we concluded that a man is justified by faith without the deeds/works of the law.

"A man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ; we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ." Paul, then, faith is the synthesis of Christ's gift and man's effort

Your conclusions and incessant use of James out of context to peddle a works based salvation/justification before God is false........end of story........get honest and engage the actual context of the verses you cite or do not address me!
The context of James is simple and it is not the context you claim.Nothing in the passage supports your opinion of the context.The example given by James shows clearly that he is not referring to any distinction between your inventions "mere belief" and "saving faith". He uses Abraham as the example and his faith was real as this was acknowledged by God.Yet still he said:

"Was not Abraham our father justified by works,"

Belief :confidence, trust, certainty, credence, acceptance,faith, conviction, principle, creed, idea
antonym: distrust
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
That is quite a big accusation to make.

Can you back this claim up?

Your accusation is normally a broad brush statement made by those who believe we are saved by grace thorough faith and not works.

Normally as "So you can sin all you want and be saved"

But you have stated that person's on this thread have said they can.

You need to back this up Fran.
She can slander me, I care not, it is actually good because it shows how offensive the message of grace is that they have to distort it to make it sound like it is promoting evil.

Paul had something very sharp to say about people who use this distorted logic that we preach evil so that good may come.

Romans 3:8

8Why not say, as some slanderously claim that we say, “Let us do evil that good may result?” Their condemnation is deserved!
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,877
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James is teaching no such thing.There is a meaning for justify/justification which has nothing to do with proving anything to others.This is an invention to support a false teaching.Justification is only needed before God and James states clearly that this is an issue of salvation not an issue of proving anything before men.Read it and accept rather than attempting to explain it away:

"What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?"

Can faith alone save?
James is saying that if you faith it will show up in works.
If you do not have works then you do not have faith.

Does God need to see our works to see we have faith?

After all he knows our hearts, so he knows whether we are genuine or not.

Acts 16:29-33
29 Then he called for a light, ran in, and fell down trembling before Paul and Silas. 30 And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” 32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized.

Romans 4:5-8

David Celebrates the Same Truth
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Romans 4:3-4
3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

Look at what James was adressing.

Beware of Personal Favoritism

This was happening.

He is not taking about works that saves us but works that show we are saved.
If you have genuine faith it will show up, if not then you profess a dead faith, a mere profession and that's all.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
If you have genuine faith it will show up, if not then you profess a dead faith, a mere profession and that's all.
The addition of 'qualifiers' that are completely foreign to Scripture, and the language, such as "genuine faith" or "'really' and/or 'truly' believe".

None of the above words either need or demand any such as these 'lingual' additions (or 'clarifications') , which are subtle attempts to 'read theology' into the actual words and texts, IMO.

There are indeed more straw men I could list, but these should suffice to show the point.
 

safswan

Active member
Jan 19, 2019
151
46
28
No, he didn't, and as a matter of fact he taught the exact opposite of the drivel you peddle by using James out of context.......
I am not the one interpreting James and claiming:

He is saying works justify us before men..
He is speaking about professors of faith only...
He is referring to mere belief vs saving faith...

I am merely sticking to his plain words:

"What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?"

" Was not Abraham our father justified by works,.."

Notice he is speaking of Abraham here not some unknown,mere professor of faith.
You would be better off taking Luther's position in declaring James an epistle of straw.
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
11,643
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I am not the one interpreting James and claiming:

He is saying works justify us before men..
He is speaking about professors of faith only...
He is referring to mere belief vs saving faith...

I am merely sticking to his plain words:

"What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?"

" Was not Abraham our father justified by works,.."

Notice he is speaking of Abraham here not some unknown,mere professor of faith.
You would be better off taking Luther's position in declaring James an epistle of straw.
my Bible must be defective. it has a lot more letters and Gospels in it, other than James....

but, in some ones ( wrong ) opinion, James is all their is to the N.T.
'
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,877
4,332
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The addition of 'qualifiers' that are completely foreign to Scripture, and the language, such as "genuine faith" or "'really' and/or 'truly' believe".

None of the above words either need or demand any such as these 'lingual' additions (or 'clarifications') , which are subtle attempts to 'read theology' into the actual words and texts, IMO.

There are indeed more straw men I could list, but these should suffice to show the point.
Sorry sis but you have lost me.
 

Argueless

Active member
Oct 21, 2018
658
161
43
Good, I am glad.

You are a smart woman think!! Does dead mean non existent .....NO!!!

It did exist but now it is inoperative, not being manifested, not being shown to a lost and dying world

Okay......

This is saving faith, the faith that saves us from sin and gives eternal life (eternal life meaning we partake of God's divine nature)

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

This saving faith comes from hearing the true full Gospel, which most people do not btw....

Jesus is the object of our belief/faith because of the work He accomplished for us on the cross and His Resurrection

This belief and saving faith is when we come to Him empty of our own self effort to gain salvation, knowing that it is work His only that saves and it is a complete

By exerting this faith we are Born Again....we are regenerated, redeemed and justified eternally because we have received His eternal life

The church is still one of oppression and so they teach the believer WILL be good and do good works and persevere. Not really under grace then?

So the free gift is not so free anymore is it, now we have to do our part or we are not really saved

Have we become automatons? Do His children not get lost....we still have the flesh, the world and Satan to contend with everyday.

The Lordship Salvation doctrine stemming from our friend from the Reformation does not trust Grace really, it is just more external law and obedience

Yet I say to you, abiding is an internal positional place in the Love and Grace of God, we are hid in Him, in Him we do not need external oppressive saying you WILL be good. It is instead we SHOULD do good works, we not automatons.

James is very clear we will be judge by the Law of Liberty. What does that mean, we have choices to make on this earth but once we are born again our salvation is secure.

Yet not everyone knows how to abide, and they get lost and they mess up, and then the Christians say well they were never a Christian, they did not have a real relationship with God and were not saved, it was just mental assent.

Why did Paul write what He did to Corinth if everyone WILL be obedient.

Soon as you say will, you have the perfect formula for judgement .....sounds like the modern day church, the big divide between law keeping and licentious because they have not understood Grace

From James' point of view he is writing to believers therefore he is not addressing false faith, he is however addressing faith that is not being made manifest, inoperative.

Most people are operating under the law still and do not really know it.:(
...It is God’s will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; that each of you should learn to control his own body in a way that is holy and honorable, not in passionate lust like the heathen, who do not know God; and that in this matter NO ONE SHOULD WRONG HIS BROTHER or take advantage of him. THE LORD WILL PUNISH MEN FOR ALL SUCH SIN, as we have already told you and WARNED YOU. For GOD DID NOT CALL US TO BE IMPURE, but to LIVE A HOLY LIFE. Therefore, he who rejects this instruction DOES NOT REJECT MAN BUT GOD, who gives you his Holy Spirit. 1 Thessalonians 4:3-8
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,877
4,332
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...It is God’s will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; that each of you should learn to control his own body in a way that is holy and honorable, not in passionate lust like the heathen, who do not know God; and that in this matter NO ONE SHOULD WRONG HIS BROTHER or take advantage of him. THE LORD WILL PUNISH MEN FOR ALL SUCH SIN, as we have already told you and WARNED YOU. For GOD DID NOT CALL US TO BE IMPURE, but to LIVE A HOLY LIFE. Therefore, he who rejects this instruction DOES NOT REJECT MAN BUT GOD, who gives you his Holy Spirit. 1 Thessalonians 4:3-8
And what point are you trying to make?

Explain your thoughts please.

Ta
 

Argueless

Active member
Oct 21, 2018
658
161
43
Here's another out of context (as you call it) words of Jesus which I am sure will either be rejected or twisted by OSAS group

...“As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. There is a judge for the one who REJECTS ME and DOES NOT ACCEPT MY WORDS; that very word which I spoke WILL CONDEMN HIM AT THE LAST DAY. For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it. I KNOW THAT HIS COMMAND LEADS TO ETERNAL LIFE. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.” John 12:47-50

And here's for RUNNING AHEAD without the BODY OF CHRIST towards what OSAS group call your PERSONAL SALVATION.

Jesus died on the cross so that the Holy Spirit can be in us to empower and enable us to meet the righteous REQUIREMENTS of the law.

...For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the RIGHTEOUS REQUIREMENTS of the law might be FULLY MET IN US, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit. Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on WHAT THE SPIRIT DESIRES. The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; the sinful mind is hostile to God. IT DOES NOT SUBMIT TO GOD'S LAW, NOR CAN IT DO SO. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God. Romans 8:3-8

If someone is being led by the Spirit, he will not say that works done by those who teaches obedience to God have no bearing unto salvation and that they are just filthy rags.

It is blasphemy to the Holy Spirit to call the works He is doing in a believer, the little ones who believe in Him, as filthy rags and has no bearing unto salvation.

Those who teach obedience to God are led by the Spirit since no one without the Spirit will teach obedience to God because there is no Holy Spirit in them that is leading them to obey, and teach obedience to God, to other people.

Did the Lord Jesus Christ, the prophets, apostles, disciples and all the Holy men of God obey and teach obedience to God? YES

...If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? Hebrews 10:26-29

DO NOT just listen and CLAIM and then BOAST THAT you are SAVED and others are not. Jesus will save His BODY who are eagerly awaiting a Savior from heaven. It is not a PERSONAL SALVATION but He will SAVE HIS BODY which is the Church.(Ephesians 5:23)

So if you are not IN HIM because you have RUN AHEAD and claimed victory without the Body of Christ, THINK IT OVER.

...ANYONE WHO RUNS AHEAD and does not continue in the teaching of Christ DOES NOT HAVE GOD; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 1:1-11

...Not that I have already obtained all this, or have ALREADY BEEN MADE PERFECT, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and STRAINING TOWARD WHAT IS AHEAD, I press on TOWARD THE GOAL to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward IN CHRIST JESUS. All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point YOU THINK DIFFERENTLY, that too God will make clear to you. ONLY LET US LIVE UP TO WHAT WE HAVE ALREADY ATTAINED. Philippians 3:12-16

...These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. God had planned something better for us so that ONLY TOGETHER WITH US (A NEW CREATION ÌN CHRIST CREATED UNTO GOOD WORKS- Ephesians 2:10-22) would they be made perfect. Hebrews 11:39-40

ARE YOU IN THE BODY OF CHRIST? see Ephesians 5:23

...We know that we have come to know him IF WE OBEY his commands. The man who says, “I know him,” BUT DOES NOT DO WHAT HE COMMANDS IS A LIAR, and THE TRUTH IS NOT IN HIM. But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him MUST WALK as Jesus did. 1 John 2:3-6

Start WALKING and STOP TALKING.

...for the kingdom of God is NOT a matter of TALK but of POWER. 1 Corinthians 4:20
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,877
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Question: "How can you believe in salvation by faith alone when the only occurrence of ‘faith alone’ in the Bible (James 2:24) says that salvation is not by faith alone?"

Answer:
It is entirely true that the one verse in the Bible that contains the exact phrase “faith alone” seems to argue against salvation by faith alone. James 2:24 reads, “You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone” (ESV). However, rejecting the doctrine of salvation by faith alone based on this verse has two major problems. First, the context of James 2:24 is not arguing against the doctrine of salvation by faith alone. Second, the Bible does not need to contain the precise phrase “faith alone” in order to clearly teach salvation by faith alone.

James 2:14–26, as a whole, and especially verse 24, has been the subject of some confused interpretations. The passage definitely seems to cause serious problems for the “salvation by faith alone” concept. First, we need to clear up a misconception, namely, that James means the same thing by “justified” in James 2:24 that Paul means in Romans 3:28. Paul is using the word justified to mean “declared righteous by God.” Paul is speaking of God’s legal declaration of us as righteous as Christ’s righteousness is applied to our account. James is using the word justified to mean “being demonstrated and proved.”

The 2011 NIV provides an excellent rendering of James 2:24: “You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone” (emphasis added). Similarly, the NLT translation of James 2:24 reads, “So you see, we are shown to be right with God by what we do, not by faith alone” (emphasis added). The entire James 2:14–26 passage is about proving the genuineness of your faith by what you do. A genuine salvation experience by faith in Jesus Christ will inevitably result in good works (cf. Ephesians 2:10). The works are the demonstration and proof of faith (James 2:18). A faith without works is useless (James 2:20) and dead (James 2:17); in other words, it is not true faith at all. Salvation is by faith alone, but that faith will never be alone.

While James 2:24 is the only verse that contains the precise phrase “faith alone,” there are many other verses that do, in fact, teach salvation by faith alone. Any verse that ascribes salvation to faith/belief, with no other requirement mentioned, is a declaration that salvation is by faith alone. John 3:16declares that salvation is given to “whoever believes in Him.” Acts 16:31 proclaims, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved.” Ephesians 2:8 says, “For by grace you have been saved through faith.” See also Romans 3:28; 4:5; 5:1; Galatians 2:16; 3:24; Ephesians 1:13; and Philippians 3:9. Many other verses could be referenced in addition to these.

In summary, James 2:24 does not argue against salvation by faith alone. Rather, it argues against a salvation that is alone, a salvation devoid of good works and obedience to God’s Word. James’s point is that we demonstrate our faith by what we do (James 2:18). Regardless of the absence of the precise phrase “faith alone,” the New Testament definitely teaches that salvation is the product of God’s grace in response to our faith. “Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? . . . On that of faith” (Romans 3:27). There is no other requirement. (Got questions material)
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
...It is God’s will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; that each of you should learn to control his own body in a way that is holy and honorable, not in passionate lust like the heathen, who do not know God; and that in this matter NO ONE SHOULD WRONG HIS BROTHER or take advantage of him. THE LORD WILL PUNISH MEN FOR ALL SUCH SIN, as we have already told you and WARNED YOU. For GOD DID NOT CALL US TO BE IMPURE, but to LIVE A HOLY LIFE. Therefore, he who rejects this instruction DOES NOT REJECT MAN BUT GOD, who gives you his Holy Spirit. 1 Thessalonians 4:3-8
We are positionally sanctified in Christ. Amen

All believers are classified as “the saints” (Act 20:32; 1 Cor. 1:2; 6:11; Heb. 10:10, 14; Jude 1).

Therefore, sainthood or sanctification, is not an attainment, it is the state into which God, in grace, calls sinful men when they are born again, and in which they begin their course as Christians (Col. 3:12; Heb. 3:1).

The greatest incentive for holy living/sanctification/ demonstrating outwardly what God has proclaimed in Heaven is our position before and in God.

You should really preach on that instead.:)
 
Dec 12, 2013
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The context of James is simple and it is not the context you claim.Nothing in the passage supports your opinion of the context.The example given by James shows clearly that he is not referring to any distinction between your inventions "mere belief" and "saving faith". He uses Abraham as the example and his faith was real as this was acknowledged by God.Yet still he said:

"Was not Abraham our father justified by works,"

Belief :confidence, trust, certainty, credence, acceptance,faith, conviction, principle, creed, idea
antonym: distrust
You must be dense......or just like to reject context..........probably both!
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
Moreover, the saints have a “perfect” status in God’s presence (Heb. 11:40; 12:23).

We can approach Him with the full acceptance gained through the death of Christ (Heb. 10:19-22).

Charles Wesley wrote eloquently:

No condemnation now I dread:
Jesus, and all in Him, is mine!
Alive in Him, my living Head,
And clothed in righteousness divine,
Bold I approach the eternal throng,
And claim the crown, through Christ my own.

Every believer is sanctified in Christ Jesus (1 Cor. 1:2; cp. Heb. 10:10), therefore the New Testament calls all believers “saints,” hagioi.
We are the “sanctified” or “holy ones.”

In Hebrews 10:10 the believer is placed in a permanent and continuous state of salvation.

.abideinchrist.com
 

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
May 3, 2017
3,708
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Moreover, the saints have a “perfect” status in God’s presence (Heb. 11:40; 12:23).

We can approach Him with the full acceptance gained through the death of Christ (Heb. 10:19-22).

Charles Wesley wrote eloquently:

No condemnation now I dread:
Jesus, and all in Him, is mine!
Alive in Him, my living Head,
And clothed in righteousness divine,
Bold I approach the eternal throng,
And claim the crown, through Christ my own.

Every believer is sanctified in Christ Jesus (1 Cor. 1:2; cp. Heb. 10:10), therefore the New Testament calls all believers “saints,” hagioi.
We are the “sanctified” or “holy ones.”

In Hebrews 10:10 the believer is placed in a permanent and continuous state of salvation.

.abideinchrist.com
I just finished reading Hebrews today , my eyes were open to what the New Covenant means , and my mind at rest knowing who the Author was writing to...xox...
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
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I am not the one interpreting James and claiming:

He is saying works justify us before men..
He is speaking about professors of faith only...
He is referring to mere belief vs saving faith...

I am merely sticking to his plain words:

"What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?"

" Was not Abraham our father justified by works,.."

Notice he is speaking of Abraham here not some unknown,mere professor of faith.
You would be better off taking Luther's position in declaring James an epistle of straw.
Wrong again......like normal......as long as you keep ignoring context you will continue to peddle lies and deceit.....

Paul -->Therefore, we conclude a man is JUSTIFIED by FAITH without the deeds/works of the law.....

For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,


You really do not know what you are talking about........you really should go back to Sunday school and get your facts straight before you play with the adults......
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
. First, we need to clear up a misconception, namely, that James means the same thing by “justified” in James 2:24 that Paul means in Romans 3:28. Paul is using the word justified to mean “declared righteous by God.” Paul is speaking of God’s legal declaration of us as righteous as Christ’s righteousness is applied to our account. James is using the word justified to mean “being demonstrated and proved.”
Amen!!! Exactly!!

Works are profitable in this life as well as in the next (for rewards) faith needs to be made concrete in a real world in real time to be of any use.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,877
4,332
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Jesus died on the cross so that the Holy Spirit can be in us to empower and enable us to meet the righteous REQUIREMENTS of the law.
And there is me thinking that he died on the cross to forgive me of my sins.
The thing that separates us from God.
As he said on the cross "Father forgive them, they don't know what they are doing"

Jesus died on the cross to reconcile us to the Father.
He had to do so in order for the Holy Spirit to come to convict us of the greatest sin.

John 16:8-11
8 When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 about sin, because people do not believe in me; 10 about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11 and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned

The sin of unbelief in Jesus.

John 14:26
26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.