Can a person be saved if their faith is in Jesus only and not in the Cross of Calvary where the victory was won, i.e., "The Finished Work," i.e., "The Blood of Jesus?"
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
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Was Noah saved only because he built the ark?
Was Abel saved only because he offered a better offering?
Was Rahab saved only because she hid the spies?
Salvation has been through what Christ did for us from the time Adam fell.
Lev. 17: 11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it for you on the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that makes atonement by the life.
We must follow scripture when we go to Christ for salvation. We take all our sins to Him, including the sin we are not aware of, and let Christ get rid of it for us. Of we hold on to sin instead of giving it up for cleaning then Christ cannot take care of the sin we hold onto, so repentance must be part of this. We then die to our sin, it is gone, we are pure and clean. Then we live through Christ a sinless life.
This is impossible, We are in the flesh and we obey the flesh even when we don't want to. What we give to Christ for sinless living is our will. We put God's word in our minds and follow with our minds, always aware that through grace our God is a forgiving God.
This is the narrow path that leads to all joy and salvation.
Interesting, do you think the Old Testament guys, Abel, Noah, Gideon, etc had Jesus in mind, whenever they sacrifice the lamb in obedience to God? You believe they trusted in Jesus death burial and resurrection too?
"It is finished" Jesus said on the cross, the it being the anti-typical slaying of the lamb- Jesus, the lamb of God. Having faith in Jesus encompasses everything, every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God, the life and death and high priestly ministry (intercession of Christ in the heavenly sanctuary), everything.
Jesus is Lord. Jesus is God the Son. Jesus was born of a virgin. Jesus was sinless. Jesus taught the masses. Jesus worked miracles. Jesus initiated the new covenant. Jesus died to pay the penalty for our sin. Jesus rose again. Jesus is the Author of life.
The cross is not Lord. The cross is not God the Son. The cross was not born of a virgin. The cross was not sinless (or sinful, for that matter). The cross did not teach anyone. The cross did not work miracles. The cross did not initiate anything. The cross did not die for anyone. The cross did not rise again. The cross was the instrument of death.
Jesus won the victory on the cross. The cross is a historical object, and today is a metaphor for the finished work of Jesus. Don't mix them up. Don't put your faith in pieces of wood that can't hear you, can't speak to you, and can't save you. Put your faith in the Person, finished work, and promises of Jesus.
K
KnowMe
Guest
What do you think did the wood make the man or the man make the wood.
That's a very interesting question. We know that the old testament sanctuary is God's lesson book for the plan of Salvation. The outer court slaying of the spotless lamb represents the death of a substitute (Christ) and the blood is ministered through the holy place and into the most holy place. The holy place represents holy spirit living and the most holy place represents judgement. It is really interesting. Lot to learn there. As it says in Psalm 77:13 "thy way O God is in the sanctuary.." and Jesus is the way.
We had the benefit of history and of course Paul's Gospel of Grace. Thus, we can now understand the full plan of salvation, and marvel at how simple it is, we just need to put our faith in Jesus's DBR.
However those OT Saints had a much more "difficult" time to be saved. They had to display faith by doing, the moment they do the wrong things they can get punished unlike us.
That was why Paul even said in Romans 4 that King David look at us, under the new covenant, with envy. He was punished with the loss of his son when he committed adultery, no matter how many lambs he sacrificed. But he saw that Jesus sacrifice for us means we are imputed with righteousness, apart from our works. Isn't that wonderful?
And we are speaking of how God thinks not how Abel, Noah, Gideon thinks. Are you trying to say that unless they had the name of Christ the symbolism that God gave this blood means nothing?
I wonder if you have read scripture at all. How about the first chapter of Isaiah.
Christians must start thinking Spiritually, which refers to the fact that everything is furnished to us through the Cross, and is obtained by Faith and not works. Many Christians say you put too much emphasis on the Cross. I remind you that the Apostle Paul said, "We preach Christ Crucified (1 Cor. 1:23). He also said, "For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and Him Crucified (1 Cor. 2:2). Notice two subjects: Christ and the Cross. Why would the Apostle Paul say such a thing? Because that is the only way we receive victory over sin, the world, the flesh, and the Devil!
The operation of the Holy Spirit is accomplished through Faith and Grace. Romans 8:2
As I stated before, when I talk about placing your Faith in Christ, 100% understand that. When I talk about placing your Faith in the Cross, 99% on this form don’t have the foggiest idea what you are talking about. They think you are talking about a wooden beam...it is the same with most Christians.
JSM
The operation of the Holy Spirit is accomplished through Faith and Grace. Romans 8:2
As I stated before, when I talk about placing your Faith in Christ, 100% understand that. When I talk about placing your Faith in the Cross, 99% on this form don’t have the foggiest idea what you are talking about. They think you are talking about a wooden beam...it is the same with most Christians.
JSM
I am certain that God is the same today as God was at creation and God's plan of salvation was set at creation. There is nowhere in scripture that says the OT people had different requirements of "doing" than the requirements we have. If they did then we do not have a God we can depend on, God could not be trusted to control our world with love for God could change. I don't think God changed anything.
I think you are getting salvation and forgiveness for sin mixed up with the idea that sin has no earthly results, or If you steal and murder and God forgives,t means we don't have to go to jail under our earthly legal system.
I think that you are getting the idea of works mixed up. It is true that we are not so holy and perfect ever that we can have salvation and righteousness through our work. That is just out and impossible.
But to take the idea of work needed as saved people and toss it aside, that isn't possible, either. If we give our will to Christ, if we give Christ all our sin without holding on to a sin as something we like better than Christ, then we aren't saved, we can't be forgiven for something Christ does not take from us unless it is by force. If you say that a will not to sin is work, then you are dead in the water as the saying goes.
The Believer must understand that when God doesn't see the Believers heart exhibiting Faith in His beloved Son in whom He is pleased, Jesus, and the Cross of Calvary where the victory was won, we have chosen another Jesus (2 Cor. 11:4) which produces strange fire and strange incenses.
When Aaron's sons Nadab & Abihu, Priests of God, ordained of God, called by God, and anointed by God - failed to take coals of fire from the Brazen Altar (A Type of Calvary), but from another source, and put those coals of fire on the Golden Altar, which sat immediately in front of the Veil, which hid the Holy of Holies, where God dwelt between the Mercy seat and the Cherubim. They were devoured by fire from the Holy of Holies. In other words, to do such was, in effect, to bypass Calvary, which God could not tolerate.
Man can come before God only on one premise, and that is by and through the shed Blood of the Lord Jesus Christ. That and that alone, which the Brazen Altar and its Sacrifices typified, gains entrance to God in any Form. When Jesus said, “No man cometh to the Father but by Me,” He was speaking of what He would do at the Cross of Calvary, which would make all of this possible (John 14:6).
JSM
When Aaron's sons Nadab & Abihu, Priests of God, ordained of God, called by God, and anointed by God - failed to take coals of fire from the Brazen Altar (A Type of Calvary), but from another source, and put those coals of fire on the Golden Altar, which sat immediately in front of the Veil, which hid the Holy of Holies, where God dwelt between the Mercy seat and the Cherubim. They were devoured by fire from the Holy of Holies. In other words, to do such was, in effect, to bypass Calvary, which God could not tolerate.
Man can come before God only on one premise, and that is by and through the shed Blood of the Lord Jesus Christ. That and that alone, which the Brazen Altar and its Sacrifices typified, gains entrance to God in any Form. When Jesus said, “No man cometh to the Father but by Me,” He was speaking of what He would do at the Cross of Calvary, which would make all of this possible (John 14:6).
JSM
You are making 2 different points and I will address them separately. Let me address the last point first.
There are earthly consequences, horizontal ones, whenever you sin. If you steal and murder, you will go to jail and may get the death penalty, nothing to do with God.
What I am talking about are vertical consequences, from God. For David, God told him thru the prophet Nathan, that his son will die. It is God that took his son away from him. What I am saying is that, David was punished by God.
And when he saw the future, when he saw us, he was envious about us because he could see that we are living in a different covenant he had, that God will not punish us in any way, when we sin. Because someone else, Jesus took the penalty from God for our sins.
Again, let me stress this revelation will break the power of sin in all of us, not cause us to go ahead and sin.
The cross was a mystery until after the resurrection. There is no such thing as “looking forward” to the cross. Those OT saints lived by their own faith in what God’s word that He gave them at that time. Obedience was necessary but even then salvation was not obtained.
“(1490 B.C.)
LAW OF BURNT OFFERINGS
1 And t he LORD called unto Moses, and spoke unto him out of the Tabernacle of the congregation, saying (the Holy Spirit has now taken up abode in the Tabernacle, actually in the Holy of Holies, where He dwelt between the Mercy Seat and the Cherubim [I Cor. 3:16]),
2 Speak unto the Children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an Offering unto the LORD, you shall bring your Offering of the cattle, even of the herd, and of the flock. (There is no mention of any woman bringing an Offering to the Lord, as it regards the Sacrifice of an animal. This was always done by a man. Why?”
“Even though Eve sinned first, it was Adam, the fountainhead of the human race, who dragged down mankind through the Fall. Whatever happened to him would pass on to the entirety of mankind. This is the reason that the “Last Adam” was necessary [I Cor. 15:45]. As well, the Sacrificial System had been instituted immediately after the Fall [Gen., Chpt. 4]. However, it didn’t come into full bloom until the Law was given, as here noted.)
3 If his offering be a Burnt Sacrifice of the herd (a whole Burnt Offering, typifying Christ giving His all), let him offer a male without blemish (symbolic of the perfection of Christ): he shall offer it of his own voluntary will (would probably be better translated, “he shall offer it for the Lord’s acceptance”; if the Offering was accepted, so was the offerer; if the Offering was rejected, the offerer was rejected as well!) at the door of the Tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD. (The man had sinned before the Lord, so the Sacrifice must be presented before the Lord.)”
“4 And he shall put his hand upon the head of the Burnt Offering (in effect, transferring his sin and guilt to the innocent victim, all typifying Christ taking our sins upon Himself); and it shall be accepted for him to make Atonement for him (refers to the animal being accepted as a Substitute on behalf of the sinner; at the Cross, Christ became our Substitute, and our identification with Him guarantees us Atonement).
“5 And he shall kill the bullock before the LORD (typifying the death of Christ on the Cross): and the Priests, Aaron’s sons, shall bring the blood, and sprinkle the blood round about upon the Altar that is by the door of the Tabernacle of the congregation (the assisting Priest would catch in a basin the blood that poured from the slain animal’s throat; he would then take the blood to the Brazen Altar, and throw it around the bottom of the Altar; in some respects, this was the most essential part of the ceremony, the blood representing the life [Lev. 17:11], which was symbolically received at the hands of the offerer, and presented by the Priests to God; in the antitype, our Lord exercised the function of the sacrificing Priest, when He presented His Own Life to the Father, as He hung upon the Altar of the Cross).”
“6 And he shall flay the Burnt Offering, and cut it into his pieces (this signified how terrible and how deep a thing that sin actually is; sin is not merely exterior; it is interior; it is a disease of the vitals, affecting every single part of the human being).
7 And the sons of Aaron the Priest shall put fire upon the Altar (typical of the Judgment of God, which Christ took upon Himself, all on our behalf), and lay the wood in order upon the fire (the “wood” was typical of the Cross):”
“8 And the Priests, Aaron’s sons, shall lay the parts, the head, and the fat, in order upon the wood that is on the fire which is upon the Altar (the parts, as designated here, signify that the Cross dealt with every aspect of the sinner and sin):
9 But his inwards and his legs shall he wash in water: and the Priest shall burn all on the Altar, to be a Burnt Sacrifice (a Whole Burnt Offering), an Offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD. (The “Burnt Offering,” the “Meat Offering,” and the “Peace Offering” are sacrifices of a “sweet savour.” The expression is never used with regard to the “Sin Offering” and “Trespass Offering.” The “washing” signified the purity of Christ.”
“We should have a very defective apprehension of the mystery of the Cross were we only to see in it that which meets man’s need as a sinner. There were depths in that mystery which only the Mind of God could fathom. It is, therefore, important to see that when the Holy Spirit would furnish us with foreshadowings of the Cross, He gives us, in the very first place, one which sets it forth in its aspect Godward. This alone would be sufficient to teach us that there are heights and depths in the Doctrine of the Cross which man never could reach. There is in the Cross that which only God could know and appreciate. Hence, it is that the Burnt Offering gets the first place. It typifies Christ’s death as viewed and valued by God Alone.)”
JSM
LAW OF BURNT OFFERINGS
1 And t he LORD called unto Moses, and spoke unto him out of the Tabernacle of the congregation, saying (the Holy Spirit has now taken up abode in the Tabernacle, actually in the Holy of Holies, where He dwelt between the Mercy Seat and the Cherubim [I Cor. 3:16]),
2 Speak unto the Children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an Offering unto the LORD, you shall bring your Offering of the cattle, even of the herd, and of the flock. (There is no mention of any woman bringing an Offering to the Lord, as it regards the Sacrifice of an animal. This was always done by a man. Why?”
“Even though Eve sinned first, it was Adam, the fountainhead of the human race, who dragged down mankind through the Fall. Whatever happened to him would pass on to the entirety of mankind. This is the reason that the “Last Adam” was necessary [I Cor. 15:45]. As well, the Sacrificial System had been instituted immediately after the Fall [Gen., Chpt. 4]. However, it didn’t come into full bloom until the Law was given, as here noted.)
3 If his offering be a Burnt Sacrifice of the herd (a whole Burnt Offering, typifying Christ giving His all), let him offer a male without blemish (symbolic of the perfection of Christ): he shall offer it of his own voluntary will (would probably be better translated, “he shall offer it for the Lord’s acceptance”; if the Offering was accepted, so was the offerer; if the Offering was rejected, the offerer was rejected as well!) at the door of the Tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD. (The man had sinned before the Lord, so the Sacrifice must be presented before the Lord.)”
“4 And he shall put his hand upon the head of the Burnt Offering (in effect, transferring his sin and guilt to the innocent victim, all typifying Christ taking our sins upon Himself); and it shall be accepted for him to make Atonement for him (refers to the animal being accepted as a Substitute on behalf of the sinner; at the Cross, Christ became our Substitute, and our identification with Him guarantees us Atonement).
“5 And he shall kill the bullock before the LORD (typifying the death of Christ on the Cross): and the Priests, Aaron’s sons, shall bring the blood, and sprinkle the blood round about upon the Altar that is by the door of the Tabernacle of the congregation (the assisting Priest would catch in a basin the blood that poured from the slain animal’s throat; he would then take the blood to the Brazen Altar, and throw it around the bottom of the Altar; in some respects, this was the most essential part of the ceremony, the blood representing the life [Lev. 17:11], which was symbolically received at the hands of the offerer, and presented by the Priests to God; in the antitype, our Lord exercised the function of the sacrificing Priest, when He presented His Own Life to the Father, as He hung upon the Altar of the Cross).”
“6 And he shall flay the Burnt Offering, and cut it into his pieces (this signified how terrible and how deep a thing that sin actually is; sin is not merely exterior; it is interior; it is a disease of the vitals, affecting every single part of the human being).
7 And the sons of Aaron the Priest shall put fire upon the Altar (typical of the Judgment of God, which Christ took upon Himself, all on our behalf), and lay the wood in order upon the fire (the “wood” was typical of the Cross):”
“8 And the Priests, Aaron’s sons, shall lay the parts, the head, and the fat, in order upon the wood that is on the fire which is upon the Altar (the parts, as designated here, signify that the Cross dealt with every aspect of the sinner and sin):
9 But his inwards and his legs shall he wash in water: and the Priest shall burn all on the Altar, to be a Burnt Sacrifice (a Whole Burnt Offering), an Offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD. (The “Burnt Offering,” the “Meat Offering,” and the “Peace Offering” are sacrifices of a “sweet savour.” The expression is never used with regard to the “Sin Offering” and “Trespass Offering.” The “washing” signified the purity of Christ.”
“We should have a very defective apprehension of the mystery of the Cross were we only to see in it that which meets man’s need as a sinner. There were depths in that mystery which only the Mind of God could fathom. It is, therefore, important to see that when the Holy Spirit would furnish us with foreshadowings of the Cross, He gives us, in the very first place, one which sets it forth in its aspect Godward. This alone would be sufficient to teach us that there are heights and depths in the Doctrine of the Cross which man never could reach. There is in the Cross that which only God could know and appreciate. Hence, it is that the Burnt Offering gets the first place. It typifies Christ’s death as viewed and valued by God Alone.)”
JSM
K
KnowMe
Guest
I like your analogy of the cross, though many have similar analogies about the cross, surely they may think the same that 99% don’t a clue. or say things like Christians must start thinking spiritually well IMO there’s only one who knows if they are or are not.