Did Jesus die for the sins of all mankind?

[eternally-gratefull]

This is the Way God has made it.

His Ways are far above our Ways and His Thoughts are far above our thoughts.

If you want to make the argument that God has done this because He knows what everyones choices would have been anyway and He denies those who would have denied Him and accepts those who would have accepted Him I suppose all I can say is that the bible doesn't state it that way.

I also want to say that this conversation is NOT for baby Christians, ever... This is for Christians who can stand the meat of the Word. I am sure I have said many things that could offend a baby Christian. But a more mature Christian who knows their bible will surely understand that I am not saying anything that the bible itself does not say.

Amen, The differeing views of election are not for the baby christian. All it can possibly do is confuse them and possibly turn them from one or the other group.

 

[JaumeJ]

Hello SOF:......are you talking to me? I have not been able to follow this God bless you always.

 

[stonesoffire]

Hello SOF:......are you talking to me? I have not been able to follow this God bless you always.

That was a response to grandpa Jaume. But, I do love to hear your testimonies in your posts!

 

[Grandpa]

Amen, The differeing views of election are not for the baby christian. All it can possibly do is confuse them and possibly turn them from one or the other group.

It takes a lot of study, a lot of reading and a lot of prayer to start to formulate these ideas of election and predestination and the Sovereignty of God.

I had thought, that when I was coming to Christ, that I was the one deciding which steps to take and which gifts to ask for, thinking it was up to me to do all the work required for Salvation. I was basically an Arminian as a baby Christian. The theology of Calvinism hadn't even yet crossed my mind.

It wasn't until after I had worked out my own salvation and did much study and prayer that I realized that it was God that had led me each step of the Way towards Him and towards Salvation. I really did think I was all that but I knew even I had my limits. Even through my pride and vanity I knew I was not smart enough to put myself into the perfect situations asking the perfect questions and asking for the perfect Gifts at just the perfect time. After awhile I could actually feel the gentle tug of the Holy Spirit. Gentle but firm.

You can't just tell all that to a baby Christian, I don't think. It is kind of offensive to the pride and the will of man. It has to come from God.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It takes a lot of study, a lot of reading and a lot of prayer to start to formulate these ideas of election and predestination and the Sovereignty of God.

I had thought, that when I was coming to Christ, that I was the one deciding which steps to take and which gifts to ask for, thinking it was up to me to do all the work required for Salvation. I was basically an Arminian as a baby Christian. The theology of Calvinism hadn't even yet crossed my mind.

It wasn't until after I had worked out my own salvation and did much study and prayer that I realized that it was God that had led me each step of the Way towards Him and towards Salvation. I really did think I was all that but I knew even I had my limits. Even through my pride and vanity I knew I was not smart enough to put myself into the perfect situations asking the perfect questions and asking for the perfect Gifts at just the perfect time. After awhile I could actually feel the gentle tug of the Holy Spirit. Gentle but firm.

You can't just tell all that to a baby Christian, I don't think. It is kind of offensive to the pride and the will of man. It has to come from God.

I was never an arminian, And until probably the last ten years, I had never heard true election doctrines based on Calvinist views. I do remember being told we are more calvinist, but it was not until I started to study what that means that I realised I was not that either. I was just a Child of God who had beliefs, and my beliefs did not always line up with others.. (I actually stopped telling people I was baptist. Because as soon as I said this, They assumed all these things about me which was not true, and when I tried to tell many of them that those things were not true, they could not believe me. They would say if I was a baptist, that is what I believed.

Sadly we see that to much in here, which is why I hate the arminian vs calvin vs catholic vs orthodox vs lutheran vs (insert whatever church you want) debate.

Anyway, I knew The moment i was saved it was not of me, I prayed in my room for months asking God to save me, But never really understood what that meant or what I was doing, It was not until one of the deacons in the church took me aside and showed me the gospel road that I finally saw, opened my heart and asked God in. And I knew at that moment I was saved forever, Not based on anything I did. But what God did.

Doctrines of election, Soverignty, The characters of God (omniscience, omnipresent, omnipotent etc etc) was not things I learned or even thought of until many years later.

It is definately not for the baby who can only handle milk.. Trying to feed them these T-Bone Steaks of Gods word will only cause them to get sick!!

 

[noblenut]

Name a few[/QU
causing a little one to sin, blaspheming the spirit, betraying righteous blood, lying to God, perverting the gospel

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Lol.. Jesus said ALL sin WILL (not might) Be forgiven ALL (not some) MEN, Except blasphemy of the spirit

Jesus said he who believes is NOT CONDEMNED, but he who DOES NOT BELIEVE is CONDEMNED ALREADY

I think it is prety obvious the only thing which will cause a person to remain dead in sin is the sin of unbelief, also knows as blasphemy against the spirit.

 

[PennEd]

This is kind of a difficult question.

Everyone here, pretty much, has limited the Atonement in some way. Except maybe Stonesoffire.

Some don't know they do it and no matter how much you explain to them what they are doing they don't get it.

The Lord Jesus Himself limits His Own Atonement here;

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

If the Lord Jesus died for ALL the sins of the Whole World without exception then there is nothing to be condemned of.

So obviously, since the Lord said it, it is true and the Lord Jesus died for the sins of those who believe.


The Atonement is for Believers only and unbelievers are excluded and condemned still.

I don't know brother. I'm not onboard with The "L". The other letters have direct Biblical verses. The "L" we have to use human logic and reasoning to get there.

I could rent out the Ritz Carlton and invite EVERYONE. But ONLY those who actually show up and come get to stay. It DOESN'T mean I haven't paid for every room. Used or not.

 

[Locoponydirtman]

Yes the entire work of salvation is of the Lord. His sacrifice is powerful to cover all sin, every sin, of every man. If a man fail to appropriate this price paid for him it is on him, not that the price paid is not enough for him also. Just that he choose rebellion rather than submission and did not receive the free gift.

 

[Grandpa]

I don't know brother. I'm not onboard with The "L". The other letters have direct Biblical verses. The "L" we have to use human logic and reasoning to get there.

I could rent out the Ritz Carlton and invite EVERYONE. But ONLY those who actually show up and come get to stay. It DOESN'T mean I haven't paid for every room. Used or not.

Yes. That is what everyone is saying, including me.

The Atonement is sufficient for all. I wouldn't dare say otherwise.

The Atonement is applied to Believers. I definitely wouldn't say that the Atonement is applied to unbelievers.

Therefore, Atonement is Limited to Believers only.


You understand the implication of saying that the Atonement is applied to all men, right?

 

[Grandpa]

Lol.. Jesus said ALL sin WILL (not might) Be forgiven ALL (not some) MEN, Except blasphemy of the spirit

Jesus said he who believes is NOT CONDEMNED, but he who DOES NOT BELIEVE is CONDEMNED ALREADY

I think it is prety obvious the only thing which will cause a person to remain dead in sin is the sin of unbelief, also knows as blasphemy against the spirit.

I don't think simple unbelief is blasphemy against the spirit. Although it definitely could manifest that way.

But lets say that someone didn't believe in God. They were an unbeliever. But then later they came to Christ. Wouldn't that sin of unbelief be atoned for when they come to Christ? Wouldn't they be forgiven?

Blasphemy against the Spirit I don't believe is ever forgiven. I haven't studied it too much because frankly I don't really want to know the ins and outs of blaspheming the Spirit. I'd rather stay ignorant and keep coming to Christ as a child....

 

[kaylagrl]

Would it be accurate to say that Jesus died for the sins of all mankind?

It's either accurate or God is a liar.

 

[kaylagrl]

1 John 2:2 seems to say He died for the sins of everyone.

1 John 2:2 (KJV)
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Does this also include everyone who has lived and will live?

Yes,everyone!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I don't think simple unbelief is blasphemy against the spirit. Although it definitely could manifest that way.

But lets say that someone didn't believe in God. They were an unbeliever. But then later they came to Christ. Wouldn't that sin of unbelief be atoned for when they come to Christ? Wouldn't they be forgiven?

Blasphemy against the Spirit I don't believe is ever forgiven. I haven't studied it too much because frankly I don't really want to know the ins and outs of blaspheming the Spirit. I'd rather stay ignorant and keep coming to Christ as a child....

If you look at the words, He said they were in danger of.. even though they had shown unbelief by atrributing the words and work of The HS to satan

I believe a person has until they die to make a decision, If they die in that state, They will have died commiting the blasphemy of the spirit

 

[Grandpa]

If you look at the words, He said they were in danger of.. even though they had shown unbelief by atrributing the words and work of The HS to satan

I believe a person has until they die to make a decision, If they die in that state, They will have died commiting the blasphemy of the spirit

So you limit the Power of the Atonement but not WHO the Atonement is applied to?

That seems weird to me.

The Most Powerful force going for us, the Perfect Blood of the Lamb, couldn't Atone for all of our sins.

No. I can't agree with that. The Blood of the Lamb is sufficient for ALL of our sins. Every single sin that has been and will be committed by men. But the Blood of the Lamb is only applied to Believers. And that is why those that don't believe are condemned.


It should be clear if you ask the question "Is the Blood of the Lamb sufficient for All sins?" When we come to Christ as Believers does He exclude some of our sins in His Atonement?

I don't think so. But as someone recently pointed out I am not a Doctor of Biblical Theology. I'm just a regular Christian.


There are a lot of implications for what we both believe and at some point we both have to say we're not sure if those implications are really what God would have us to Understand or if our understanding is a little faulty.

I know I am sticking to what I understand and you sure are sticking to what you understand. I do have to say what you are saying makes sense, if it works that way. I just don't think it does.

 

[Hevosmies]

Anyone who said sin of unbelief is not atoned for RECONSIDER IT!

Everyone of us was an unbeliever at one point. Unbelief is a sin. You repent of that sin and believe today, GUESS WHAT? It still doesnt ERASE your sin of unbelief.

A return to obedience does not atone for sins. Only the blood of Christ can do that!

Using elbows is against the rules in boxing, I start throwing elbows, I get DQ'd, if I say to the ref "its ok i wont ever do it again" im STILL geting DQ'd!

ALL SIN is atoned for. The Lord died for His sheep!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So you limit the Power of the Atonement but not WHO the Atonement is applied to?

That seems weird to me.

Limit atonement? Atonement is not limited at all.. It just is nor forced on people

The Most Powerful force going for us, the Perfect Blood of the Lamb, couldn't Atone for all of our sins.

How do you get this from what I said. I never said this at all

No. I can't agree with that. The Blood of the Lamb is sufficient for ALL of our sins. Every single sin that has been and will be committed by men. But the Blood of the Lamb is only applied to Believers. And that is why those that don't believe are condemned.


It should be clear if you ask the question "Is the Blood of the Lamb sufficient for All sins?" When we come to Christ as Believers does He exclude some of our sins in His Atonement?

I don't think so. But as someone recently pointed out I am not a Doctor of Biblical Theology. I'm just a regular Christian.


There are a lot of implications for what we both believe and at some point we both have to say we're not sure if those implications are really what God would have us to Understand or if our understanding is a little faulty.

I know I am sticking to what I understand and you sure are sticking to what you understand. I do have to say what you are saying makes sense, if it works that way. I just don't think it does.

Again

I just go by what Jesus said

All manner of sin WILL be forgiven (atonement is not limited it is offered to all) But not all will recieve it. Because as he also said,

Whoever believes is not condemned, Who ever does not believe is condemned already.

And as John added, He gives the people who RECIEVE him in faith the right to be children of God.

Anything outside of this would be adding to the word. Which I can not do.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Anyone who said sin of unbelief is not atoned for RECONSIDER IT!

Everyone of us was an unbeliever at one point. Unbelief is a sin. You repent of that sin and believe today, GUESS WHAT? It still doesnt ERASE your sin of unbelief.

A return to obedience does not atone for sins. Only the blood of Christ can do that!

Using elbows is against the rules in boxing, I start throwing elbows, I get DQ'd, if I say to the ref "its ok i wont ever do it again" im STILL geting DQ'd!

ALL SIN is atoned for. The Lord died for His sheep!

Tell that to Jesus

Whoever does not believe is condemned already.

 

[Hevosmies]

Tell that to Jesus

Whoever does not believe is condemned already.

You didnt get it. If sin of unbelief isnt atoned for, and we were all unbelievers at one point, we are still condemned, since that particular sin wasnt cleansed by the blood. O well

Im not gonna get into explaining this, its filtering mosquitos basically.

Have a good debate fellas. I'll be watching!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You didnt get it. If sin of unbelief isnt atoned for, and we were all unbelievers at one point, we are still condemned, since that particular sin wasnt cleansed by the blood. O well

Im not gonna get into explaining this, its filtering mosquitos basically.

Have a good debate fellas. I'll be watching!

You are not getting it

If the sin of unbelief was atoned for. Then no one would go to hell, Because no one could be condemned.