Why I now have issues about "once saved, always saved"

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eternally-gratefull said:
You did not change anything
The lord has to save you till the end and perfect you because you are unable to so yourself.
So if God can not do it, (like you said) we have no hope.
Click to expand...

I will persist on explaining may point

Believer => Promise but not perfected => Christ returns perfected
Believer => Perfected through promise and walk to reach Christ likeness => Christ returns to perfected church

My concern is about the true perfecting of Gods people in reality.
Grace always has a part to play, but walking as Christ walked is our heart.
And it is this walk in the Spirit that is the reality of salvation and sanctification.

It is the denial of the necessity of the walk that leads to failure, and its cause is unbelief.

It does not matter to me that those in unbelief reside there, I speak to His sheep who wish
to walk as Jesus walked, they are saved and empowered to do so, as Paul says

"Aim at perfection"
 
FollowHisSteps said:
I will persist on explaining may point

Believer => Promise but not perfected => Christ returns perfected
Believer => Perfected through promise and walk to reach Christ likeness => Christ returns to perfected church

My concern is about the true perfecting of Gods people in reality.
Grace always has a part to play, but walking as Christ walked is our heart.
And it is this walk in the Spirit that is the reality of salvation and sanctification.

It is the denial of the necessity of the walk that leads to failure, and its cause is unbelief.

It does not matter to me that those in unbelief reside there, I speak to His sheep who wish
to walk as Jesus walked, they are saved and empowered to do so, as Paul says

"Aim at perfection"
Click to expand...
And i will use scripture
Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

Pretty self explanitory
 
eternally-gratefull said:
Osas says because of the cross, i am saved at that moment. Because of gods promise

You believe if you have the power to still believe at that time, you may get to heaven

This is how i see it.

Click to expand...

Ha! I give my perception of what OSAS believes and you respond with your belief: "because of the cross, I am saved at that moment. Because of God's promise" I will accept that as your belief, though I still think that in reality . . .

On the other hand I gave what I believe non-OSAS teaches (and what I believe) and you responded with "You believe if you have the power to still believe at that time, you may get to heaven." Will you accept my belief I have earlier, though in reality you will obviously still think that . . .

Don't know if you can follow my thought above: I think it is a bit hilarious that we do the same thing to each other.

That is how I see it! :):)
 
Grandpa said:
Salvation is a gift from God.

It is not a condition placed on men to attain.

If, at a point in time in the past, God has Saved someone then they stay in that Saved condition because it is a Work of God and God doesn't take back His Gifts.


Non-OSAS believes that it is up to men to save themselves by correctly believing in scripture at either just the right time or at all times, depending on who preaches it.
Click to expand...

So if non-OSAS believes that it is up to men to save themselves . . . (and I am non-OSAS), so according to your post I believe that I need to save myself. Scripture is very clear that no person will ever reach heaven by trying to save themselves.

Conclusion: I am going to hell

Is that what you are saying about me, or am I misreading your post?

Really, I am not trying to be accusatory or reactionary here, but if you really mean what your post says then this is serious business. All non-OSAS people are damned according to what you say. Is this what you believe?
 
Jimbone said:
See I personally have an issue, not problem, or disagreement, but a technical issue with this statement. I've personally "believed" I was saved before when I wasn't. I repeated the prayer, was dunked under water, was declared saved, but I absolutely DID NOT know Him. So how do we reconcile what this says here with what God has shown me. I believed I was saved, and I truly liked the "idea" of Jesus, but was still not born again. I don't disagree with what you're saying at all (I couldn't without disagreeing with scripture, that's just what it plainly says), but just sharing that "believe" was a much bigger word than I knew, and sometimes when we make it sound like just "saying so" is enough, with no looking at the problem with man's hopelessly wicked heart, the absolute NEED for a Savior, and turning from "your way" to Him (repentance). So without a doubt "those who believe are saved", but sometimes you can believe you believe when you don't, at least in my experience.
Click to expand...

Oh, my, what a good post you wrote. And you express yourself so clearly. My post was too short and concise to deal with the issue you speak of here. It was not trying to address the struggle of coming to understand and really believe at a heart level versus a head level.

I am glad you have found the joy and peace of true belief.
 
eternally-gratefull said:
And i will use scripture
Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

Pretty self explanitory
Click to expand...
Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
Heb 10:13-14

This is an interesting verse. Our belief is God can make us, transform us to be like Jesus.
As I am saying, Paul seems to imply it is our sowing to the Spirit that makes this a reality,
slaves to righteousness, which fits with everything throughout scripture.
We are made Holy by learning, obeying, listening, being taught, taking responsibility that
God has given us.

There is an element that God transforms us through this, and it is His work though we
abiding in the vine walk the path. So who is working and walking the path? The redeemed with their
Lord. To not walk the path is to declare the Lord is not present and He is not working within.

To believe Jesus, is to believe this is possible, now, here.
To have unbelief is to deny God can achieve this in His people.

So much fits together, the step of faith, the reality of transformation , the praise and glory
that lifts our hearts.

And the argument against this is the failure in some peoples lives, who neither commune or
dwell in Gods will, His heart, His desire, His glory. Their defeat comes out of legalistic, nit picking
communities where spiritual reality did not burst through for these folk.

So my conclusion is, the unbelief is testimony enough of not knowing salvation in the sense
Jesus means it. Now sometimes I get elated incorrectly, but here so much makes sense, and what
I feel in Him, and what others testify to, depressed hearts and lives, not flowing with praise and worship
to their King. Thank you Lord for this anointing, and your blessing through the Holy Spirit. Amen
 
Chester said:
So if non-OSAS believes that it is up to men to save themselves . . . (and I am non-OSAS), so according to your post I believe that I need to save myself. Scripture is very clear that no person will ever reach heaven by trying to save themselves.

Conclusion: I am going to hell

Is that what you are saying about me, or am I misreading your post?

Really, I am not trying to be accusatory or reactionary here, but if you really mean what your post says then this is serious business. All non-OSAS people are damned according to what you say. Is this what you believe?
Click to expand...
I'm not saying you are going to hell. I am saying your conclusion is wrong. What you imply about salvation is un-biblical.

And you know it.

You KNOW that men don't save themselves. You KNOW that Salvation is the Gift of God.

But you IMPLY that men keep themselves saved by what they do or else they lose their salvation.


If men keep themselves saved by what they do then they are effectively saving themselves. Or losing themselves. And Salvation is no longer a gift but a prize to be merited by work. Or lost by lack of work.


This implication does not mean you are going to hell. It means you have an incorrect understanding. Is it possible to be saved and have an incorrect understanding? It doesn't seem likely, but I'm not God. I don't make that call.
 
Grandpa said:
I'm not saying you are going to hell. I am saying your conclusion is wrong. What you imply about salvation is un-biblical.
And you know it.
You KNOW that men don't save themselves. You KNOW that Salvation is the Gift of God.
But you IMPLY that men keep themselves saved by what they do or else they lose their salvation.
If men keep themselves saved by what they do then they are effectively saving themselves. Or losing themselves. And Salvation is no longer a gift but a prize to be merited by work. Or lost by lack of work.
This implication does not mean you are going to hell. It means you have an incorrect understanding. Is it possible to be saved and have an incorrect understanding? It doesn't seem likely, but I'm not God. I don't make that call.
Click to expand...

I have heard this language before. But saying someone knows they are wrong is just projection and speculation.

Man has never saved himself. But a follow of Jesus follows, and takes Jesus's example as His own.
This is the way to life, the way of life, the truth of Jesus.

It has always been about how can the mortal become eternal.
And faith and the walk have always been part of it. The language around this is disputed, and the extreme
freedom people claim they can sin without consequence or denial of their spiritual reality.

Scripture declares the opposite. To follow is to not do evil but do good.
Now I know this seems like a burden of legalism, because in the flesh it is impossible to tame the heart.
But here we are talking not about the how, but the what we do.

And Paul and Peter were clear. Be Holy, be Pure, be Loving, be Obedient.

If this is impossible for you, then ask me the question about How and I will answer.
But you have to have faith to believe Jesus through the cross makes this walk possible.

Without faith there is no salvation.
 
Chester said:
It is quite hilarious that I do not believe anything even close to this . . . .!!!!! (but you will still think I do. . . )
Click to expand...
How else can you explain it? You can not say it is the power of god, because god promised he would never let you go. So if you can go, then it must be of your own power.
 
eternally-gratefull said:
How else can you explain it? You can not say it is the power of god, because god promised he would never let you go. So if you can go, then it must be of your own power.
Click to expand...

I love this verse
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.
My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.
John 10:29-29

This is the eternal perspective. The testing of our hearts is through the hard times, do we hold on and make
our calling sure.

Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall,
and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
2 Peter 1:10-11

Because we are His sheep we stand firm, and things become a reality in our hearts, spending time in His word.
But which comes first or together? Or is it impossible to divide the two?

And is the distraction of unbelievers and apostates worthy of consideration? As they test and refine who we
are, Praise the Lord for His discipline and His direction.

The foolishness of some is to suggest those who betray the Father and the Son actually love Him, rather than
they are displaying their true colours. But then maybe these speakers themselves are lost and cling on to the
vestiges of a faith they once had, but now seem bereft of. And if in this state they blaspheme the Lord of all
what hope is there left for them? Time will tell if the flame of faith will rekindle and they will find the reality
in His caring hands.
 
Grandpa said:
I'm not saying you are going to hell. I am saying your conclusion is wrong. What you imply about salvation is un-biblical.

And you know it.

You KNOW that men don't save themselves. You KNOW that Salvation is the Gift of God.

But you IMPLY that men keep themselves saved by what they do or else they lose their salvation.


If men keep themselves saved by what they do then they are effectively saving themselves. Or losing themselves. And Salvation is no longer a gift but a prize to be merited by work. Or lost by lack of work.


This implication does not mean you are going to hell. It means you have an incorrect understanding. Is it possible to be saved and have an incorrect understanding? It doesn't seem likely, but I'm not God. I don't make that call.
Click to expand...

I am glad you make the distinction that I "imply" something about salvation: In other words - you think my view about the new birth and how one is saved implies that "salvation is no longer a gift, but a prize to be merited by work.

At least you do not insist that I believe or teach those dreadful conclusions you are making. Instead you say only that I "imply" them. Well, I can do nothing about what you think about my beliefs - but I know for myself that my faith in the finished work of Christ is all that is needed for the grace of my Lord God to set me free and to give me eternal life. Hallelujah, He has promised to be with me till the end for "I will never leave thee nor forsake thee".
 
Chester said:
I am glad you make the distinction that I "imply" something about salvation: In other words - you think my view about the new birth and how one is saved implies that "salvation is no longer a gift, but a prize to be merited by work.

At least you do not insist that I believe or teach those dreadful conclusions you are making. Instead you say only that I "imply" them. Well, I can do nothing about what you think about my beliefs - but I know for myself that my faith in the finished work of Christ is all that is needed for the grace of my Lord God to set me free and to give me eternal life. Hallelujah, He has promised to be with me till the end for "I will never leave thee nor forsake thee".
Click to expand...
So you believe in eternal life and Salvation but you just don't believe you have been given them, yet?
 
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FollowHisSteps said:
I have heard this language before. But saying someone knows they are wrong is just projection and speculation.

Man has never saved himself. But a follow of Jesus follows, and takes Jesus's example as His own.
This is the way to life, the way of life, the truth of Jesus.

It has always been about how can the mortal become eternal.
And faith and the walk have always been part of it. The language around this is disputed, and the extreme
freedom people claim they can sin without consequence or denial of their spiritual reality.

Scripture declares the opposite. To follow is to not do evil but do good.
Now I know this seems like a burden of legalism, because in the flesh it is impossible to tame the heart.
But here we are talking not about the how, but the what we do.

And Paul and Peter were clear. Be Holy, be Pure, be Loving, be Obedient.

If this is impossible for you, then ask me the question about How and I will answer.
But you have to have faith to believe Jesus through the cross makes this walk possible.

Without faith there is no salvation.
Click to expand...
This is not just impossible for me, it is impossible for everyone.

1 John 1:7-10
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Do you just not understand scripture?

I'm not sure what this has to do with OSAS...
 
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Grandpa said:
This is not just impossible for me, it is impossible for everyone.

1 John 1:7-10
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Do you just not understand scripture?

I'm not sure what this has to do with OSAS...
Click to expand...

One view of this verse is that we are always is sin, always sinning, slaves to sin we cannot get out of it.
On the other hand it can be viewed we are born in sin, and sin at various points in our lives, which Christ
can resolve through the cross, repentance and faith.

Now those who follow OSAS tend to live in unbelief that we can walk as Jesus walked.
This makes OSAS just a realistic view, we are lost in sin and only coming to faith at some point saves us.

If the impossible is true, the path is to be like Jesus, then your expression this is impossible is exactly
what I am saying, unbelief in Jesus's message.

And if you disbelief Jesus, and His word, then there is no eternal life.
So I have to thank those who so want to destroy righteous people as hypocrites, it has knocked away
the blindness of the unbelief and error, to see being yoked to Jesus, is to walk like Him.

And as you show, your theology leads people to deny Christ.

A sign of disbelief. How does your heart react to these words

Be Holy, do not be impure, aim at perfection, if you want to be perfect follow me.

My immediate reaction is impossible, another nail in the coffin of ridiculous optimism.
But if Jesus is the Son of God, and the cross is the transformation of the heart of man, and Jesus is
doing the impossible, then I can listen to Him, and believe Him and the apostles.

But I just call people to start to just listen to Jesus and ask is this their heart?
And then for us to learn as a body to walk in blamelessness, purity and holiness as Paul exhorts us to do.

God bless you all, dear Holy brother and sisters in Christ.
 
it does say in hebrew that those who experience the spirit, if they were to fall away can never come back, but he continues to say better things in the case of the hebrews
 
FollowHisSteps said:
Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
Heb 10:13-14

This is an interesting verse. Our belief is God can make us, transform us to be like Jesus.
As I am saying, Paul seems to imply it is our sowing to the Spirit that makes this a reality,
slaves to righteousness, which fits with everything throughout scripture.
We are made Holy by learning, obeying, listening, being taught, taking responsibility that
God has given us.

There is an element that God transforms us through this, and it is His work though we
abiding in the vine walk the path. So who is working and walking the path? The redeemed with their
Lord. To not walk the path is to declare the Lord is not present and He is not working within.

To believe Jesus, is to believe this is possible, now, here.
To have unbelief is to deny God can achieve this in His people.

So much fits together, the step of faith, the reality of transformation , the praise and glory
that lifts our hearts.

And the argument against this is the failure in some peoples lives, who neither commune or
dwell in Gods will, His heart, His desire, His glory. Their defeat comes out of legalistic, nit picking
communities where spiritual reality did not burst through for these folk.

So my conclusion is, the unbelief is testimony enough of not knowing salvation in the sense
Jesus means it. Now sometimes I get elated incorrectly, but here so much makes sense, and what
I feel in Him, and what others testify to, depressed hearts and lives, not flowing with praise and worship
to their King. Thank you Lord for this anointing, and your blessing through the Holy Spirit. Amen
Click to expand...
How do you come up with this?

The passage is clear. Those whom god is sanctifying (a lifelong orocess of making a oerson mote like christ, have been perfected forever!
 
Grandpa said:
So you believe in eternal life and Salvation but you just don't believe you have been given them, yet?
Click to expand...
Eternal life can not be eternal if it can be lost for any reason. It would have to be called conditional life
 
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