Does God love all mankind?

[Adstar]

When did Jesus secure the atonement for us? Was it not on the cross? Does not secured mean obtained, accomplished, a finished work? Who did he secure that atonement for? Was it not for all that his Father gave (not will give) him? John 6:39.

Bith gave and will give.. reading the verse in context::

(John 6:39-40) "And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. {40} And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

Those that God had given on that day where the saints who had already lived and died..

Did Jesus not say all that the Father gave him will live in heaven, without the lose of even one?

No.. It does not say that they will live in heaven forever..

If Jesus died for all mankind (which he did not) would not all mankind be saved to heaven?

The Atonement of Jesus could have covered every human being that existed.. But the Atonement only covers those who believe Jesus and trust in the Atonement He secured for their justification..

How do people become sons of God?

By believing God and trusting in the Atonement Jesus secured for their salvation..

Does a child choose to be born of his parents?

No..

Can the natural man choose to be a spiritual man when he cannot discern spiritual things? 1 Cor 2:14.

No.. But a man can resist the leading of the Holy Spirit..

All scriptures are the inspired word of God. I do not claim to understand all scriptures. I do understand that all scriptures must harmonize to be the doctrine that Jesus taught.

I do too..

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Bith gave and will give.. reading the verse in context::

(John 6:39-40) "And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. {40} And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

Those that God had given on that day where the saints who had already lived and died..



No.. It does not say that they will live in heaven forever..



The Atonement of Jesus could have covered every human being that existed.. But the Atonement only covers those who believe Jesus and trust in the Atonement He secured for their justification..



By believing God and trusting in the Atonement Jesus secured for their salvation..



No..



No.. But a man can resist the leading of the Holy Spirit..




I do too..

I am not an expert in the English language, but,I am assuming that the present, past and future tense of the word GAVE is; Give = present tense. Gave = past tense. will give = future tense. In my reasoning, the word gave cannot mean "will give". My point is that God (Psalms 53:2-3) By his foreknowledge saw that no one would seek him, therefore, (Eph 1:4) God chose an elect people before the foundation of the world in a covenant relationship and those are the ones that Jesus said that the Father hath given him (John 6:39). Jesus secured eternal salvation, in a covenant relationship, for all of God's elect children, past, present, and future at his sacrifice on the cross. In John 6:38 Jesus makes the statement that "he should lose nothing (none of those he died for), but raise it up again at the last day". The natural man, as described in 1 Cor 2:14, has no choice, but to resist the leading of the Holy Spirit, because he cannot discern spiritual things, until he is born of the Holy Spirit (Eph 2:5). The only people who believe and trust in the fact that they have been atoned for are the ones that have already been born of the Holy Spirit. (Eph 2:5).

 

[Adstar]

John 6: KJV
39 "And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."

The word here is should lose nothing... Jesus never said I will lose nothing.. He said i should lose nothing. Very different words.. Will lose nothing means that he will definitly not lose anyone.. But should lose nothing is a statement of desire to lose nothing..

To be born in the Holy Spirit one must respond to the leading of the Holy Spirit with agreement.. As i said in my former post people can resist the moving of the Holy Spirit as revealed in the Book of Acts..

Acts 7: KJV
51 "¶ Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye."

 

[ForestGreenCook]

John 6: KJV
39 "And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."

The word here is should lose nothing... Jesus never said I will lose nothing.. He said i should lose nothing. Very different words.. Will lose nothing means that he will definitly not lose anyone.. But should lose nothing is a statement of desire to lose nothing..

To be born in the Holy Spirit one must respond to the leading of the Holy Spirit with agreement.. As i said in my former post people can resist the moving of the Holy Spirit as revealed in the Book of Acts..

Acts 7: KJV
51 "¶ Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye."

It was God's will that Jesus should lose nothing. The question, then is, does God accomplish all of his will? Dan 4:35 - And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou? Rom 9:21 - Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour , and another unto dishonour? Isaiah 46:10 - Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, my councel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure. As I stated before from 1 Cor 2:14 that the natural man, void of the Holy Spirit, cannot but resist the Holy Spirit because they cannot discern spiritual things. These in Acts 7 were but natural men because they were uncircumcised in heart and ears.

 

[Adstar]

It was God's will that Jesus should lose nothing. The question, then is, does God accomplish all of his will? Dan 4:35 - And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou? Rom 9:21 - Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour , and another unto dishonour? Isaiah 46:10 - Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, my councel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure. As I stated before from 1 Cor 2:14 that the natural man, void of the Holy Spirit, cannot but resist the Holy Spirit because they cannot discern spiritual things. These in Acts 7 were but natural men because they were uncircumcised in heart and ears.

Well God reveals His will in another verse lets read it..

2 Peter 3: KJV
" {9} The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

Now as with the former verse we have discussed with the words should in them this verse also uses the word should twice.. Now i believe the we agree that the Bible prophecy reveals that not all humans will come to repentance and be saved and that some shall be cast into the Eternal lake of fire on the day of the final judgement..

Therefore this word should only indicates the good desire/ intentions of God towards men.. It is not indicating something that God will cause all to come to Repentance or that God will see to it that now one perishes in the eternal lake of fire..

Rom 9:21 - Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour , and another unto dishonour?

Ahh but don't you see in this analogy that the clay already exists.. Before God decides to mold one lump into a vessel of honor and another he uses as a vessel of dishonor.. In the Exodus Pharaoh was like a lump of clay but a lump of clay that hardened his heart in rebellion against God and refused the call of Moses to let his people go twice before God ensured that Pharaohs heart remained hardened until God had performed all the great signs to make sure the world know that it was indeed God freeing the Hebrews from bondage in Egypt..

So some clay / people will be accepting of the will of God and God knows that before hand ( since the foundation of the world) and He molds them into vessels of honor by the moving of His Holy Spirit.. While other lumps of clay / people will be rejecting of the will of God and God knows that before hand ( since the foundation of the world ) and gives them over to debased minds, deception and delusions because they are rejecting the Love of the truth that would save them..

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Well God reveals His will in another verse lets read it..

2 Peter 3: KJV
" {9} The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

Now as with the former verse we have discussed with the words should in them this verse also uses the word should twice.. Now i believe the we agree that the Bible prophecy reveals that not all humans will come to repentance and be saved and that some shall be cast into the Eternal lake of fire on the day of the final judgement..

Therefore this word should only indicates the good desire/ intentions of God towards men.. It is not indicating something that God will cause all to come to Repentance or that God will see to it that now one perishes in the eternal lake of fire..

Rom 9:21 - Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour , and another unto dishonour?

Ahh but don't you see in this analogy that the clay already exists.. Before God decides to mold one lump into a vessel of honor and another he uses as a vessel of dishonor.. In the Exodus Pharaoh was like a lump of clay but a lump of clay that hardened his heart in rebellion against God and refused the call of Moses to let his people go twice before God ensured that Pharaohs heart remained hardened until God had performed all the great signs to make sure the world know that it was indeed God freeing the Hebrews from bondage in Egypt..

So some clay / people will be accepting of the will of God and God knows that before hand ( since the foundation of the world) and He molds them into vessels of honor by the moving of His Holy Spirit.. While other lumps of clay / people will be rejecting of the will of God and God knows that before hand ( since the foundation of the world ) and gives them over to debased minds, deception and delusions because they are rejecting the Love of the truth that would save them..

Adstar, Thank you for corresponding with me in a civil tone. I have had in the past, people who have not been civil in their response to how I interpret the doctrine of Christ. I pray that I never come across as harsh and rude with by defense of the doctrine. I struggled with scriptures that seemingly contradicted each other until the age of 62. I am 84 now. I do believe that the only way that a person can see any truth in the scriptures is if the Holy Spirit within the person reveals the understanding of the truth to them, after they have denied their ability, of their own intellect, to understand. That said, I do not expect you to accept my views, just because of me stating them. In the event of Pharaoh, was it not God that hardened Pharaoh's heart, instead of Pharaoh hardening his own heart? Does your statement "Some people will be accepting of the will of God and God knows that before hand" contradict the scripture in Psalms 53:2-3? In reference to 2 Pet 3:9 - To determine who Peter is talking to, we have to look at 2 Pet 3:1, which is "to them that have obtained like precious faith". Peter even includes himself by using the word "us-ward". Peter is telling them that even though we have been saved (delivered) eternally, we still at times backslide and commit sins that can separate us from our fellowship with god, (perish), and that we should repent. This disobedience to God does not cause us to lose our eternal deliverance, but our fellowship with God until we repent. There is a deliverance (salvation = Greek translation, deliverance) here in time when we repent.

 

[Adstar]

In the event of Pharaoh, was it not God that hardened Pharaoh's heart, instead of Pharaoh hardening his own heart?

God told Moses He would harden Pharaoh's heart..

Exodus 4: KJV
21 "And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go."

And yes indeed God did harden Pharaohs heart.. But He did not harden it right away.. Please take the time to read the account.

Exodus 8: KJV
12"And Moses and Aaron went out from Pharaoh: and Moses cried unto the LORD because of the frogs which he had brought against Pharaoh. {13} And the LORD did according to the word of Moses; and the frogs died out of the houses, out of the villages, and out of the fields. {14} And they gathered them together upon heaps: and the land stank. {15} But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said."

And again::

Exodus 9: KJV
34 "And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants."

It was only during the latter stages of the plagues that God took control of Pharaohs heart to keep it hardened. This following verse reveals when God intervened to ensure Pharaohs heart remained hard..

Exodus 10: KJV
1 "And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him:"

"Some people will be accepting of the will of God and God knows that before hand" contradict the scripture in Psalms 53:2-3?

Of course the Holy Spirit must act upon humans to bring them to the point of acceptance or rejection.. So yeah without Gods intervention / input no one would be saved. No one would gain understanding.. But God foreknows who will respond positively to His will and who will be stiff necked against His gift of salvation.. Some will embrace the love of the truth when they hear it and some in false religion will think it evil ( a sumblingblock ) and some unbelievers ( atheists ) will mock it as foolishness.. God foreknows since the foundation of the world who would embrace the love of the truth and who would not..

1 Corinthians 1: KJV
23 "But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;"

Peter is telling them that even though we have been saved (delivered) eternally, we still at times backslide and commit sins that can separate us from our fellowship with god, (perish), and that we should repent. This disobedience to God does not cause us to lose our eternal deliverance, but our fellowship with God until we repent. There is a deliverance (salvation = Greek translation, deliverance) here in time when we repent.

I agree with the above... Not sure why you bring it up.. But i have no disagreement with what you have written here..

I also agree with you that it is the Holy Spirit that moves people to gain greater knowledge of salvation.. It is good for Christians to pray to God for such understanding and to pray that other Brothers and Sisters in Christ are blessed with it also..

I am off to bed now.. It's pretty late here in Australia..

 

[ForestGreenCook]

God told Moses He would harden Pharaoh's heart..

Exodus 4: KJV
21 "And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go."

And yes indeed God did harden Pharaohs heart.. But He did not harden it right away.. Please take the time to read the account.

Exodus 8: KJV
12"And Moses and Aaron went out from Pharaoh: and Moses cried unto the LORD because of the frogs which he had brought against Pharaoh. {13} And the LORD did according to the word of Moses; and the frogs died out of the houses, out of the villages, and out of the fields. {14} And they gathered them together upon heaps: and the land stank. {15} But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said."

And again::

Exodus 9: KJV
34 "And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants."

It was only during the latter stages of the plagues that God took control of Pharaohs heart to keep it hardened. This following verse reveals when God intervened to ensure Pharaohs heart remained hard..

Exodus 10: KJV
1 "And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him:"



Of course the Holy Spirit must act upon humans to bring them to the point of acceptance or rejection.. So yeah without Gods intervention / input no one would be saved. No one would gain understanding.. But God foreknows who will respond positively to His will and who will be stiff necked against His gift of salvation.. Some will embrace the love of the truth when they hear it and some in false religion will think it evil ( a sumblingblock ) and some unbelievers ( atheists ) will mock it as foolishness.. God foreknows since the foundation of the world who would embrace the love of the truth and who would not..

1 Corinthians 1: KJV
23 "But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;"



I agree with the above... Not sure why you bring it up.. But i have no disagreement with what you have written here..

I also agree with you that it is the Holy Spirit that moves people to gain greater knowledge of salvation.. It is good for Christians to pray to God for such understanding and to pray that other Brothers and Sisters in Christ are blessed with it also..

I am off to bed now.. It's pretty late here in Australia..

Thank you for your comments. Yes, I agree that we should pray that the Holy Spirit within each of God's children would show our brothers and sisters who are going about trying to establish their own righteousness by the works of the law and come unto the knowledge that the only righteousness that they have is the imputed righteousness of Christ given to them when they were born of the Spirit. In reference to your statement; "The Holy Spirit must act upon humans to bring them to the point of acceptance, or rejection". 1 Cor 2:14 says that the natural man, (without having already been born of the Holy Spirit), cannot discern (accept) things that are of a spiritual nature. Eph 2 explains that we were all at one time, void of the Holy Spirit, and dead (not able to understand) spiritual things until, in verse 5 God puts the Holy Spirit within the natural (dead) man to make him alive with Christ It is then that we are able to accept or reject spiritual things. Most of God's elect children are going about trying to establish their own righteousness by their works. They are saved (delivered) eternally, but are in need of a deliverance (salvation) here in time from their lack of knowledge of what Christ has accomplished for them. This is why the apostles were instructed to go preach to the LOST SHEEP (God's eternally saved people) of the house of Israel. God changed Jacob's name to be called Israel (Gen 32:28) Jacob is representative of God's elect people that God choose before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4). Most of the time when the scriptures refer to Israel it is talking about God's elect children.

 

[Adstar]

Thank you for your comments. Yes, I agree that we should pray that the Holy Spirit within each of God's children would show our brothers and sisters who are going about trying to establish their own righteousness by the works of the law and come unto the knowledge that the only righteousness that they have is the imputed righteousness of Christ given to them when they were born of the Spirit. In reference to your statement; "The Holy Spirit must act upon humans to bring them to the point of acceptance, or rejection". 1 Cor 2:14 says that the natural man, (without having already been born of the Holy Spirit), cannot discern (accept) things that are of a spiritual nature. Eph 2 explains that we were all at one time, void of the Holy Spirit, and dead (not able to understand) spiritual things until, in verse 5 God puts the Holy Spirit within the natural (dead) man to make him alive with Christ It is then that we are able to accept or reject spiritual things.

Well from reading this it seems to me you believe in a two stages..
1) Totally in the dark without the Holy Spirit..
2) One is indwelled by the Holy Spirit and is born of the Spirit..

I see the things in three stages
1) Totally in the dark without the Holy Spirit..
2) Transition period of the Holy Spirit bringing conviction upon the person and moving them towards the point of them responding to the Truth of God. The Holy Spirit works on the individual..
3) The Indwelling of the Holy Spirit when a person accepts the Way of salvation and is born of the Holy Spirit..

Most of God's elect children are going about trying to establish their own righteousness by their works. They are saved (delivered) eternally, but are in need of a deliverance (salvation) here in time from their lack of knowledge of what Christ has accomplished for them.

This is probably the biggest religion in the world posing as Christianity.. Works salvation believers have not fully accepted the Way of salvation by the Atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ.. So to me they are not Christian.. I do not look upon these people as being saved ( delivered ) eternally.. I see these people as being the people who Jesus speaks of in the following scriptures::

Matthew 7: KJV
21 "¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. {22} Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? {23} And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

So i do not believe that anyone going about trying to establish their own righteousness is saved because they have not accepted that the righteousness of Jesus imputed to them is enough to save them..

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Well from reading this it seems to me you believe in a two stages..
1) Totally in the dark without the Holy Spirit..
2) One is indwelled by the Holy Spirit and is born of the Spirit..

I see the things in three stages
1) Totally in the dark without the Holy Spirit..
2) Transition period of the Holy Spirit bringing conviction upon the person and moving them towards the point of them responding to the Truth of God. The Holy Spirit works on the individual..
3) The Indwelling of the Holy Spirit when a person accepts the Way of salvation and is born of the Holy Spirit..



This is probably the biggest religion in the world posing as Christianity.. Works salvation believers have not fully accepted the Way of salvation by the Atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ.. So to me they are not Christian.. I do not look upon these people as being saved ( delivered ) eternally.. I see these people as being the people who Jesus speaks of in the following scriptures::

Matthew 7: KJV
21 "¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. {22} Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? {23} And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

So i do not believe that anyone going about trying to establish their own righteousness is saved because they have not accepted that the righteousness of Jesus imputed to them is enough to save them..

I am having trouble understanding your number 2 stage. Can you give me some scriptures explaining the TRANSITION PERIOD of the Holy Spirit upon the natural man described in 1 Cor 2:14? I see the natural man as being totally in the dark about spiritual things up until the time that God (Eph 2:5) puts the Holy Spirit within the spiritually dead person by the new birth. If a person does the works that God instructs us to do, in order to obtain eternal salvation, is not that, then, eternal salvation, by the works of man? There seems to be too many contradictions with this train of thought. Can you enlighten me?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Well from reading this it seems to me you believe in a two stages..
1) Totally in the dark without the Holy Spirit..
2) One is indwelled by the Holy Spirit and is born of the Spirit..

I see the things in three stages
1) Totally in the dark without the Holy Spirit..
2) Transition period of the Holy Spirit bringing conviction upon the person and moving them towards the point of them responding to the Truth of God. The Holy Spirit works on the individual..
3) The Indwelling of the Holy Spirit when a person accepts the Way of salvation and is born of the Holy Spirit..



This is probably the biggest religion in the world posing as Christianity.. Works salvation believers have not fully accepted the Way of salvation by the Atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ.. So to me they are not Christian.. I do not look upon these people as being saved ( delivered ) eternally.. I see these people as being the people who Jesus speaks of in the following scriptures::

Matthew 7: KJV
21 "¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. {22} Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? {23} And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

So i do not believe that anyone going about trying to establish their own righteousness is saved because they have not accepted that the righteousness of Jesus imputed to them is enough to save them..

In Matt 7, I equate "the kingdom of heaven" as being the same as Christ's kingdom (his visible church here on earth) in which we must do some works or actions to enter into.

 

[Adstar]

I am having trouble understanding your number 2 stage. Can you give me some scriptures explaining the TRANSITION PERIOD of the Holy Spirit upon the natural man described in 1 Cor 2:14? I see the natural man as being totally in the dark about spiritual things up until the time that God (Eph 2:5) puts the Holy Spirit within the spiritually dead person by the new birth. If a person does the works that God instructs us to do, in order to obtain eternal salvation, is not that, then, eternal salvation, by the works of man? There seems to be too many contradictions with this train of thought. Can you enlighten me?

I believe we recieve the Holy Spirit at the moment of salvation.. The Holy Spirit does not make it's home an unholy temple.. Before the Holy Spirit dwells in us we must be justified made Holy by the Atoning blood of the LORD Jesus Christ.. We must accept His will and way of salvation.. The moment we do is the moment the Holy Spirit enters into us and makes us His temple..

In the book of Acts on the day of Penticost the Apostles recieved the Holy Spirit.. Peter and the other apostles then spoke in tongues to the crowd of diverse people and all of them heard him in their own languages.. Peter then when on to prech the Gospel and during this preaching many in the crowd felt the conviction of the Holy Spirit.. I could post the entire episode but that would make this a mega post so i will cut it down a bit to the relevant portion of scripture ...We read::

Acts 2: KJV
32 "This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. {33} Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. {34} For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, {35} Until I make thy foes thy footstool. {36} Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. {37} ¶ Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? {38} Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

Note how their consciences where convicted ( pricked in their heart ) before they had recieved the Holy Spirit.. See how they needed to repent Before they could receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.. During this time these men where in the stage 2 that i put forward when they where being convicted by the Holy Spirit but had not yet recieved the Holy Spirit within,, to be reborn in the Spirit..

 

[Adstar]

In Matt 7, I equate "the kingdom of heaven" as being the same as Christ's kingdom (his visible church here on earth) in which we must do some works or actions to enter into.

Once a person says we MUST do works to enter into the Eternal Kingdom of God. They have added Works as a MUST do to be saved.. They no longer believe that the Atonement that Jesus secured by His death on the cross is sufficient enough to attain salvation for them... This is Works salvation..

I believe that the Atonement Jesus secured by His death on the cross is 100% sufficient to secure for me eternal salvation.. No works that i do or i fail to do plays any role in securing for me salvation..

Now if i do more works i will receive greater rewards, i will be called great in the Kingdom of God in eternity and if i do less works i will receive less rewards, i will be called least in the Kingdom of God.. But i will still be saved. My eternal place is assured if i accept it as the loving gift that Jesus secured it for me as.. Once i have the mindset that i am going to pay for it with my ( as filthy rags ) righteousness then i have rejected the gift of God as a gift and have tried to pay for it.. We must accept His salvation as a gift not as a debt..

 

[Adstar]

Anyways it is 1:40 am here so it is way past my bed time.. If God is willing i will be back tomorrow,, GBU all

 

[ForestGreenCook]

I believe we recieve the Holy Spirit at the moment of salvation.. The Holy Spirit does not make it's home an unholy temple.. Before the Holy Spirit dwells in us we must be justified made Holy by the Atoning blood of the LORD Jesus Christ.. We must accept His will and way of salvation.. The moment we do is the moment the Holy Spirit enters into us and makes us His temple..

In the book of Acts on the day of Penticost the Apostles recieved the Holy Spirit.. Peter and the other apostles then spoke in tongues to the crowd of diverse people and all of them heard him in their own languages.. Peter then when on to prech the Gospel and during this preaching many in the crowd felt the conviction of the Holy Spirit.. I could post the entire episode but that would make this a mega post so i will cut it down a bit to the relevant portion of scripture ...We read::

Acts 2: KJV
32 "This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. {33} Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. {34} For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, {35} Until I make thy foes thy footstool. {36} Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. {37} ¶ Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? {38} Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

Note how their consciences where convicted ( pricked in their heart ) before they had recieved the Holy Spirit.. See how they needed to repent Before they could receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.. During this time these men where in the stage 2 that i put forward when they where being convicted by the Holy Spirit but had not yet recieved the Holy Spirit within,, to be reborn in the Spirit..

I know that I must seem to be spiritually blind to you, but I am still having trouble understanding how the Holy Spirit can make the natural man described in 1 Cor 2:14 understand and discern spiritually what Peter preached about Jesus being both Lord and Christ. Being "pricked in the heart", to me, would mean that God would have already taken out his heart of stone and given him a heart of flesh (Eze 36:26) which I believe to be the new birth. The heart of stone can not be pricked to feel guilty of breaking a spiritual law. Can you explain how that you interpret 1 Cor 2:14? When we read the account of Steven being stoned to death, it states that the hearers were "cut to the heart" and they had a whole different attitude about what Steven had said. Peter was inviting these guilt ridden born again children of God to be baptized into the church, Christs kingdom here on earth.

 

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I know that I must seem to be spiritually blind to you, but I am still having trouble understanding how the Holy Spirit can make the natural man described in 1 Cor 2:14 understand and discern spiritually what Peter preached about Jesus being both Lord and Christ. Being "pricked in the heart", to me, would mean that God would have already taken out his heart of stone and given him a heart of flesh (Eze 36:26) which I believe to be the new birth. The heart of stone can not be pricked to feel guilty of breaking a spiritual law. Can you explain how that you interpret 1 Cor 2:14? When we read the account of Steven being stoned to death, it states that the hearers were "cut to the heart" and they had a whole different attitude about what Steven had said. Peter was inviting these guilt ridden born again children of God to be baptized into the church, Christs kingdom here on earth.

The execution of Steven proves that the conviction of the Holy Spirit can be resisted..

One person reacts with remorse and contrition when convicted..

Another person reacts with anger and violence when convicted..

Isaiah 66: KJV
2 "For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word."

 

[ForestGreenCook]

I believe we recieve the Holy Spirit at the moment of salvation.. The Holy Spirit does not make it's home an unholy temple.. Before the Holy Spirit dwells in us we must be justified made Holy by the Atoning blood of the LORD Jesus Christ.. We must accept His will and way of salvation.. The moment we do is the moment the Holy Spirit enters into us and makes us His temple..

In the book of Acts on the day of Penticost the Apostles recieved the Holy Spirit.. Peter and the other apostles then spoke in tongues to the crowd of diverse people and all of them heard him in their own languages.. Peter then when on to prech the Gospel and during this preaching many in the crowd felt the conviction of the Holy Spirit.. I could post the entire episode but that would make this a mega post so i will cut it down a bit to the relevant portion of scripture ...We read::

Acts 2: KJV
32 "This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. {33} Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. {34} For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, {35} Until I make thy foes thy footstool. {36} Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. {37} ¶ Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? {38} Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

Note how their consciences where convicted ( pricked in their heart ) before they had recieved the Holy Spirit.. See how they needed to repent Before they could receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.. During this time these men where in the stage 2 that i put forward when they where being convicted by the Holy Spirit but had not yet recieved the Holy Spirit within,, to be reborn in the Spirit..

Salvation as interpreted by Greek translation = a deliverance. After we have already been delivered to an everlasting life eternally, which was only for those that God gave to Jesus and accomplished on the cross as an offering to God, for God's acceptance, and not to man, for man's acceptance, we are also delivered (saved) here in time when we repent and become a member of Christ's church. If we are not careful we can tend to believe our actions (works) save us eternally by not separating the scriptures that talk about salvation (deliverance) from an eternal deliverance and a timely deliverance we receive here in this present time. To my understanding of the scriptures, the natural man, until God gives him a new heart in regeneration can not repent of breaking a spiritual law that he cannot discern. Each time that a born again child of God repents, he receives a deliverance (salvation) here in time.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

The execution of Steven proves that the conviction of the Holy Spirit can be resisted..

One person reacts with remorse and contrition when convicted..

Another person reacts with anger and violence when convicted..

Isaiah 66: KJV
2 "For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word."

To my understanding, the difference in the way they reacted was due to their heart condition. One group God had replaced their heart from stone to flesh in regeneration. The other group still have the heart of stone which cannot be pricked (made to feel guilty of breaking a spiritual law that they cannot discern). In my first post I quoted from Psalms 73 where David states that God does not chasten (convict) those that he does not love, because he does chasten (convict) those that he loves, such as those in Acts 7.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

The execution of Steven proves that the conviction of the Holy Spirit can be resisted..

One person reacts with remorse and contrition when convicted..

Another person reacts with anger and violence when convicted..

Isaiah 66: KJV
2 "For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word."

The man who has a poor and contrite spirit has already been regenerated and given a new heart.

 

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Salvation as interpreted by Greek translation = a deliverance. After we have already been delivered to an everlasting life eternally, which was only for those that God gave to Jesus and accomplished on the cross as an offering to God, for God's acceptance, and not to man, for man's acceptance, we are also delivered (saved) here in time when we repent and become a member of Christ's church.

Totally lost me with the above.. This sentence is just way to long with way too many twists and turns..

If we are not careful we can tend to believe our actions (works) save us eternally by not separating the scriptures that talk about salvation (deliverance) from an eternal deliverance and a timely deliverance we receive here in this present time. To my understanding of the scriptures, the natural man, until God gives him a new heart in regeneration can not repent of breaking a spiritual law that he cannot discern. Each time that a born again child of God repents, he receives a deliverance (salvation) here in time.

Well i think i understand the above which is simply you restating a belief you have stated before in this thread.. So i am not sure if there is a point in me stating my belief again?