Can We Eliminate the Divide Between Calvinism and Arminianism?

[obedienttogod]

Hi, Everyone -

I proffer that the answer to the question I posed is "yes", and the reason I decided to join this Christian chat service is to get your reaction to my approach on this subject. Perhaps, some will respond to my approach with a convincing and compelling rebuttal to demonstrate the ways in which my approach is flawed.

In the world of physics there are two irreconcilable disciplines: "quantum mechanics" and "relativity". The rules found in quantum mechanics do not apply in relativity, and, likewise, the rules found in relativity do not apply to quantum mechanics. This divide has led scientists to attempt to define a theory that unifies these two disciplines . Despite being unsuccessful for decades, the effort to unite the two approaches continues today.

In light of Scripture, it would seem Christians would have within themselves a similar desire to unite those who adhere to either of these theological traditions. For example, Jesus prayed in John 17 the following:

I do not pray for these [Jesus' 11 disciples] alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.




My Perspective on Arminianism and Calvinism

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Interesting, tying the thought process of those within science, to see if their theory (Hypothesis) works towards the Word of God. Had science been able to connect the gap between "quantum mechanics" and "relativity," Bibles would have already been burnt to nothing.

Nevertheless, I like where your intent is at.

Concerning this issue between Arminianism and Calvinism, this has been a long discussed issue going back many moons ago. What amazes me most, is that I was raised in a strong biblical family. A family full of pastors, preachers, and evangelists. And I never can recall one single time we ever had a discussion about Arminianism and Calvinism. I never heard the actual coined term Arminianism vs Calvinism, before. But, I am well aware of denominations who are greatly concerned about this issue. An issue that looks more like Pharisee vs Sadducee than anything else. From my understanding, no one has made ground one way or another. And each other look at one another like the Hatfield's and McCoy's do. Oddly enough, they are suppose to be Brothers/Sisters in Christ. Now, if that ain't a head scratcher, than I don't know what one is

 

[Chester]

Interesting, tying the thought process of those within science, to see if their theory (Hypothesis) works towards the Word of God. Had science been able to connect the gap between "quantum mechanics" and "relativity," Bibles would have already been burnt to nothing.

Nevertheless, I like where your intent is at.

Concerning this issue between Arminianism and Calvinism, this has been a long discussed issue going back many moons ago. What amazes me most, is that I was raised in a strong biblical family. A family full of pastors, preachers, and evangelists. And I never can recall one single time we ever had a discussion about Arminianism and Calvinism. I never heard the actual coined term Arminianism vs Calvinism, before. But, I am well aware of denominations who are greatly concerned about this issue. An issue that looks more like Pharisee vs Sadducee than anything else. From my understanding, no one has made ground one way or another. And each other look at one another like the Hatfield's and McCoy's do. Oddly enough, they are suppose to be Brothers/Sisters in Christ. Now, if that ain't a head scratcher, than I don't know what one is

 

[Chester]

Interesting, tying the thought process of those within science, to see if their theory (Hypothesis) works towards the Word of God. Had science been able to connect the gap between "quantum mechanics" and "relativity," Bibles would have already been burnt to nothing.

Nevertheless, I like where your intent is at.

Concerning this issue between Arminianism and Calvinism, this has been a long discussed issue going back many moons ago. What amazes me most, is that I was raised in a strong biblical family. A family full of pastors, preachers, and evangelists. And I never can recall one single time we ever had a discussion about Arminianism and Calvinism. I never heard the actual coined term Arminianism vs Calvinism, before. But, I am well aware of denominations who are greatly concerned about this issue. An issue that looks more like Pharisee vs Sadducee than anything else. From my understanding, no one has made ground one way or another. And each other look at one another like the Hatfield's and McCoy's do. Oddly enough, they are suppose to be Brothers/Sisters in Christ. Now, if that ain't a head scratcher, than I don't know what one is

You didn't grow up hearing the debate? Lucky you; you were likely just taught what the Bible says. If you want to get to heaven, you need to believe in Jesus and his blood atonement, and then follow Him.

Simple enough? Yes, indeed it is!
(Be careful - that phrase "and then follow him" probably makes you an Arminian)

But do you wish to join the ongoing debacle on CC? Just answer this question: Can salvation be lost? You answer that question and you will immediately be cast into one of two camps. And if you don't answer it, it will be suspicioned that you are a closet Arminian!

(HA! I probably should not use "suspicion' as a verb, but I like the way it sounds - LOL!)



Post # 42 is a mistake - hit the wrong button too fast!

 

[Nehemiah6]

Hi again Nehemiah6, to a 1st Century Jew (like the Apostle John or Jesus) "the whole world" really meant two worlds, Jewish and Greek (Jew and Gentile).

That may be, but when we see "the world" in John 3:16,17 and related passages, no such distinction is being made. Strong's Concordance and Thayer's Lexicon both show that kosmos means "the inhabitants of the world".

 

[obedienttogod]

You didn't grow up hearing the debate? Lucky you; you were likely just taught what the Bible says. If you want to get to heaven, you need to believe in Jesus and his blood atonement, and then follow Him.

Simple enough? Yes, indeed it is!
(Be careful - that phrase "and then follow him" probably makes you an Arminian)

But do you wish to join the ongoing debacle on CC? Just answer this question: Can salvation be lost? You answer that question and you will immediately be cast into one of two camps. And if you don't answer it, it will be suspicioned that you are a closet Arminian!

I must have been lucky because we never discussed this issue.

As far as your answer is concerned, that is very simple. God, who provided the necessary requirement for us to to be saved, would therefore not be in a habit of removing our salvation for every bump we hit in the road. And anyone truly saved, whether they sin or not, is not looking to leave God. But to those who have lost their salvation, it was not removed from them by God, it was given away by those who never were actually saved to begin with.

 

[noblenut]

there are things in the bible that are planned and other things that just happened, Josephs life and ascension to power was planned by God butkings saul's sin and rebellion was unplanned for because it says if he had not done that his kingdom would have continued so God chose another, David to serve him

 

[noblenut]

i always find it amusing the knots calvinist get into when it comes to original sin, but the opposite is total anarchy. i believe God new whats was going on in the garden but he also new how he is going to correct it.

 

[Adstar]

I think Jesus is neither Calvinist nor Arminian, but here is a brief about both doctrines:

Looks official Marcelio

I don't know if there is an arminian on CC about but i will ask this about the points..

1) Deprivation..
When it says that people are incapable of being righteous on their own but that they can be transformed by Gods Grace.. Is it saying that people can be transformed from one state of being to the righteous state in this life.. Or are they saying that we shall be transformed upon the day of the resurrection?

2)Conditional Election.. ""God has chosen that all humanity be righteous by His grace"" does that mean God is going to save everyone and make them righteous by His grace? ( universalism ) Or is that statement just saying that God has chosen grace as the Way that people are to be made righteous? It can be read in different ways..

The end part of that definition i have no idea what it means?? Fulfilling election ?? whats that all about..

3)Unlimited atonement.. The statement seems to be saying two opposing things.. That God has chosen all humanity to receive atonement ( universalism ) but then it says ""whosoever will"" which seems to suggest only those humans that will to receive it will receive it.. Which is opposed to universalism..

4) Resistible grace: The definition seems clear to me and i agree with this one..

5) Assurance and security: The definition seems clear to me and i agree with this one..

 

[John146]

i always find it amusing the knots calvinist get into when it comes to original sin, but the opposite is total anarchy. i believe God new whats was going on in the garden but he also new how he is going to correct it.

They will always place election ahead of God's foreknowledge.

 

[Hevosmies]

I don't know if there is an arminian on CC about but i will ask this about the points..

There are very few arminians (real ones) in the world today.

I'd say majority of Christendom would be considered semi-pelagians.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

While I agree, Calvinism and Arminianism can not be united in any way (they teach different gospel)

I also believe the same gospel for the jews is also for the gentile.

The election of Romans 11 is not concerning salvation, but concerning a nation. It has nothing to do with anyones salvation.

As paul said, Both jew and gentile needed to be grafted in. Something neither could do themselves. The only difference was the Jew was a natural and gentile unnatural.

What is the context of this?

The OT is jewish, the jew was brought up in the OT teachings (they just misinterpreted it which is why they rejected christ) as with paul. It would be natural. Once his eyes were opened for him to see the truth

The gentile was mostely pagan or multi God centric in their faiths. For them to recieve a single God concept Such as the OT taught, it woudl be unnatural for them.

This is just one example of a misrepresentation

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If Christ died for the sins of the whole world then everyone is saved regardless of their belief and there is no point in theology at all.

But the bible is obviously clear in the fact that only Believers are saved. So we have to come to the conclusion that the Lord Jesus died for the sins of the elect. The sins of the unbeliever still condemn them.

This is only true if Jesus also died for the sin of unbelief.

Scripture says those who do not believe are condemned. So the sin of unbelief was not taken.

All other sins are or were taken. Thats why jesus himself said ALL manner of sin will be forgiven all men.

I know lots of people hate Calvinism because they get their feelings hurt.

But I haven't heard anyone say they hate Calvinism because they think everyone who was ever born and ever will be born is automatically saved by the death of Christ regardless of their beliefs or actions.

I do not hate calvinim. I do howevert, Hate double predestination. Or fatalism, Which is a calvinism concept.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Any Arminian who bases their assurance of salvation on "continued faithfulness" is bound to have troubles with assurance of salvation. Here is a major reason I do not consider myself an "Arminian".

An arminian does not believe in eternal security, so they have no base of any assurance of salvation.

That is one major distinction which seperates an arminian from a calvinian.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I must have been lucky because we never discussed this issue.

As far as your answer is concerned, that is very simple. God, who provided the necessary requirement for us to to be saved, would therefore not be in a habit of removing our salvation for every bump we hit in the road. And anyone truly saved, whether they sin or not, is not looking to leave God. But to those who have lost their salvation, it was not removed from them by God, it was given away by those who never were actually saved to begin with.

If you have not heard them be careful in CC. You will find most arguments on grace vs works has to do with the long time war between calvin and arminian people. It is one group trying to attack the toehr. Not realising most people are niether one or the other. But they can not fathom that, So you get alot of peole who do not understand the group they are trying to fight. Because they will not remove their calvin vs arminian blinders.. Then of course you add the catholics to that mess, and watch out!!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

There are very few arminians (real ones) in the world today.

I'd say majority of Christendom would be considered semi-pelagians.

Lol. Now you just confused more people probably..lol explain what a palagian is!!

 

[Hevosmies]

Lol. Now you just confused more people probably..lol explain what a palagian is!!

here is even more confusion: Semi-pelagianism is not the same as pelagianism!

Here is a good description:

Pelagianism is a belief in Christianity that original sin did not taint human nature and that mortal will is still capable of choosing good or evil without special divine aid.

Semi-Pelagianism allows that humanity is tainted by sin, but not to the extent that we cannot cooperate with God's grace on our own. Semi-Pelagianism is, in essence, partial depravity as opposed to total depravity. We are sinful, but we can still recognize the truth, cooperate with God’s grace, and choose to seek Christ. We need God’s grace to be saved, but we can take the first step toward Christ on our own, apart from grace.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

here is even more confusion: Semi-pelagianism is not the same as pelagianism!

Here is a good description:

Pelagianism is a belief in Christianity that original sin did not taint human nature and that mortal will is still capable of choosing good or evil without special divine aid.

Semi-Pelagianism allows that humanity is tainted by sin, but not to the extent that we cannot cooperate with God's grace on our own. Semi-Pelagianism is, in essence, partial depravity as opposed to total depravity. We are sinful, but we can still recognize the truth, cooperate with God’s grace, and choose to seek Christ. We need God’s grace to be saved, but we can take the first step toward Christ on our own, apart from grace.

Thanks.

Well hmmmm, I am neither of those. Nor am I calvinist or arminian (or catholic) so where do I stand?? Lolol

Thats why I wish we would just discuss beliefs not just try to put people into different groups. If we did that, there would be alot less confusion

 

[cv5]

"irreconcilable disciplines: "quantum mechanics" and "relativity"."

Both theories are incomplete, flawed and obsolete.

As for Calvinism and Arminianism....
Same criticism applies....

 

[GodsGrace101]

"irreconcilable disciplines: "quantum mechanics" and "relativity"."

Both theories are incomplete, flawed and obsolete.

As for Calvinism and Arminianism....
Same criticism applies....

You made an interesting statement...

I can't say to be either one, and definetly not calvinist:
But if both are incomplete, flawed and obsolete and you have the same criticism...
it means you've come up with a brand new theory?
Or do you just mean that neither one is correct in it's total theory?

 

[obedienttogod]

If you have not heard them be careful in CC. You will find most arguments on grace vs works has to do with the long time war between calvin and arminian people. It is one group trying to attack the toehr. Not realising most people are niether one or the other. But they can not fathom that, So you get alot of peole who do not understand the group they are trying to fight. Because they will not remove their calvin vs arminian blinders.. Then of course you add the catholics to that mess, and watch out!!

I will keep this in mind, Thank You!!