A NON-CHARISMATIC UNDERSTANDING OF TONGUES

[Dino246]

The very definition of "edify" is it to enlighten, instruct........ how can one possibly be edified without understanding?

You're looking at this backwards, and you seem to be applying non-biblical standards to a biblical issue.

Does Scripture say that the one who speaks in tongues edifies himself, or doesn't it? Understanding is a requirement for others to be edified, not for the speaker.

 

[Dino246]

Cessation
The understanding from the scripture is simple; the gifts ceased, all of 'em.

conclusion; The gifts ceased, all of 'em.

You are claiming that the Holy Spirit inspired Paul to write three chapters of Scripture for one specific congregation who would have a maximum of about 20 years to apply said instruction before it would be utterly irrelevant.

Laughable... and contrary to Scripture, which states only three "shall cease".

 

[Noose]

Nor were there interpretation nor "two independent witnesses to confirm" in Acts 10, nor in Acts 19. Those aren't scriptural tests for genuineness of the gift.

Common sense.
If someone spoke something in a unknown language and another stood up to interpret in my language, how will i confirm that what the other said was what was interpreted to me if there is no other witness who understands?

Fallacy: guilt by association. Though it's a popular argument, it is fallacious to believe that because someone is wrong about issue 'A' that they are also wrong about issue 'B'. They may not have credibility, but they are not necessarily wrong.

Then the whole tongues argument is also fallacious. Just because the Apostles and the first century church spoke in tongues, alos our tongues must be genuine. Fallacy: Genuine by association.

The Scripture also talks of the millennium, but that hasn't happened yet either. Again, flawed reasoning.

1 Cor 13:13And now these three remain: faith, hope, and love; but the greatest of these is love.

So, according to you, in the millenium these will remain, faith/hope/love?!
talk of weirdness.

You'd do well to learn about logical fallacies. You're basing most of your arguments on them.

You'll do well if you read a bible.

 

[UnderGrace]

You're looking at this backwards, and you seem to be applying non-biblical standards to a biblical issue.

Does Scripture say that the one who speaks in tongues edifies himself, or doesn't it? Understanding is a requirement for others to be edified, not for the speaker.

Which exact verse are you referring to?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You're looking at this backwards, and you seem to be applying non-biblical standards to a biblical issue.

Does Scripture say that the one who speaks in tongues edifies himself, or doesn't it? Understanding is a requirement for others to be edified, not for the speaker.

I think she is talking about praying. Not public speaking. (Edifying self)

Public speaking of tongues edifies the church, But also is interpreted. So everyone knows what is said, and sees the fulfillment to know it was from God. That edifies the church.

 

[Noose]

You're still starting with your conclusion. That's a logical fallacy, and will always be invalid no matter how much verbiage you put around it. The speaker is edified because the word of God says he is edified, not because he understands.

The church is edified because the tongues are interpreted to them for their understanding not because the word of God says they will be edified. Simple logic, if edification comes by understanding, there's no other form of edification that comes without the understanding.

The organ tongue was created to bring out the understanding from someone's mind/heart (apart from mixing food during eating). If one fails to bring the understanding they have to others, then it can be said that their understanding has failed or is unfruitful and that is what Paul calls self edification. It is a wrong thing.

1 Cor 14: 13Therefore, the one who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret. 14For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.

 

[Noose]

You are claiming that the Holy Spirit inspired Paul to write three chapters of Scripture for one specific congregation who would have a maximum of about 20 years to apply said instruction before it would be utterly irrelevant.

Laughable... and contrary to Scripture, which states only three "shall cease".

1 Cor 13:1If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a ringing gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have absolute faith so as to move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and exult in the surrender of my body,a but have not love, I gain nothing.

......

1 Cor 13:13And now these three remain: faith, hope, and love; but the greatest of these is love.

It is laughable to think that these three shall remain during the millennium.

Simple, when perfect love comes, everything ceases. Perfect love is nothing more than knowing God- that did not take more than the life time of the apostles.

 

[BenFTW]

Again I ask

How can you test that it is the spirit speaking, Just saying you BELIEVE it is from the HS is NOT PROOF. You must have some form of proof that the WORDS YOU ARE SPEAKING are scripturally sound. If you have no understanding what you are saying, how can you test the spirit?

Well, one way is to have an interpreter present and fellowship with the Lord. When you speak in tongues the interpreter, if the Lord is willing, will get an understanding. What you hear then, having read your Bible and knowing the character and nature of God, can be "tested." I say tested in that way because we are His sheep and we know His voice. To what degree will you continue to test the spirit, as if you do not know His voice? How many confirmations do you need, for example? At some point in your walk, there should be a knowing.

Do you fellowship with God? When He speaks to you, or directs you, do you know it is of Him? Maybe you question it and seek confirmation? At what point when He speaks to you, do you just say "I am here" instead of "Who are you?" You recognize the voice of those you are acquainted (family, friends, etc), why not God's voice?

 

[UnderGrace]

You're still starting with your conclusion. That's a logical fallacy, and will always be invalid no matter how much verbiage you put around it. The speaker is edified because the word of God says he is edified, not because he understands.

Too funny, if you could just not put "ecstatic utterence" in the place of "tongues" and just read it as "language" you would see the entire doctrine falls apart.

4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church.

Of course if someone is speaking a foreign language, common in Corinth btw and no one understands him/her then understanding is only limited to himself.

Why you may ask....because it is his natural language so he understands what he is saying.

This is very common sense instruction about how to deal with such a mixed congregation with various languages....sad how it has been hyper-spiritualized

 

[UnderGrace]

Well so far we do not know what this "tongues" is an angelic language or an earthly language.

Scripture does not support angelic
Science does not support earthly

Someone care to tell me what this language is?

Is it the language of God? Where do we find this in scripture

 

[BenFTW]

Too funny, if you could just not put "ecstatic utterence" in the place of "tongues" and just read it as "language" you would see the entire doctrine falls apart.

4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church.

Of course if someone is speaking a foreign language, common in Corinth btw and no one understands him/her then understanding is only limited to himself.

Why you may ask....because it is his natural language so he understands what he is saying.

This is very common sense instruction about how to deal with such a mixed congregation with various languages....sad how it has been hyper-spiritualized

If tongues is a gift/manifestation of the Holy Spirit, how do you say that the foreign language the man speaks is his natural language? That would mean we all speak in tongues any time we are in the midst of a people unfamiliar with our language. However, this is a very naturalistic understanding and presentation of what is a spiritual gift, that permits a person to speak in languages they do not know fluently.

 

[UnderGrace]

If tongues is a gift/manifestation of the Holy Spirit, how do you say that the foreign language the man speaks is his natural language? That would mean we all speak in tongues any time we are in the midst of a people unfamiliar with our language. However, this is a very naturalistic understanding and presentation of what is a spiritual gift, that permits a person to speak in languages they do not know fluently.

The letter to Corinthians is only dealing with the languages spoken by the congregants at the time, the foreign language that Paul to refers where the translators inserted unknown is not in the text but added for clarification.

It was obviously a language Paul did not know or a dialect of some sort.

There is some research that the temple prostitutes that had converted brought their ecstatic utterances into the congregation, at that time how would anyone even have known that was not a language. There was no study of linguistics.

Language is for communication.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Well, one way is to have an interpreter present and fellowship with the Lord. When you speak in tongues the interpreter, if the Lord is willing, will get an understanding. What you hear then, having read your Bible and knowing the character and nature of God, can be "tested." I say tested in that way because we are His sheep and we know His voice. To what degree will you continue to test the spirit, as if you do not know His voice? How many confirmations do you need, for example? At some point in your walk, there should be a knowing.

So he just speaks the word? Or does he prophesy in group setting?

I am speaking more of prayers, when your by yourself and you have NO interpretation

Do you fellowship with God?

All the time, In thought or when reading his word. Or when I am praying or we as a group are doing corporate prayer

When He speaks to you, or directs you, do you know it is of Him?

If I can not verify the truth, then no, I do not know it is him, in fact I would say it is not him. God is not the only one who talks to me.. Scripture is CLEAR on this

Maybe you question it and seek confirmation? At what point when He speaks to you, do you just say "I am here" instead of "Who are you?" You recognize the voice of those you are acquainted (family, friends, etc), why not God's voice?

Satan comes as an angel of light, deceiving many

You have to have a way of verifying it is from God and not satan, And that goes whether you are speaking in an unknown language or hear God speaking in your heart. Far to many people throughout time thought they heard God, when in fact it was not God..

 

[Noose]

You're looking at this backwards, and you seem to be applying non-biblical standards to a biblical issue.

Does Scripture say that the one who speaks in tongues edifies himself, or doesn't it? Understanding is a requirement for others to be edified, not for the speaker.

And which fallacy is this? "if i just throw out some meaningless words i will be edified because the scripture talks of self edification when one prays in tongues".

God created the organ 'tongue' so that we can speak and speaking is communicating and communication is bringing out an understanding from someone's mind/heart to the intended target. Your mind or tongue can be unfruitful if the intended target does not understand what you are saying and therefore there;s no edification. The understanding remains with you and that is what Paul calls self edification.

You can never bring out nothingness from your mind because the mind is never empty, it always has something even if it is not truth.

The spirit is the mind or at least greatly connected to the mind. Now, praying in the spirit is praying with the God given understanding.

The claims that people pray what they don't understand is neither here nor there. It means nothing.

 

[Dino246]

Common sense.

While not necessarily wrong, "appeals to common sense" is definitely not a biblical test for genuineness.

Then the whole tongues argument is also fallacious. Just because the Apostles and the first century church spoke in tongues, alos our tongues must be genuine. Fallacy: Genuine by association.

I haven't made that assertion, so your point is irrelevant.

1 Cor 13:13And now these three remain: faith, hope, and love; but the greatest of these is love.

So, according to you, in the millenium these will remain, faith/hope/love?!
talk of weirdness.

Yes, you do. I have no idea what you're trying to say here.

You'll do well if you read a bible.

My comment was a constructive suggestion; yours is just an insult. If you want to trade insults, you're on the wrong forum.

 

[Dino246]

Which exact verse are you referring to?

1 Corinthians 14:4.

 

[Dino246]

The church is edified because the tongues are interpreted to them for their understanding not because the word of God says they will be edified. Simple logic, if edification comes by understanding, there's no other form of edification that comes without the understanding.

That isn't what Scripture says. You're attempting to make it say something it simply does not say.

The organ tongue was created to bring out the understanding from someone's mind/heart (apart from mixing food during eating). If one fails to bring the understanding they have to others, then it can be said that their understanding has failed or is unfruitful and that is what Paul calls self edification. It is a wrong thing.

No, Paul said that the one who speaks in tongues "edifies himself". Paul does not say that it is "a wrong thing".

 

[Dino246]

And which fallacy is this? "if i just throw out some meaningless words i will be edified because the scripture talks of self edification when one prays in tongues".

I'll let you do your own homework on that, since you aren't likely to accept my response as instructive anyway. When you find it, let us all know, that we may be edified. I won't wait up.

 

[Dino246]

Too funny, if you could just not put "ecstatic utterence" in the place of "tongues" and just read it as "language" you would see the entire doctrine falls apart.
I don't, and it still doesn't.

Of course if someone is speaking a foreign language, common in Corinth btw and no one understands him/her then understanding is only limited to himself.

Why you may ask....because it is his natural language so he understands what he is saying.

This is very common sense instruction about how to deal with such a mixed congregation with various languages....sad how it has been hyper-spiritualized

The context is how to use the gifts of the Spirit in a congregational context, though the instructions in chapter 14 also apply to learned languages. If you're the only person who speaks/understands a language in a particular venue, don't speak in that language. Speaking in one's learned natural language is not a gift of the Holy Spirit. Speaking in a learned second language, or interpreting from it, also is not a gift of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit certainly may empower someone to speak in the local language but that doesn't seem to be what Paul is primarily addressing.

 

[Noose]

I'll let you do your own homework on that, since you aren't likely to accept my response as instructive anyway. When you find it, let us all know, that we may be edified. I won't wait up.

You think yourself as an authority in logical fallacies but i have already told you, logic doesn't work in matters spiritual. Logic is misplaced when it comes to the bible ; talk of virgin birth and resurrection and salvation and healing but logic?! no thanks, try it somewhere else.