End time signs in Amillennialism?

[garee]

Ahemm!! Not to be nit-picky but I would like to point out oneONE TRIBE is missing! The tribe of Dan!

instead we got one tribe split to two, to match the original number!

I dont know why DAN is missing, and I probably will never know. But if anyone has a clue as to why its like that, I would GREATLY appreciate it!

One theory i've been thinking about with the brethren is that possibly the antichrist comes from the tribe of Dan, because in the OT its often connected to war and negative things.
BUT THATS NOTHING BUT A WILD THEORY!

I would offer. Dan as a tribe is used to represent gates of the spiritual house of God made up of many lively stones Dan missing in that parable (Genesis 49:16-18)

The word Dan means judge.

Genesis 49:16-17 King James Version (KJV) Dan shall judge his people, as one of the tribes of Israel. Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward.

It would seem to represent judgment as those who will not enter the new heavens and earth. That written law that kills will not be part of the new order. But not one Jot or title will be removed unto the last day

They represented by Dan would be those who did not hear the gospel, the the deaf adder, the father of lies blinding their minds and like a adder stopping up its hearing . they fall back in judgment or fall backward. It is used to represent the same. Those who fall from grace .Those who did not become part of the bride of Christ the heavenly city. .

Twelve was the word metaphor that was needed to represent the authority of God in whatever is in view.

That above represents all of the old testament saints on the other side of the first century reformation. On this side to represent all the saints until the end of time. Judas is left out for the use of twelve. The 12 a remnant of all apostles represent those sent out of the spiritual house of God they represent the foundation walls of the same spiritual house of God, the church, his eternal wife..

We can see the same principle that was used with Dan is used with Judas who fell back at the hearing of the voice of God showing he was under judgment. Falling back in judgement is used many time that way.

John 18:5-7 King James Version (KJV) They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground. Then asked he them again, Whom seek ye? And they said, Jesus of Nazareth.

 

[garee]

True

But what im referring to when using antichrist is the man of sin mentioned in 2 thess 2:4

There were many antichrist already there .A good example of one working is shown with Peter. get behind me Satan) he was forgiven of his blasphemy against the Son of man Jesus he denied Christ in unbelief over and over and over .it is what the antichrist look like. Satan would love to make it about flesh wrestling against flesh and blood .Its how he puts a face on.

Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. Mathew 16:22-23

The thing I have noticed is the general idea of what constitutes the true holy place. Some would make it of here the temporal as that seen . and not the unseen place of faith reserved for our father not seen. The earthly Jerusalem is simply a shadow that needs to be defined by It is how we what the bible calls mix faith in Hebrew 4. and therefore do enter his rest, not hardening our hearts as he does work in us with us to both will and perform His good pleasure as a imputed righteousness .

While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal. 2 Corinthians 4: 18.

 

[Ahwatukee]

STRONGS NT 59: ἀγοράζω

ἀγοράζω; (imperfect ἠγόραζον; future ἀγοράσω); 1 aorist ἠγόρασα; passive, perfect participle ἠγορασμένος; 1 aorist ἠγοράσθην; (ἀγορά);
1. to frequent the marketplace.
2. to buy (properly, in the marketplace) (Aristophanes, Xenophon, others); used


"to frequent the marketplace"

Seems to me that the buying and selling is literal! The reason I mention this is because I have seen some commentators state that its talking about being able to be a deacon in a church or "do business" within the church, SO TO SPEAK. Or "buy the truth sell it not" from proverbs.

But I believe that interpretation to be an UNNATURAL reading of the text and a LOGICAL LEAP! Who would have understood it that way???

Btw I am still waiting an ANSWER to this question: How can the amills say satan is bound now from deceiving the nations (rev 20) while teachin revelation 12 is also speaking of the current time in WHICH it states satan is deceiving teh nations?

Good day my friend!

I would also agree in that, the reference to "Buying and selling" as being in the literal sense. The context also bears this out, seeing that there is nothing that would lead the reader to an allegorical/spiritual or figurative meaning.

Furthermore, in Rev.1:19 John is told to write what he has seen, what is now and what will take place later. What John had seen is listed from Rev.1:1 thru 1:19, the "what is now" is represented by the letters to the seven churches, which also represents the entire church period. And the "what will take place later" is what will take place after the now, i.e. after the church period. That said, we are still currently living the "what is now" part of Revelation, i.e. the church period. Once the church is gathered as alluded to in Rev.4:1-2, then the "what will take place later" will begin. Therefore, everything written from Revelation chapter 4 thru 22 is still future.

Those end-time events which Preterists claim have already taken place, are yet future. I've never seen a more deceptive teaching then Amillennialism and Preterism.

 

[Hevosmies]

Good day my friend!

I would also agree in that, the reference to "Buying and selling" as being in the literal sense. The context also bears this out, seeing that there is nothing that would lead the reader to an allegorical/spiritual or figurative meaning.

Furthermore, in Rev.1:19 John is told to write what he has seen, what is now and what will take place later. What John had seen is listed from Rev.1:1 thru 1:19, the "what is now" is represented by the letters to the seven churches, which also represents the entire church period. And the "what will take place later" is what will take place after the now, i.e. after the church period. That said, we are still currently living the "what is now" part of Revelation, i.e. the church period. Once the church is gathered as alluded to in Rev.4:1-2, then the "what will take place later" will begin. Therefore, everything written from Revelation chapter 4 thru 22 is still future.

Those end-time events which Preterists claim have already taken place, are yet future. I've never seen a more deceptive teaching then Amillennialism and Preterism.

Ahwatukee can you send me a PM? I cant initiate a conversation but I can reply if someone sends to me!

I personally think there are some things amillennialism does well, like simplicity. I have sent an EMAIL to amill pastor asking the question of how can satan deceive and not deceive at the same times and im PATIENTLY waiting to have answer!

But I will say that I just CANT SEE a logical way to answer my question without absolutely twisting and wrecking the scriptures! But im a curious person, I really want to hear what do they got to say.
I have listened to a thousand podcasts on it and so far NOONE has adressed this concern of mine in their "common objections" its ODD! Has nobody thought of this before?

 

[Ahwatukee]

Ahwatukee can you send me a PM? I cant initiate a conversation but I can reply if someone sends to me!

I personally think there are some things amillennialism does well, like simplicity. I have sent an EMAIL to amill pastor asking the question of how can satan deceive and not deceive at the same times and im PATIENTLY waiting to have answer!

But I will say that I just CANT SEE a logical way to answer my question without absolutely twisting and wrecking the scriptures! But im a curious person, I really want to hear what do they got to say.
I have listened to a thousand podcasts on it and so far NOONE has adressed this concern of mine in their "common objections" its ODD! Has nobody thought of this before?

If are you are on-line then I can send you a message. But I don't see you out there.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Ahwatukee can you send me a PM? I cant initiate a conversation but I can reply if someone sends to me!

I personally think there are some things amillennialism does well, like simplicity. I have sent an EMAIL to amill pastor asking the question of how can satan deceive and not deceive at the same times and im PATIENTLY waiting to have answer!

But I will say that I just CANT SEE a logical way to answer my question without absolutely twisting and wrecking the scriptures! But im a curious person, I really want to hear what do they got to say.
I have listened to a thousand podcasts on it and so far NOONE has adressed this concern of mine in their "common objections" its ODD! Has nobody thought of this before?

If are you are on-line then I can send you a message. But I don't see you out there.

 

[Hevosmies]

Another thing that worries me is if we read the book of Revelation like the amills do: We end up with a system where we have to always go and ask Pastor X "what does this mean and that mean".

I just heard with my own ears and read with my own eyes that times, time and half a time DOESNT mean 1260 days as I had thought by just READING the book of Revelation, but rather that it means the ENTIRE TIME from ascension to second coming!

UNBELIEVABLE! Where is the precedent to such an interpretation? NO clue in the text whatsoever for it!

 

[Ahwatukee]

Another thing that worries me is if we read the book of Revelation like the amills do: We end up with a system where we have to always go and ask Pastor X "what does this mean and that mean".

I just heard with my own ears and read with my own eyes that times, time and half a time DOESNT mean 1260 days as I had thought by just READING the book of Revelation, but rather that it means the ENTIRE TIME from ascension to second coming!

UNBELIEVABLE! Where is the precedent to such an interpretation? NO clue in the text whatsoever for it!

When these people erroneously interpret end-time events, they have to distort a lot of scripture, ergo, "a time, times and half a time" means something other than 3 1/2 years. However, we know from scripture that, it this represents the last 3 1/2 years of the seven year period. And they distort much scripture in order to support their interpretation.

 

[garee]

Another thing that worries me is if we read the book of Revelation like the amills do: We end up with a system where we have to always go and ask Pastor X "what does this mean and that mean".

I just heard with my own ears and read with my own eyes that times, time and half a time DOESNT mean 1260 days as I had thought by just READING the book of Revelation, but rather that it means the ENTIRE TIME from ascension to second coming!

UNBELIEVABLE! Where is the precedent to such an interpretation? NO clue in the text whatsoever for it!

We start out with a system where we have to always go our promised comforter, teacher and guide who alone brings to our minds the things he has taught us. And if any growth he causes it.

When we are faced with "what does this mean and that mean". We understand it is he who loving commands us to divide the word of God as His way that we can seek His approval and not the approval of men . Men can offer how they hear but in the end the hearing must be between two walking together in agreement to one . He is the head.

If the language is signified as introduced in the first verse in the book of Revelation. Why would we not look as the signifiers or metaphors ? The temporal as that seen, to give us a vision of faith the unseen . Like for instance what the signified meaning of a literal chain that could not bind a lying spirit. What is it used to bind or loose Or what is a bottomless pit what does it signify .
it would seem it is the gospel that binds as a bottomless pit the "key" that unlocks the gates of hell

The parable found in Revelation 20 is filled with the things seen that need the 20/20 prescription 2 Corinthians 4:18 filled for another insight.

While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal. 2 Corinthians 4:18

 

[Hevosmies]

We start out with a system where we have to always go our promised comforter, teacher and guide who alone brings to our minds the things he has taught us. And if any growth he causes it.

When we are faced with "what does this mean and that mean". We understand it is he who loving commands us to divide the word of God as His way that we can seek His approval and not the approval of men . Men can offer how they hear but in the end the hearing must be between two walking together in agreement to one . He is the head.

If the language is signified as introduced in the first verse in the book of Revelation. Why would we not look as the signifiers or metaphors ? The temporal as that seen, to give us a vision of faith the unseen . Like for instance what the signified meaning of a literal chain that could not bind a lying spirit. What is it used to bind or loose Or what is a bottomless pit what does it signify .
it would seem it is the gospel that binds as a bottomless pit the "key" that unlocks the gates of hell

The parable found in Revelation 20 is filled with the things seen that need the 20/20 prescription 2 Corinthians 4:18 filled for another insight.

While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal. 2 Corinthians 4:18

2 corinthians 4:18 must be your favorite verse lol, you always quote it.

What leads you to suggest Revelation 20 is only a parable? I agree the book of revelation is symbolic, but its symbolic of a REALITY. For example: candlesticks is symbolic of...... church. we know this from the book itself.

Just like Revelation 20. Nobody is suggesting the devil is a literal dragon and a snake thats going to be bound with a metal chain somewhere. Atleast im not. But what i am suggesting is that being bound and sealed itno the bottomless pit symbolizes the devil being rendered ineffective so that he can no longer deceive teh nations.

 

[Ahwatukee]

2 corinthians 4:18 must be your favorite verse lol, you always quote it.

What leads you to suggest Revelation 20 is only a parable? I agree the book of revelation is symbolic, but its symbolic of a REALITY. For example: candlesticks is symbolic of...... church. we know this from the book itself.

Just like Revelation 20. Nobody is suggesting the devil is a literal dragon and a snake thats going to be bound with a metal chain somewhere. Atleast im not. But what i am suggesting is that being bound and sealed itno the bottomless pit symbolizes the devil being rendered ineffective so that he can no longer deceive teh nations.

Hello Hevosmies,

I will comment on this if I may. I know that you probably know and agree with this, so I'll post it for anyone else that might be reading.

First of all, the correct way to read the book of Revelation is that "if the literal plain sense makes good sense, then don't seek any other sense. Though the book of Revelation has symbolism in it, it should not all be read that way, only where a symbolic interpretation is obviously required. Whoever assumed that Rev.20 as being a parable is incorrect!

In Rev.20, we have that ancient serpent as representing the devil/Satan. So, we know that he is a literal being. Nothing figurative about that

We also have Satan being thrown into and bound in the Abyss for a literal thousand years, which is also a real place mentioned elsewhere in scripture. The Abyss is the same place that those demons collectively called "Legion" begged Jesus not to send them into (Luke 8:30). It is also the same place where that angel/beast is currently held prisoner and will be coming up out of in the middle of that seven year period (Rev.9:11, 11:7, 17:8). Therefore, it is a real place and there is no need to apply a figurative meaning to it.

The conclusion is that, when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, a literal mighty angel with a chain in his hand, whether spiritual or corporeal, Satan will be bound with it. And just as the Abyss required a key to be unlocked (Rev.9:1), the other angel will need that same key to lock it back up, as the Abyss will have remained open for the entire last 3 1/2 years.

It is when ignorant people say Satan, the Abyss, the thousand years and Satan's literal binding is figurative or a parable, that they distort the plain meaning. Even though it says that right there in front of them. And why do they do this? Because they abandoned the truth of God's word and adopted the false teachings of men.

 

[Journeyman]

If the beast comes out of the "bottomless pit", why does John say,

And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea Rev.13:1

Are the bottomless pit and the sea the same thing?

 

[garee]

Good day my friend!

I would also agree in that, the reference to "Buying and selling" as being in the literal sense. The context also bears this out, seeing that there is nothing that would lead the reader to an allegorical/spiritual or figurative meaning.

Furthermore, in Rev.1:19 John is told to write what he has seen, what is now and what will take place later. What John had seen is listed from Rev.1:1 thru 1:19, the "what is now" is represented by the letters to the seven churches, which also represents the entire church period. And the "what will take place later" is what will take place after the now, i.e. after the church period. That said, we are still currently living the "what is now" part of Revelation, i.e. the church period. Once the church is gathered as alluded to in Rev.4:1-2, then the "what will take place later" will begin. Therefore, everything written from Revelation chapter 4 thru 22 is still future.

Those end-time events which Preterists claim have already taken place, are yet future. I've never seen a more deceptive teaching then Amillennialism and Preterism.

The buying and selling has to do with spiritual truths. There is no need to think of as a secular idea of holding goods threatening to starve out a person. It not a embargo as a official ban .Its a spiritual issue

Its the mark of Cain and can be applied to Esau norther having any use for a God not seen they sold the spirutl truth .One got a cup of soup the other sold his soul by murdering his brother.

Not something that was developed by the god of technology thousands of years later. John knew what it was when God gave him his interpretation.

Proverbs 23:23 Buy the truth, and sell it not; also wisdom, and instruction, and understanding.

 

[garee]

If the beast comes out of the "bottomless pit", why does John say,

And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea Rev.13:1

Are the bottomless pit and the sea the same thing?

In that parable. The sea speaks of the judgment. The bottom less pit is a metaphor that signifies no end to be bound by chain. Chain represent the binding and loosening power of the gospel . the father of lies is loosed for a short season to bring his signs as lying wonders.

 

[Hevosmies]

If the beast comes out of the "bottomless pit", why does John say,

And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea Rev.13:1

Are the bottomless pit and the sea the same thing?

thats the first beast.

this is the second beast:

Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

 

[Journeyman]

In that parable. The sea speaks of the judgment. The bottom less pit is a metaphor that signifies no end to be bound by chain. Chain represent the binding and loosening power of the gospel . the father of lies is loosed for a short season to bring his signs as lying wonders.

I don't disagree if I'm understanding you correctly. The "bottomless pit" could easily be a metaphor for something that can't be filled. In the case of mankind, his lust. Not an imaginary hole in the ground. The chain that binds the devil is the gospel.

 

[Journeyman]

thats the first beast.

this is the second beast:

Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

That's ok. It doesn't explain why the 1st beast John sees coming from the sea, is described as coming from the abyss in Rev.17:8.

 

[Hevosmies]

That's ok. It doesn't explain why the 1st beast John sees coming from the sea, is described as coming from the abyss in Rev.17:8.

do you know why that is? tell us

 

[Journeyman]

do you know why that is? tell us

It could be as simple as "the sea" being the sea of humanity and "the bottomless pit" as a metaphor for sinful desire which can never bring lasting fulfillment.

 

[Ahwatukee]

If the beast comes out of the "bottomless pit", why does John say,

And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea Rev.13:1

Are the bottomless pit and the sea the same thing?

You have to remember that the word dragon/beast is used to represent 1) Satan, 2) a kingdom and 3) the ruler of that kingdom. The beast has seven heads, seven crowns and ten horns. These characteristics are mentioned in Rev.17.

Seven Heads = The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits.

Seven Crown = There are also seven kings. (succession of kings)

Ten Horns = The ten horns you saw are ten kings (Kings ruling concurrent with the beast)

The woman riding the beast/Babylon the Great = The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.”

If you will notice, in Rev.13:1, John says "And I saw rising out of the sea a beast." And down in Rev.13:11 John says, "Then I saw another beast rising out of the earth.

We know that the beast rising out of the sea is the antichrist/beast. The second beast rising out of the earth is figurative of the false prophet - Rev.16:13, 19:20.

Regardless of the meaning of "sea" we have multiple scriptures stating that the beast will come up out of the Abyss, whichmeans that he is currently restricted to it. Whatever the meaning of "the sea" is, it is not going to change the fact that he comes up out of the Abyss.

1). They were ruled by a king, the angel of the Abyss. His name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek it is Apollyon - Rev.9:11

2). When the two witnesses have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will wage war with them, and will overpower and kill them. - Rev.11:7

3). The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction - Rev.17:8

4). The beast that was, and now is not, is an eighth king, who belongs to the other seven and is going into destruction. - Rev.17:11

* So, the beast is an angel

* He is currently in the Abyss

* The beast/angel is going to be released from the Abyss at the sounding of the fifth trumpet, which is when it is opened

* He is most likely going to be the power behind the antichrist who is a human being

* He is an eighth king belonging to the succession of the previous seven kings

* When Jesus returns to the earth to end the age, the beast along with the false prophet/second beast, will go to his destruction by being thrown into the lake of fire, alive - Rev.19:20