What are the essential beliefs needed for salvation?
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The natural man, according to 1 Cor 2:14, cannot discern spiritual things until he has been born again with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (Eph 2:5). Believing comes after he is born again. This fact would also apply to John 3:16. The world referred to is the world of his elect who have been born again and not to the whole world of mankind.
^ Paul said (in 1Cor3:1-3, that is, IN THE SAME CONTEXT), the following (about BELIEVERS/SAINTS):
"1 And I, brothers, was not able to speak to you as to spiritual, but as fleshly—as to infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk to drink, not solid food, for not yet were you able. In fact, now you are still not able, 3 for you are still fleshly. For where jealousy and strife are among you, are you not fleshly, and are walking according to man?"
These are BELIEVERS/SAINTS who were "not yet able" for Paul to speak unto THEM "as to spiritual" (regarding the chpt 2 things--this is what he is referring to, here)
"1 And I, brothers, was not able to speak to you as to spiritual, but as fleshly—as to infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk to drink, not solid food, for not yet were you able. In fact, now you are still not able, 3 for you are still fleshly. For where jealousy and strife are among you, are you not fleshly, and are walking according to man?"
These are BELIEVERS/SAINTS who were "not yet able" for Paul to speak unto THEM "as to spiritual" (regarding the chpt 2 things--this is what he is referring to, here)
How incredibly unkind of someone who calls himself a Christian. I asked how I ignored you, you won't explain. I apologized for misrepresenting you, you don't care. I asked for clarification, you declined. For whatever offense I may have caused I'm truly sorry, but you have offered no exegesis, no interpretation (at least not a consistent one as far as I can tell) and won't answer questions. Just assertions and accusations. Sounds like a concession to me.
How arrogant and in the wrong spirit is a Christian who shows they are only interested in wining a debate when they respond to a Christian who wants to withdraw from an unplesant conversation with the """ I can just consider this a concession. Your call"" That shows that you have no desire for a genuine discussion with a brother in Christ.. That statement shows your desire is to WIN!! You desire victory over others and to gloat with intellectual pride over others.. ""i can just consider that a concession"" Typical arrogant superior loveless attitude of a toxic debater...
I do not come in here to talk to pompous puffed up Pharisees.. I come in here to read what bothers and sisters in Christ want to share and consider them carefully before responding with a genuine desire to bless the other person.. You are not that type of person..
This thread was started by someone with a serious question about faith and i gave my considered answer and then i have to face a contentious debater who wants to provoke and win an argument.. So the joy of sharing the heart felt message of God to a seeker is undermined by a toxic person like you..
Please put me on ignore.. I do not want to deal with people like you anymore in a supposedly Christian forum..
I do not come in here to talk to pompous puffed up Pharisees.. I come in here to read what bothers and sisters in Christ want to share and consider them carefully before responding with a genuine desire to bless the other person.. You are not that type of person..
This thread was started by someone with a serious question about faith and i gave my considered answer and then i have to face a contentious debater who wants to provoke and win an argument.. So the joy of sharing the heart felt message of God to a seeker is undermined by a toxic person like you..
Please put me on ignore.. I do not want to deal with people like you anymore in a supposedly Christian forum..
I do not know how else to apologize. Seems that has fallen on deaf ears. I too came here to discuss with brothers and sisters, not to win arguments. I'm here to preach the gospel and talk about the gospel.
The thing is, I don't consider you a brother. I'm not here to win some debate against you, winning is meaningless. But like the apostles who did apologetics to stop the mouths of unbelievers and call the elect to repentance and faith, I aim to do the same, flawed as I am. But your considered opinion twists the scriptures, I think I've shown that. I refuse to let that poison go unanswered. But I urge you to repent and see the truth. I have never insulted or called you names, only given you the truth as I see it. I've given you admonishment if love, in hopes you will see the truth, and tried to hold up the mirror so you could see your behavior and false gospel, again falling on deaf ears. I will pray for you dear friend, and if you change you mind I'm here to continue this discussion in love and respect. Repent. It is my only admonition.
The thing is, I don't consider you a brother. I'm not here to win some debate against you, winning is meaningless. But like the apostles who did apologetics to stop the mouths of unbelievers and call the elect to repentance and faith, I aim to do the same, flawed as I am. But your considered opinion twists the scriptures, I think I've shown that. I refuse to let that poison go unanswered. But I urge you to repent and see the truth. I have never insulted or called you names, only given you the truth as I see it. I've given you admonishment if love, in hopes you will see the truth, and tried to hold up the mirror so you could see your behavior and false gospel, again falling on deaf ears. I will pray for you dear friend, and if you change you mind I'm here to continue this discussion in love and respect. Repent. It is my only admonition.
Is there a doctrinal disagreement going on here?
I know some free grace believers who take one position, and Holiness movement believers who take another.
Some are strong calvanist supporters and some hold a stronger armenian view.
Reading some of your interaction I am not sure who is saying what and where there is a distinction.
I am asking because often it appears people miss-read their positions.
Some hide their true views because it would expose their polarisation of people, in the aim to win others,
because they feel righteous walkers are evil hypocrites with bitterness within. This is a hard ask as people
who just love Jesus and know His working in their hearts testify to this not any christian groups.
God bless you
I know some free grace believers who take one position, and Holiness movement believers who take another.
Some are strong calvanist supporters and some hold a stronger armenian view.
Reading some of your interaction I am not sure who is saying what and where there is a distinction.
I am asking because often it appears people miss-read their positions.
Some hide their true views because it would expose their polarisation of people, in the aim to win others,
because they feel righteous walkers are evil hypocrites with bitterness within. This is a hard ask as people
who just love Jesus and know His working in their hearts testify to this not any christian groups.
God bless you
Thanks for the comment. The disagreement is over the efficacy of the atonement. I saw comments that misrepresented the biblical doctrine and wanted to correct it. For the poster and anyone else in this thread. I love nothing more than the Work of Christ. It isn't a matter of righteousness but of gospel truth. The gospel is the power of God unto salvation.
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That helps, thanks.
So are you saying the atonement cancelled sin past, present, future for the whole world, so sin
is no longer a reason for judgement.
Some say though all sin is potentially atoned for it is only applied to those who claim it in faith.
Some say Jesus died only for the sin of the elect, so it does not bring forgiveness for the world.
Some say Jesus only atones for repented sin, unrepented sin is left to be resolved as it arises.
Some say because sin is totally resolved, salvation is dependent only on faith in Jesus or not.
A further morality is created where believers do good works, but unbelievers can never do good works.
And a good work is only done by a believer in the Spirit, not in the flesh.
I like to keep things simple, sin is sin, and as we are convicted we repent and bring it to the Lord.
The thing that changes me is knowing Jesus forgave my sin and loves me which empowers my
life to follow Him through the Holy Spirit.
A lot of excuses and theology seems to be to justify wilful sin and refusal to repent and sort it out
while claiming ones heart is in the Kingdom, which strikes me as pure hypocrisy and denial of what
sin actually is and how rebellion destroys who we are in Christ. So I reject those who walk in sin
and know about it, because their hearts appear to be shutting out God and the death that comes from this.
I know what happens to people who shut love out, and let sin reign and it is never good.
So are you saying the atonement cancelled sin past, present, future for the whole world, so sin
is no longer a reason for judgement.
Some say though all sin is potentially atoned for it is only applied to those who claim it in faith.
Some say Jesus died only for the sin of the elect, so it does not bring forgiveness for the world.
Some say Jesus only atones for repented sin, unrepented sin is left to be resolved as it arises.
Some say because sin is totally resolved, salvation is dependent only on faith in Jesus or not.
A further morality is created where believers do good works, but unbelievers can never do good works.
And a good work is only done by a believer in the Spirit, not in the flesh.
I like to keep things simple, sin is sin, and as we are convicted we repent and bring it to the Lord.
The thing that changes me is knowing Jesus forgave my sin and loves me which empowers my
life to follow Him through the Holy Spirit.
A lot of excuses and theology seems to be to justify wilful sin and refusal to repent and sort it out
while claiming ones heart is in the Kingdom, which strikes me as pure hypocrisy and denial of what
sin actually is and how rebellion destroys who we are in Christ. So I reject those who walk in sin
and know about it, because their hearts appear to be shutting out God and the death that comes from this.
I know what happens to people who shut love out, and let sin reign and it is never good.
Love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your mind and all your strength and love your neighbour as you love God.
And who is God well Jesus shows us He is Lord, the son of God, he shows us the Father. Believe what Jesus says.
And why ought we to believe what Jesus says over any other person? Because he died on the cross for us and was raised to life.
For God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son so that whosoever believes in him shall not perish, but shall have eternal life.
What is eternal life...it is salvation, it means we wont ever be destroyed. We will live forever. because God is eternal.
And who is God well Jesus shows us He is Lord, the son of God, he shows us the Father. Believe what Jesus says.
And why ought we to believe what Jesus says over any other person? Because he died on the cross for us and was raised to life.
For God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son so that whosoever believes in him shall not perish, but shall have eternal life.
What is eternal life...it is salvation, it means we wont ever be destroyed. We will live forever. because God is eternal.
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I am not partial to the theories of men and teachings of preachers. I believe those who teach what the Bible teaches, Christ died as a propitiatory atonement for the sins of all that the Father gave to Him. It is not about us or our acceptance. Christ's offering for sin was made to the faith and accepted. Our faith is a gift from God to unite us to Christ and grow us in conformity to His holy character. That is all I have been saying in this thread.
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I can deal with people disagreeing with my beliefs..
The problem in this thread was not that we disagreed in regards to belief..
My problem was with another poster stating that i hold positions that i do not hold. Positons that i never expressed. Plus the fact that this person chose to do so in a thread started by someone seeking information about Christianity.. So not only did they make a false allegation against a Christian ( whom they now declare is not a brother in Christ ) they provoked contention using this tactic in front of a seeker.. And thus undermined Christianity in the eyes of the seeker..
If a person truly believes someone is giving bad advice to a seeker then the option of sending a private message to the seeker is open to them to counter what they see as bad advice without causing contention on the seekers thread.. They can also opt to send a private message to the person they believe is giving bad advice to start a one on one discussion..
I have found over the last 18 years of being involved in Online Christian forums and chat rooms that my worst experiences have been in dealing with calvinists.. They are often combative and toxic towards anyone who does not agree 100% with their T,U,L,I,P doctrines.. Eventually they will make statements like you're not a Christian ( not a brother in Christ ) as we have seen above..
The problem in this thread was not that we disagreed in regards to belief..
My problem was with another poster stating that i hold positions that i do not hold. Positons that i never expressed. Plus the fact that this person chose to do so in a thread started by someone seeking information about Christianity.. So not only did they make a false allegation against a Christian ( whom they now declare is not a brother in Christ ) they provoked contention using this tactic in front of a seeker.. And thus undermined Christianity in the eyes of the seeker..
If a person truly believes someone is giving bad advice to a seeker then the option of sending a private message to the seeker is open to them to counter what they see as bad advice without causing contention on the seekers thread.. They can also opt to send a private message to the person they believe is giving bad advice to start a one on one discussion..
I have found over the last 18 years of being involved in Online Christian forums and chat rooms that my worst experiences have been in dealing with calvinists.. They are often combative and toxic towards anyone who does not agree 100% with their T,U,L,I,P doctrines.. Eventually they will make statements like you're not a Christian ( not a brother in Christ ) as we have seen above..
Again I'm amazed at the way this conversation has continued to progress. I am truly sorry to those following this.
First, I cannot understand why you continue to misrepresented me after getting so upset about it yourself. I never claimed to be a Calvinist, never even mentioned TULIP, and even apologized after misrepresenting your position and asked you questions to get clarification on what it is that you actually believe. I made every attempt to be cordial and to continue this discussion amicably. I would hope that someone following this discussion would see that. I am surprised to hear that Calvinists call you unsaved based on your arminianism (I'm sure you wouldn't use that title but I'm using it for shorthand). Most reformed folks I know, and I know many, accept folks like yourself based on you belief in Sola fide. I digress, but that comment was surprising.
Next, again I never mentioned TULIP in my reasoning. I said I don't count you as a brother because of your denial of the gospel, as Paul did is Galatians. The atonement (Christ's work) is central to the gospel. One who does not believe the gospel is unsaved, as it is the power of God unto salvation. That is the point that I made and I would ask, as you have, not to be misrepresented.
When it comes to why I corrected you publicly here instead of in private, it is because your post is public. Anyone, especially the seeker who made this thread, could see your post and to not answer it for them publicly could lead to confusion. I answered to protect the young and untaught from your heresy and misinterpretation. I tried to make that clear as we continued to dialogue. I care about them as much as I do you, friend. I don't want anyone to fall into heresy band to meet God with a lie on their lips. I want you to believe the gospel so that I may rejoice bin calling you my brother. I take my marching orders from Jesus and the apostles to go and preach the gospel, discipling all nations. You can attempt to declare my motives to everyone (which is odd since you were so upset when you were misrepresented) but I will answer for myself.
My final comment in this post will he once again to summarize what I've seen and call you to repentance. In this dialogue you have still not provided an answer by my critique. No situation from scripture, no exegesis, no defense. You have been unkind and accusative toward me even when I apologized, more than once. You did the same thing you accused me of, in multiple posts putting words in my mouth and misrepresenting who I am, what I preach, and what my motives are. Even when someone else entered the discussion asking for clarity you simply pointed the finger at me, lied completely about me in the discussion, and called me toxic. All I can say is wow. Genuinely I mean that. Just wow. I can't think of a more obvious display to show you are not a brother in Christ and need to repent. You play the victim, accuse others, refuse to accept apologies, misrepresent and even lie about people, cannot show where scripture supports your teaching, refuse rebuke, and finally resort to name calling when all is said and done. That is completely unchristian behavior.
I don't claim to be perfect here, and I'm sure my language comes across harsh. I love my Lord and His gospel. I will not stay silent when I see it twisted. I will defend it and preach it until my last breath. As I do I will make mistakes, and for those I will apologize and make amends as best I can. I don't claim to be a hero and that you are some villian Adstar, but I want you and everyone to see what has happened here. I didn't have to say you weren't my brother, you evidenced it by your confession and behavior. Anyone following this can see that and knows better than to trust your teaching in the future. But I love you, man. I not saying all this to be your judge or condemn you to hell or anything. This a call to repentance. Look back over your posts and mine, see if what I say is true. If I'm lying, show me. Show everyone. I want you to.
Please repent my friend. See your sin and self-righteousness and repent. Come to our sovereign Lord and His mercy. Trust in Him alone.
May God be the Judge
First, I cannot understand why you continue to misrepresented me after getting so upset about it yourself. I never claimed to be a Calvinist, never even mentioned TULIP, and even apologized after misrepresenting your position and asked you questions to get clarification on what it is that you actually believe. I made every attempt to be cordial and to continue this discussion amicably. I would hope that someone following this discussion would see that. I am surprised to hear that Calvinists call you unsaved based on your arminianism (I'm sure you wouldn't use that title but I'm using it for shorthand). Most reformed folks I know, and I know many, accept folks like yourself based on you belief in Sola fide. I digress, but that comment was surprising.
Next, again I never mentioned TULIP in my reasoning. I said I don't count you as a brother because of your denial of the gospel, as Paul did is Galatians. The atonement (Christ's work) is central to the gospel. One who does not believe the gospel is unsaved, as it is the power of God unto salvation. That is the point that I made and I would ask, as you have, not to be misrepresented.
When it comes to why I corrected you publicly here instead of in private, it is because your post is public. Anyone, especially the seeker who made this thread, could see your post and to not answer it for them publicly could lead to confusion. I answered to protect the young and untaught from your heresy and misinterpretation. I tried to make that clear as we continued to dialogue. I care about them as much as I do you, friend. I don't want anyone to fall into heresy band to meet God with a lie on their lips. I want you to believe the gospel so that I may rejoice bin calling you my brother. I take my marching orders from Jesus and the apostles to go and preach the gospel, discipling all nations. You can attempt to declare my motives to everyone (which is odd since you were so upset when you were misrepresented) but I will answer for myself.
My final comment in this post will he once again to summarize what I've seen and call you to repentance. In this dialogue you have still not provided an answer by my critique. No situation from scripture, no exegesis, no defense. You have been unkind and accusative toward me even when I apologized, more than once. You did the same thing you accused me of, in multiple posts putting words in my mouth and misrepresenting who I am, what I preach, and what my motives are. Even when someone else entered the discussion asking for clarity you simply pointed the finger at me, lied completely about me in the discussion, and called me toxic. All I can say is wow. Genuinely I mean that. Just wow. I can't think of a more obvious display to show you are not a brother in Christ and need to repent. You play the victim, accuse others, refuse to accept apologies, misrepresent and even lie about people, cannot show where scripture supports your teaching, refuse rebuke, and finally resort to name calling when all is said and done. That is completely unchristian behavior.
I don't claim to be perfect here, and I'm sure my language comes across harsh. I love my Lord and His gospel. I will not stay silent when I see it twisted. I will defend it and preach it until my last breath. As I do I will make mistakes, and for those I will apologize and make amends as best I can. I don't claim to be a hero and that you are some villian Adstar, but I want you and everyone to see what has happened here. I didn't have to say you weren't my brother, you evidenced it by your confession and behavior. Anyone following this can see that and knows better than to trust your teaching in the future. But I love you, man. I not saying all this to be your judge or condemn you to hell or anything. This a call to repentance. Look back over your posts and mine, see if what I say is true. If I'm lying, show me. Show everyone. I want you to.
Please repent my friend. See your sin and self-righteousness and repent. Come to our sovereign Lord and His mercy. Trust in Him alone.
May God be the Judge
O
You must have FAITH first to believe there even is a God to begin with.
Once this seed of Faith is implanted within your heart, you will understand that compared to God you are a sinner.
This is where the transformation begins.
But you will never be able to understand salvation or the need for salvation until you first have FAITH to believe there is a God.
Because when you finally understand through FAITH there is a God, you understand your desperate need for God.
It's the NEED for God that reveals you understand you have no salvation.
This is the point to which the ground has been broken and the seed has been planted because you will then strive for God's Salvation!!