Not By Works

azamzimtoti · Apr 7, 2019

This is a bit of a let down.

I assumed that when you claimed "It strikes me we need all three to walk with the Lord" that you knew this from ACTUAL experience rather than an hypothesis.

"3 types of righteousness

Righteousness of action
Righteousness of the heart
Righteousness of faith

It strikes me we need all three to walk with the Lord."

dcontroversal · Apr 7, 2019

eternally-gratefull said:

AMEN............PAID in FULL........end of story......after salvation SIN is directed at fellowship....not the loss of SALVATION...he is too dense to grasp that truth though

SocialOne · Apr 7, 2019

BibletruthSOP said:

I believe in predestination. I believe in the power of God to sustain that. I believe that we don't have the right or righteousness to "accept" as in "permit" anything from god. I believe that every single child of God will naturally be rebellious on different levels we create, and i believe every single child of God will be willing and obedient on many different"levels" we create, but I believe doesn't hold any meaningful substance if it isn't the truth.

Guojing · Apr 7, 2019

azamzimtoti said:

God's solution is much more direct

, Its all a gift!

(KJV) Isaiah 61:10 I will greatly rejoice in the Lord, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.

I think Christians of all denominations have no problems believing that Jesus on the cross, has took our sins, and saved us. That is the garment of salvation.

But the divine exchange did more than that. We are not only clothed with the garment of salvation, we are also covered with an additional part, which is the robe of righteousness.

In some other translations, the term used is wrapped, indicating that we are completely covered. This means we are not only saved from the penalty of our sins, we are completely righteous.

To understand the degree of this “completely righteous”, take a look at three testimonies of Jesus righteousness from Peter, John, and Paul

1) Peter, a man of action, said in 1 Peter 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth
2) John, a man of love, said in 1 John 3:5, You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.
3) Paul, a man of intellect, said in 2 Cor 5:21, For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

SocialOne · Apr 7, 2019

azamzimtoti said:

That's odd, the three righteousnesses mentioned seems to me will wax old and cease to exist at the grave.
I believe I am made righteous by the imputing of the holy spirit by the grace extended out of a love so pure and powerful that not only can we not begin to fathom it, but it should be a sin to try to explain it.
I believe that love works for the glory of God, and I believe that the glory of God should be prominent over our salvation

dcontroversal · Apr 7, 2019

azamzimtoti said:

AMEN......a matter of fellowship, chastening, loss of reward and maybe even physical life, but NOT about losing salvation.......

dcontroversal · Apr 7, 2019

azamzimtoti said:

He is referencing me....DC.....and Macaroni cannot deal with the fact that i said it takes growth and maturity to bear fruit and even said that is some it takes years of growth and maturity...he simply cannot accept this fact that is supported by not only nature, but also JESUS comparing wheat with tares...and he has been obsessing over it for months now and making all sorts of false, deceitful statements...

Argueless · Apr 7, 2019

dcontroversal said:

...Ananias and Sapphira Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property. With his wife’s full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles’ feet. Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God.” When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened. Then the young men came forward, wrapped up his body, and carried him out and buried him. About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. Peter asked her, “Tell me, is this the price you and Ananias got for the land?” “Yes,” she said, “that is the price.” Peter said to her, “How could you agree to test the Spirit of the Lord? Look! The feet of the men who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out also.” At that moment she fell down at his feet and died. Then the young men came in and, finding her dead, carried her out and buried her beside her husband. Great fear seized the whole church and all who heard about these events. Acts 5:1-11

If it is OK to lie to the Holy Spirit and it has no bearing or effect in ones salvation, what can be worser that would not be Ok for these people who CLAIM that ONCE you are SAVED, YOU are ALWAYS SAVED?

...Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers. Galatians 6:7-10

Is the Holy Spirit pleased with those who lie to Him?

dcontroversal · Apr 7, 2019

gb9 said:

We all know what he said.....he has a habit of denying things he has obviously stated or implied.....makes me think of how one will dogmatically go down while swinging the self justifying stick instead of just being honest.......

SocialOne · Apr 7, 2019

Argueless said:

...Ananias and Sapphira Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property. With his wife’s full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles’ feet. Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God.” When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened. Then the young men came forward, wrapped up his body, and carried him out and buried him. About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. Peter asked her, “Tell me, is this the price you and Ananias got for the land?” “Yes,” she said, “that is the price.” Peter said to her, “How could you agree to test the Spirit of the Lord? Look! The feet of the men who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out also.” At that moment she fell down at his feet and died. Then the young men came in and, finding her dead, carried her out and buried her beside her husband. Great fear seized the whole church and all who heard about these events. Acts 5:1-11

If it is OK to lie to the Holy Spirit and it has no bearing or effect in ones salvation, what can be worser that would not be Ok for these people who CLAIM that ONCE you are SAVED, YOU are ALWAYS SAVED?

...Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers. Galatians 6:7-10

Is the Holy Spirit pleased with those who lie to Him?

I feel that lying to any 3 of the Trinity, as with any offense, is instantaneously annihilated by love so extensively and thoroughly that the offense is rendered useless to achieve anything whatsoeve. Including the ability to achieve an emotional attachment.

Macabeus · Apr 8, 2019

azamzimtoti said:

That which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ . . . (1 John 1:3) If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. (written to believers) (1 John 1:5). (written in context of confession of sin)

.22 Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful. Mattjew 13:22

Macabeus · Apr 8, 2019

dcontroversal said:

a. You made a universal statement of all believers "...it takes a period of growth and maturity to bear ANYTHING" in context of fruit bearing.

b. This teaching is not found in the Bible.

c. You allowed and agreed to your unbiblical statement being defended by the statement "it takes years for a fruit tree to grow fruit". You ignored the fact that "fruit" in the bible also referred to crops which take months to produce. (Christian maturity does not come in months)

d. You should have made your statement a contingent possibility (it may take believers a period of growth and maturity" but instead you made it a necessity ("it takes a period of growth and maturity

e. You listed giving a disciple a cup of cold water as one example of bearing good fruit, so I suppose it takes a period of growth and maturity to give a disciple a cup of cold water

f. Sowing seed to missionary societies and to your local church causes fruit to be born to your account, and it doesnt take years of growth and maturity to do this.

g. Sharing your testimony of how God saved you can be fruitful, and doesnt take a a period of growth and maturity to do this. I know people who started sharing their faith the day they were saved. .

H. People seeing your transformed life can lead them to be drawn to God, and this does not take a period of growth and maturity. Sometimes the change in life is immediete and RADICAL.

I. And since you made your statement a UNIVERSAL NECESSITY, instead of a contingent possibility. you basically ruled out the possibility of points e-h

J. You did not specify the level of maturity needed to be able to bear fruit. Christian maturity is a lifelong process. SO is fruitbearing. They happen concurrently, not consecutively.

Macabeus · Apr 8, 2019

azamzimtoti said:

Where did I say someone hasnt done that? I am saying this because they SHOULD BE deterrents to us sinning.

Macabeus · Apr 8, 2019

oldethennew said:

I am not antagonistic to you at all. I use CAPS for emphasis. I am just adding to what you said. I sincerely apologize for the misunderstanding.

Who is hub? I was wondering about that before.

Macabeus · Apr 8, 2019

azamzimtoti said:

I would say it is a progression that goes like this...

a. Righteousness of faith produces righteousness of heart

b. Righteousness of heart produces righteousness of action.

...and it doesnt necessarily take a period of growth and maturity for righteousness of heart and righteousness of action to BEGIN to occur as DC claims. Righteousness of heart begins with faith and righteousness of action begins with righteousness of heart, and THEY GROW ALONG WITH THE BELIEVER'S GROWTH.

FollowHisSteps · Apr 8, 2019

azamzimtoti said:

I have experience of these things.
As you appear to call these things theory, it suggests you do not.
This is unfortunate.

People who are lost in sin and dysfunctional behaviour know the problem,
the slavery, the lostness. If they come to Christ, they open their hearts because
there is nothing else to do, to start to get things sorted out. And the Lord moves,
heals, restores, builds new things to His glory.

It is those who are from the church and never have recognised how desperately
wicked their hearts are, lying and deceiving them, yet to them never appears to be
the problem, because they are not that evil, or bad, or getting it wrong.

So they talk about righteousness by faith, and leave the other two alone, and claim
the Lord only meant for the first to take place.

Thought christians stay as they are, and change is not a thing they desire.
But following the Lord is about vulnerability, openness, risk and trust. You cannot
teach these things, either you have walked this path or you have not.

God bless you.

FollowHisSteps · Apr 8, 2019

dcontroversal said:

Without righteousness of action, and righteousness of the heart, one is just a thought Christian.
It is not difficult to grasp that is all you are preaching, which is totally superficial and pointless.

Paul talks about walking in faith till the end.
Peter making our calling and election sure.
John talks about believers in Christ not sinning.

Just for John to suggest we walk doing good not evil, means a fundamental change has happened
in our hearts and in our actions.

Paul testifies to once we lived in sin now we live to the Spirit.

1 As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received.
2 Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love.
3 Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace.
4 There is one body and one Spirit--just as you were called to one hope when you were called--
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
Eph 4:1-6

1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,
2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.
3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.
Eph 2:1-3

Out foundation in love and knowledge of God
14 For this reason I kneel before the Father,
15 from whom his whole family in heaven and on earth derives its name.
16 I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being,
17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love,
18 may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ,
19 and to know this love that surpasses knowledge--that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.
Eph 3:14-19

This is our foundation in Christ that is shown by a pure walk, and a cleansed heart and conscience.

FollowHisSteps · Apr 8, 2019

22 You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires;
23 to be made new in the attitude of your minds;
24 and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.
25 Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to his neighbor, for we are all members of one body.
26 "In your anger do not sin": Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry,
27 and do not give the devil a foothold.
Eph 4:22-27

The above is about a choice of the will, taking ownership, based on love and the work Jesus
has done within us, through repentance and faith.

Faith is the gift of God, which leads to sorrow at our state of life, which leads us to repentance,
which leads to salvation.

Repentance causes us to give up, to open our hearts, to let the Lord in.
This is not a one off event, but many layers and issues as they arise, causing us to be remade
and built to His glory.

9 now I am happy, not because you were made sorry, but because your sorrow led you to repentance. For you became sorrowful as God intended and so were not harmed in any way by us.
10 Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.
11 See what this godly sorrow has produced in you: what earnestness, what eagerness to clear yourselves, what indignation, what alarm, what longing, what concern, what readiness to see justice done.
2 Cor 7:9-11

Our hearts desire in Christ to know righteousness and truth, to have love reign in us to His
glory, because He is the great King of Love and truth forever, Amen.

FollowHisSteps · Apr 8, 2019

Language

Passed from death to life

I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has
eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.
John 5:24

God's solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription:
"The Lord knows those who are his," and,
"Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness."
2 Tim 2:19

When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord;
and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.
Acts 13:48

Sow to
The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction;
the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
Gal 6:8

But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the
benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.
Rom 6:22

Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good
confession in the presence of many witnesses.
1 Tim 6:12

The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you
the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us.
1 John 1:2

And this is what he promised us--even eternal life.
1 John 2:23

Keep yourselves in God's love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ
to bring you to eternal life.
Jude 1:21

It is confusing one term "eternal life".
It is the promise if we believe, it is Jesus himself, it is the life we have awaiting us when
we meet Him at the end.

Other than the gospels and Jesus's promises, eternal life appears to be life with
Jesus when we meet Him face to face, not now in the present moment.

One could read Jesus's promises as looking forward to the eternal life we will
receive when we meet Him, ie a transformed body that will never die.

The danger of believing we have received eternal life now is arrogance and presumption.
Israel did this, hardening their hearts.

8 do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion, during the time of testing in the desert
11 So I declared on oath in my anger, 'They shall never enter my rest.'
12 See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God.
13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness.
Heb 3:8..11-13

eternally-gratefull · Apr 8, 2019

BibletruthSOP said:

Lol, Another one that does not understand what the word “repent” means

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