A NON-CHARISMATIC UNDERSTANDING OF TONGUES

[Dino246]

How do yo see this then?

"Wherefore languages are for a SIGN, not to them that believe, but to them that believe NOT..." (I Cor. 14:22.)

I'm not entirely sure what you're asking. If you're asking, who are those who "believe NOT...", I see it as meaning those who don't believe that Jesus is the Messiah.

If you're asking, what about tongues among those who are all believers, I look at it this way:

"Tongues are a sign for unbelievers." This is an affirmative statement, though not necessarily an exclusive statement. Many who hold that tongues are not for today, or that tongues today are not the same as then, hold it as an exclusive statement meaning "There is absolutely no purpose for tongues other than for a sign to unbelievers, and that tongues are not given to be used when there are no unbelievers present." While this is certainly a possible and even plausible interpretation, it is certainly not the only possible or plausible interpretation.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

I neither think it against the Holy Spirit, nor something the speaker is making up.

I think it is apart from this, it is a phenomena of the brain, that is the ecstatic utterances.

so if you think it is a phenomena of the brain (as proposed by kavik), why do you think it happens?

see, those of us who believe and practice scripture do not support what you state nor do we support the research of one kavik who is apparently into Eastern mysticism and is not saved

so can you tell us why you agree with what he says (he is not the first to state this...far from it) and do you think Christians in the 1st C also had this ...er.....glitch of the brain...like a hiccup from reality

would like to know your thought process behind this one if you care to share.

 

[UnderGrace]

so if you think it is a phenomena of the brain (as proposed by kavik), why do you think it happens?

see, those of us who believe and practice scripture do not support what you state nor do we support the research of one kavik who is apparently into Eastern mysticism and is not saved

so can you tell us why you agree with what he says (he is not the first to state this...far from it) and do you think Christians in the 1st C also had this ...er.....glitch of the brain...like a hiccup from reality

would like to know your thought process behind this one if you care to share.

Are we talking about "ecstatic" or angelic language?

 

[UnderGrace]

What are the other purposes then?

I'm not entirely sure what you're asking. If you're asking, who are those who "believe NOT...", I see it as meaning those who don't believe that Jesus is the Messiah.

If you're asking, what about tongues among those who are all believers, I look at it this way:

"Tongues are a sign for unbelievers." This is an affirmative statement, though not necessarily an exclusive statement. Many who hold that tongues are not for today, or that tongues today are not the same as then, hold it as an exclusive statement meaning "There is absolutely no purpose for tongues other than for a sign to unbelievers, and that tongues are not given to be used when there are no unbelievers present." While this is certainly a possible and even plausible interpretation, it is certainly not the only possible or plausible interpretation.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

The you viciously Criticised my Study without even thoroughly reading it.

It is in Segment 2, 5th and 6th Paragraph. Paragraph 4 has part of the paragraph before and after the long list of Problems mention in the Corinthian Church is IN THE MIDDLE.

EVERY SINGLE EXAMPLE IN THE BIBLE WITH TONGUES SPEAKING, had Unbelieving Jews HEARING the Mighty Works of GOD. That includes Cornelius's house. The UNBELIEVING JEWS were the JEWISH BELIEVERS that came along with Peter. AT THAT TIME, they did not believe that GOD could save Gentiles, in the same way HE DID JEWS. Remember in the TEMPLE the Gentiles could not go any further into the TEMPLE than the Court of the GENTILES.


I am calm, the ONLY REASON that I do not want to debate this is study with YOU, this study was started in the early 80's, when my wife's sister's thought I led her astray, because she used to speaking in tongues, and then SHE HERSELF had the Holy Spirit convince it was all a COUNTERFEIT. Then I had several people want to DEBATE me via LETTERS, and then I got a computer in 1995, one at a time, I put it on three different WEBSITES, and HUNDRED's of people want to debate men. I have been CALLED VICIOUS NAMES because I Did a NON- Charismatic Understanding On Tongues. Even my sister-inlaws YELLED at me across the Dinner Table. I mean the VICIOUS ATTACKS ALWAYS CONTINUED, AND YOURS WAS NOT THE WORSE. I know EVERYTHING YOU WILL SAY want to say, I KNOW YOUR ARGUMENTS BY HEART, because I HAVE HEARD THEM ALL, OVER, and OVER, and OVER , and OVER again. I literally KNOW I have not heard any NEW ARGUMENT IN over 20 years. ALL TRYING TO CONVINCE ME THEY Have the REAL GIFT, and IT IS ONLY A COUNTERFEIT of what the APOSTLES DID. There is NOTHING TO DEBATE, because I believe 100%, the TRUE Gift of Tongues is way the Holy Spirit has had me write it. I am TIRED OF DISCUSSING TONGUES.

what you say regarding examples in scripture is simply not so

I think you know better. Paul's instructions regarding the misuse of tongues was to converts, and not pagans

you are free to believe as you do, however leaving out scripture that does not support your opinion, and saying there is no scripture that does not support such opinion, is not really beneficial nor is it truthful. right?

I have seen plenty of things I question as to their validity on both sides. people do not have or do not use discernment and become utterly convinced of something being true that is not true

IMO, that works both ways

frankly, if I would really and truly know that I was cursing God I would stop right away

but God, in His kindness has also given me the ability to interpret and I could not think of such phrases with praise to Him on my own

I have also been shown things by the Holy Spirit that I did not know were in scripture ... along with the place to find them...and always it is as the Holy Spirit showed me

I have a deep love for God that I could not have with my own strength and this is all the side effects of both praying and singing in tongues. on occasion I have had something to say to a congregation, but always in English, with no need to interpret but definitely in the power of the Holy Spirit

you can negate or make fun of all I have said, but it is hardly vicious but beyond your understanding is possible

to be so utterly convinced that anyone who has a different experience than you do is either demonic or perhaps attacking you viciously is more your problem than anyone else's

I don't agree with shouting at each other about whether or not tongues is genuine. see, the thing is, we are also each responsible for out maturity in the Lord and some people make speak in tongues but have not got past that point. that is only the beginning and not an end in itself

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Are we talking about "ecstatic" or angelic language?

I'm talking about what YOU were talking about LOL!

you tell me...

 

[UnderGrace]

The only possible way to support that "ecstatic" speech is to language to support that it is an angelic language.

Neuro-linguitics has made a good case that ecstatic speech is not related to "language" in terms as to how a language is defined at its structural level.

so if you think it is a phenomena of the brain (as proposed by kavik), why do you think it happens?

see, those of us who believe and practice scripture do not support what you state nor do we support the research of one kavik who is apparently into Eastern mysticism and is not saved

so can you tell us why you agree with what he says (he is not the first to state this...far from it) and do you think Christians in the 1st C also had this ...er.....glitch of the brain...like a hiccup from reality

would like to know your thought process behind this one if you care to share.

 

[UnderGrace]

I'm talking about what YOU were talking about LOL!

you tell me...

Well I only know what people have told me on here, CC, over the years that it is an "angelic language"

Some have told me it is a private prayer language.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

I'm not entirely sure what you're asking. If you're asking, who are those who "believe NOT...", I see it as meaning those who don't believe that Jesus is the Messiah.

If you're asking, what about tongues among those who are all believers, I look at it this way:

"Tongues are a sign for unbelievers." This is an affirmative statement, though not necessarily an exclusive statement. Many who hold that tongues are not for today, or that tongues today are not the same as then, hold it as an exclusive statement meaning "There is absolutely no purpose for tongues other than for a sign to unbelievers, and that tongues are not given to be used when there are no unbelievers present." While this is certainly a possible and even plausible interpretation, it is certainly not the only possible or plausible interpretation.

the answer is actually in Paul's instructions to the Corinthians. I Corinthians 14 includes the list of gifts and the fact there is more than one kind of tongue and the fact that some individuals will be able to have the gift of different kinds of tongues

the problem with the Corinthian church was there misuse of the gift of speaking in tongues....goes on alot today still

22Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers, but for unbelievers. Prophecy, however, is for believers, not for unbelievers.
23So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who are uninstructed or some unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your minds? 24But if an unbeliever or uninstructed person comes in while everyone is prophesying, he will be convicted and called to account by all,25and the secrets of his heart will be made clear. So he will fall facedown and worship God, proclaiming, “God is truly among you!”

we need to remember that tongues have a double reason.

1, a sign to unbelievers and

2. they are a gift to he believer, can be interpreted and there are different kinds given to some individuals

tongues can be prophetic concerning unbelievers...the Holy Spirit knows what is in a person's heart. sometimes, when witnessing or speaking with an unsaved person...or even a saved person needing help...praying quietly in the spirit can really help with a response since the Spirit of God knows

you prob know all this but anyway there it is again

 

[Dino246]

What are the other purposes then?

Speaking to God (1 Cor 14:2); building oneself up in the faith (1 Cor 14:3; Jude 20); and intercession when we aren't sure what to pray (1 Cor 14:14; Romans 8:26). Without an interpreter, the speaker is to keep to him- or herself. With interpretation, the purpose can be anything consistent with God's will. In Acts 2 the purpose was evangelistic in nature. In both Acts 10 and 19, the messages spoken in tongues weren't interpreted (or at least the interpretation wasn't recorded) so we simply don't know for sure, but we can be reasonably confident that it was something other than evangelism.

 

[UnderGrace]

2. they are a gift to he believer, can be interpreted and there are different kinds given to some individuals

But why are they unintelligible, therefore requiring an interpreter?

 

[UnderGrace]

Speaking to God (1 Cor 14:2); building oneself up in the faith (1 Cor 14:3; Jude 20); and intercession when we aren't sure what to pray (1 Cor 14:14; Romans 8:26). Without an interpreter, the speaker is to keep to him- or herself. With interpretation, the purpose can be anything consistent with God's will. In Acts 2 the purpose was evangelistic in nature. In both Acts 10 and 19, the messages spoken in tongues weren't interpreted (or at least the interpretation wasn't recorded) so we simply don't know for sure, but we can be reasonably confident that it was something other than evangelism.

Is this an angelic language?

 

[7seasrekeyed]

The only possible way to support that "ecstatic" speech is to language to support that it is an angelic language.

Neuro-linguitics has made a good case that ecstatic speech is not related to "language" in terms as to how a language is defined at its structural level.

I'm not a stranger to neuro science but it is not the Holy Spirit. there is actually no way it can be proven that 'tongues' are not a language that is structured in a way different from our modern languages. when you say 'the only possible way' it is a human understanding and reasonably so.

however, God is not limited by human understanding and who knows or who can say what those tongues are other than that the Spirit of God gives utterance...to use a direct quote from scripture

can we prove God exists? has anyone proven beyond any doubt that God exists or do we believe and are saved through faith in what we have heard? I think you know the answer to that one.

it is all by faith...as Hebrews tells us. Abraham was an idol worshiper as far as we can tell and yet believed when God revealed Himself

I have had God reveal Himself and I know He is real...have I seen Him? no...no one has seen God. but He has revealed Himself through the senses He created in us human beings...I have felt His presence, I have literally heard audible singing as though a heavenly choir, I have had some extraordinary things happen with answer to prayer. I pray in tongues...I basically understand what the prayer is about...but not always but sometimes I see it down the road

that is really all we have. God is Spirit...not one of many...but the only One and He has revealed Himself to those who seek after Him

we don't walk by scientific experiments or what we see...according to scripture we walk according to what we have not seen and Jesus says we are blessed for so doing!

Well I only know what people have told me on here, CC, over the years that it is an "angelic language"

Some have told me it is a private prayer language.

I could not say what is or is not an angelic language...but I do know I do not always seem to be praying the same language..

the Bible does not directly call tongues a private prayer language. Paul instructs the use of tongues in prayer when he states he will pray with both his own understanding and with his spirit...meaning his spirit praying by the Holy Spirit. people here who pray in tongues know what I am explaining

if you read I Corinthians you will find what I am talking about

and I have read and or heard all the objections with regards to praying in the spirit being something other than what I just stated

as I have said quite a few times in this forum, I grew up with the teaching that tongues should be avoided at all costs but here I am anyway

 

[UnderGrace]

Well I understand better.

I'm not a stranger to neuro science but it is not the Holy Spirit. there is actually no way it can be proven that 'tongues' are not a language that is structured in a way different from our modern languages. when you say 'the only possible way' it is a human understanding and reasonably so.

however, God is not limited by human understanding and who knows or who can say what those tongues are other than that the Spirit of God gives utterance...to use a direct quote from scripture

can we prove God exists? has anyone proven beyond any doubt that God exists or do we believe and are saved through faith in what we have heard? I think you know the answer to that one.

it is all by faith...as Hebrews tells us. Abraham was an idol worshiper as far as we can tell and yet believed when God revealed Himself

I have had God reveal Himself and I know He is real...have I seen Him? no...no one has seen God. but He has revealed Himself through the senses He created in us human beings...I have felt His presence, I have literally heard audible singing as though a heavenly choir, I have had some extraordinary things happen with answer to prayer. I pray in tongues...I basically understand what the prayer is about...but not always but sometimes I see it down the road

that is really all we have. God is Spirit...not one of many...but the only One and He has revealed Himself to those who seek after Him

we don't walk by scientific experiments or what we see...according to scripture we walk according to what we have not seen and Jesus says we are blessed for so doing!



I could not say what is or is not an angelic language...but I do know I do not always seem to be praying the same language..

the Bible does not directly call tongues a private prayer language. Paul instructs the use of tongues in prayer when he states he will pray with both his own understanding and with his spirit...meaning his spirit praying by the Holy Spirit. people here who pray in tongues know what I am explaining

if you read I Corinthians you will find what I am talking about

and I have read and or heard all the objections with regards to praying in the spirit being something other than what I just stated

as I have said quite a few times in this forum, I grew up with the teaching that tongues should be avoided at all costs but here I am anyway

 

[VCO]

If you think tongues was only for unbelieving Jews you are confused, in a BIG way.

It was to confirm to Unbelieving Jews that the NEW WORDs that the Apostles were Teaching were as much the WORD OF GOD and those Words in the Old Testament, for the JEWS REQUIRE A SIGN.


1 Corinthians 14:21-22 (NIV)
21 In the Law it is written: "Through men of strange tongues and through the lips of foreigners I will speak to this people, but even then they will not listen to me," says the Lord.
22 Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is for believers, not for unbelievers.

Mark 16:20 (NIV)
20 Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them
and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it.


As far as I am concerned, tongues in the Charismatic Church and Pentecostal Churches, in 1906, fell for a man made COUNTERFEIT, after it CEASED after the NEW TESTAMENT WORDS were validated by the APOSTLES to ENOUGH JEWS.


Matthew 16:4 (ESV)
4 An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of Jonah.” So he left them and departed.


EVERY COMMENT that you can make, can be answered by my 9 Segment Study.

I have NO INTEREST in Discussing this, or Debating it with anybody anymore.

READ THE STUDY, if you want to KNOW WHAT I ABSOLUTELY BELIEVE and has been confirmed in my heart by the Holy Spirit.

IT IS A SETTLED ISSUE FOR ME and most other Non-Charismatics, like the expression goes: You are whipping a dead horse.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

But why are they unintelligible, therefore requiring an interpreter?

apparently this is also a matter of faith...I don't need an interpreter...but I will not interpret for another either

I didn't make the gifts and I cannot say I understand why they are as they are. I can state that scripture states it is God Himself who gives them AT HIS DISCRETION. not ours. painfully aware of the abuse, but teachers who actually follow the instructions seem to be few and far between

maybe I am such a stickler for the instructions because of my background, but no meeting should be anything goes..that, IMO, is not the Holy Spirit but rather the playground for deception..of which there is sadly plenty among Christians

the order is that only one at time should speak and one should interpret

27If anyone speaks in a tongue, two, or at most three, should speak in turn, and someone must interpret. 28But if there is no interpreter, he should remain silent in the church and speak only to himself and God.

however this is the public use of tongues...you can pray silently as is indicated above...speak only to yourself and to God

sure it all sounds strange if you are not taught right or approach with the idea it is demonic...but there it is anyway

I cannot tell you why God chose to do it the way He does it. Paul speaks of speaking mysteries in tongues...can't pin that down either but it is real

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Well I understand better.

I don't understand how you mean that

are you saying you have a different understanding?

 

[Didymous]

What I don't understand is why angels would need to have a language. What I understand even less is why any of us would need to speak in an angel language. If anyone could answer these questions I would be not only grateful, but amazed.

 

[VCO]

I neither think it against the Holy Spirit, nor something the speaker is making up.

I think it is apart from this, it is a phenomena of the brain, that is the ecstatic utterances.

1 Corinthians 13:1 (NJB)
1 Though I command languages both human and angelic—if I speak without love, I am no more than a gong booming or a cymbal clashing.


No, that verse refers to the Booming Voice, Eloquence, and the Voice of Authority of ANGELS.

 

[Dino246]

Is this an angelic language?

Maybe, maybe not. The only reference to "angelic language" is in 1 Cor 13:1; I don't think that example can be used in any sort of doctrinal way regarding tongues... for or against. The immediate context just doesn't support that interpretation.