A NON-CHARISMATIC UNDERSTANDING OF TONGUES

[BenFTW]

Ben, Ben, Ben...... can you tell me what type of language this is? And also tell me why yours is true and mine counterfeit?

If the real exists, and you profess to have experienced it, but say that it is counterfeit, do you not see the contradiction in terms? How can you have experienced the genuine when professing it to be false, now?

 

[UnderGrace]

If the real exists, and you profess to have experienced it, but say that it is counterfeit, do you not see the contradiction in terms? How can you have experienced the genuine when professing it to be false, now?

Because it was not a language...... it was a string of syllables, language is not constructed like that.

 

[BenFTW]

Because it was not a language...... it was a string of syllables, language is not constructed like that.

That may have been your experience but it is not mine. I don't know Spanish fluently, for example, but I can tell sometimes that my tongues are in Spanish. It wouldn't make sense however to know every language you speak because, well, thats the point.

 

[UnderGrace]

That may have been your experience but it is not mine. I don't know Spanish fluently, for example, but I can tell sometimes that my tongues are in Spanish. It wouldn't make sense however to know every language you speak because, well, thats the point.

Is this Spanish when you pray alone?

 

[UnderGrace]

That may have been your experience but it is not mine. I don't know Spanish fluently, for example, but I can tell sometimes that my tongues are in Spanish. It wouldn't make sense however to know every language you speak because, well, thats the point.

Oh Ben, Ben ....people who study linguistics have pretty much mapped out every language on earth and when they have gathered a sample of "language" speakers they were unable to identify any known language among them.

 

[Dino246]

Agree, definitely according to scripture it is a language the person did not learn.

Is this language for use with the corporate body or is it also private for self-edification as some state on here?

That depends on what you mean by "private".

It is for use within the corporate body. However, Paul states that the one who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, so there is a "personal" aspect to it, even in a corporate setting. The overall sense of Paul's instruction is that although personal use is not objectively "bad" (for the person is speaking to God), there is a much better application--tongues with interpretation.

Paul's reference to "pray with my spirit" likely means praying in tongues, though he doesn't specify either way. This would clearly be a "private" application. I could speak further on this, but I'll save it for a better time.

As an aside, I really dislike the term "self-edification" in this context, because that phrase has a distinctly negative connotation in English that is not implied in the text of Scripture. In every other use, the term "edify" (and related words such as edified, etc.) is always positive. Using "self-edification" (with the negative sense) in this one case is imposing the reader's a priori bias against speaking in tongues.

 

[Dino246]

Oh Ben, Ben ....people who study linguistics have pretty much mapped out every language on earth and when they have gathered a sample of "language" speakers they were unable to identify any known language among them.

That by itself doesn't disqualify the "tongue" spoken from being an actual language, nor does the apparent absence of common markers of language as used by linguists. It is evidence but not proof. To put it another way, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

 

[Dino246]

Did Jesus speak in tongues? when?!

Perhaps if you establish some relevance for this question, its answer will be meaningful.

 

[UnderGrace]

That by itself doesn't disqualify the "tongue" spoken from being an actual language, nor does the apparent absence of common markers of language as used by linguists. It is evidence but not proof. To put it another way, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

The assertion is that it is a language

Linguistical and language markers do exist and are well known therefore is indeed "evidence of absence" as well as "absence of evidence."

Rather interesting though that one of the markers of this "language" is its intelligibility......

So then tell me how does one know a counterfeit?

 

[Dino246]

The assertion is that it is a language

Linguistical and language markers do exist and are well known therefore is indeed "evidence of absence" as well as "absence of evidence."

Rather interesting though that one of the markers of this "language" is its intelligibility......

So then tell me how does one know a counterfeit?

Actually, the assertion is that it is a language known to God. Markers of languages known to humans are great for identifying human languages. Many creatures communicate in non-human languages... do those methods of communication qualify as "languages" to the linguists? Who died and made linguists the arbiters of what constitutes "language" anyway?

As for identifying counterfeits, look at the fruit. Is the speaker glorifying God in their natural language? Are they pointing others to God and truth, or to themselves, or worse, to false idols?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I don't understand this idea that tongues is an induced "hyper-arousal state." People speak in tongues privately, alone, with no exterior forces. It isn't some emotional frenzy. Literally, I could start speaking in tongues right now, as calm as can be with nothing going on.

You say you have had the experience, but truly if what you've shared was your experience it is the counterfeit you speak of. Not the genuine manifestation of the Holy Spirit.

Maybe you can answer

How can you test the spirit by translating whatever is coming out of your mouth

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That may have been your experience but it is not mine. I don't know Spanish fluently, for example, but I can tell sometimes that my tongues are in Spanish. It wouldn't make sense however to know every language you speak because, well, thats the point.

Again how you you test the spirit if you do not even know the language. How can you prove it is from god. Not some other source, I mean maybe Spanish? That should be a red flag not something to be happy about

 

[UnderGrace]

Actually, the assertion is that it is a language known to God. Markers of languages known to humans are great for identifying human languages. Many creatures communicate in non-human languages... do those methods of communication qualify as "languages" to the linguists? Who died and made linguists the arbiters of what constitutes "language" anyway?

As for identifying counterfeits, look at the fruit. Is the speaker glorifying God in their natural language? Are they pointing others to God and truth, or to themselves, or worse, to false idols?

Mr. Dino are you anti-science?

 

[Dino246]

Mr. Dino are you anti-science?

Haha... not in the least. However, I recognize its limits and tend to question the speculations of scientists (and non-scientists who quote them) outside those limits. Scientific investigation can reveal whether vocalization "sounds like a language" or "doesn't sound like a language" but it cannot say authoritatively, "This isn't a language"; such would be beyond its limits. Further, scientific investigation can't tell us a blessed thing about which 'spirit' is operating when someone is speaking in tongues.

 

[Melach]

Haha... not in the least. However, I recognize its limits and tend to question the speculations of scientists (and non-scientists who quote them) outside those limits. Scientific investigation can reveal whether vocalization "sounds like a language" or "doesn't sound like a language" but it cannot say authoritatively, "This isn't a language"; such would be beyond its limits. Further, scientific investigation can't tell us a blessed thing about which 'spirit' is operating when someone is speaking in tongues.

Mr. Dino are you anti-science?

God operates outside of nature. supernatural.

Holy Spirit is not "nature". carnal elements of this world will perish. this creation is also under a curse as we speak. you cant measure God with science. it can only tell us of the natural, the supernatural is a different realm.

after i saw Jesus i dont have doubts anymore of anything. its not maybe its real. real encounter with God is great. im not perfect in knowledge or doctrine but i believe that God is still actively operating in the world and all gifts continue until Jesus returns and lifts the curse from this creation. romans talks about that.

 

[UnderGrace]

God operates outside of nature. supernatural.

Holy Spirit is not "nature". carnal elements of this world will perish. this creation is also under a curse as we speak. you cant measure God with science. it can only tell us of the natural, the supernatural is a different realm.

after i saw Jesus i dont have doubts anymore of anything. its not maybe its real. real encounter with God is great. im not perfect in knowledge or doctrine but i believe that God is still actively operating in the world and all gifts continue until Jesus returns and lifts the curse from this creation. romans talks about that.

Yes but language is a natural ability in the neuro-typical brain and language is created by God.

We have concrete markers by which to measure this "language"

Best to ascribe something to the supernatural realm once the natural realm has been ruled out and that is definitely not the case.

 

[UnderGrace]

"This isn't a language"; such would be beyond its limits.

Actually they are the only people (people who study linguistics, neuroscience and language) that can make that determination, if they had been around at the turn of the century when this phenom first occurred in the USA, things may be different now.

Science can inform us when a physical body has died, it is the same for language.

 

[VCO]

Yes I do agree. But we must always look inside make sure we are not doing the same

I know a few people in here do this to me to the point I had to ignore them because they just wanted to attack and belittle and not discuss. All because I disagreed with them.

I am sure you know this, but kaylagrl falsely accuses me of being enraged, and I have never remotely come close to being that. Here are her exact words: But VCO is just enraged at anyone who disagrees. I am 70 years of age, and that is just too old to let another poster get under my skin, LOL. The only emotion her false theology causes in me, is it is just SAD. I am sorry that she gets so upset, but I must stand by what I see is the truth.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

I don't understand this idea that tongues is an induced "hyper-arousal state." People speak in tongues privately, alone, with no exterior forces. It isn't some emotional frenzy. Literally, I could start speaking in tongues right now, as calm as can be with nothing going on.

You say you have had the experience, but truly if what you've shared was your experience it is the counterfeit you speak of. Not the genuine manifestation of the Holy Spirit.

true

that was my conclusion also

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Actually they are the only people (people who study linguistics, neuroscience and language) that can make that determination, if they had been around at the turn of the century when this phenom first occurred in the USA, things may be different now.

Science can inform us when a physical body has died, it is the same for language.

sorry (not sorry)

but that is the argument of kavik who is not a believer. you were in accord with him and yet you persist in asking questions as though you were genuinely wanting to learn or interested

apparently you do not comprehend that the Bible itself reveals that the understanding is derived by the Holy Spirit and not a test lab

but as you have already pointed out, these things bore you