Amillennialists...Here's a chance to state your case.

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ and, as I've said before, that (in the bold) is the exact opposite thing from what Matt24:29-31/Isa27:12-13 speaks of ("gather together"... TO a certain place on the earth)

 

[garee]

#2 I think you mean the end of the Mosaic Age.....Jesus referenced the Temple....and that no stone would be left on another stone.

I don't think the reference is to literal stones. Stones can be used as a foundation, not seen .

There are still a remnant of stones used as idol worship today called the Wailing Wall. Unbelieving Jew looking for Jesus to come the first time.

When applying the prescription found in 2 Corinthians 4 It points to the time of reformation restoring the order to before their kings in Israel before there was a temple as that seen to represent the holy place of God .The place of eternal faith (God's hidden glory) cannot replaced by the temporal things seen.

The time period that the Jews were used as a parable had come to a end . The stone fell. The bride of Christ as a kingdom of priest are the temple as lively stones that does make up the spiritual house of God as His bride, the church.

While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal. 2 Corinthians 4:18

1 Peter 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

 

[UnderGrace]

But I'm saying that it does NOT harm the credibility of scripture to point out that Jesus' own wording "ALL" in verse 32 necessarily INCLUDES "ALL" of what was just stated in v.24 ("...and they shall be led away captive into all the nations: AND Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles UNTIL the TIMES of the Gentiles be fulfilled" [which started in 606bc with Neb's "statue/image" with Neb as "head of gold" ("Gentile domination over Israel") and which is distinct from "the FULNESS of the Gentiles" in Rom11:25]).



As I see it, it is no different from defending "OSAS/eternal security" from those who believe they see IN SCRIPTURE reasons to disbelieve that... (because of not grasping context, sequence, definitions, and so forth...)

I think the point that Sproul is making is that eschatology spills over into world and many people are aware of Christian predictions, and this does harm to the credibility of scripture.

You do realize that a generation from 1948 was 1988 and when nothing happened Christians looked like fools as they had many times before that.

 

[UnderGrace]

I don't think the reference is to literal stones. Stones can be used as a foundation, not seen .

There are still a remnant of stones used as idol worship today called the Wailing Wall. Unbelieving Jew looking for Jesus to come the first time.

When applying the prescription found in 2 Corinthians 4 It points to the time of reformation restoring the order to before their kings in Israel before there was a temple as that seen to represent the holy place of God .The place of eternal faith (God's hidden glory) cannot replaced by the temporal things seen.

The time period that the Jews were used as a parable had come to a end . The stone fell. The bride of Christ as a kingdom of priest are the temple as lively stones that does make up the spiritual house of God as His bride, the church.

While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal. 2 Corinthians 4:18

1 Peter 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

That wall is not the Temple wall, and Jesus knew exactly what he was stating and there is no indication that was a metaphor/hyperbole or figurative language given the context and the historical records bear out the Temple was completely destroyed.

There shall not be one stone left here, they were at the Temple when He made the statement, he was not telling a parable.

 

[Melach]

And they did....reference to the end of the Mosaic Age...this is the Christian Age

and they did? are you saying the heaven and earth passed away already? this is crazy now...

what did i misunderstand lolz? i just came home and i saw the same earth and heaven.

 

[UnderGrace]

and they did? are you saying the heaven and earth passed away already? this is crazy now...

what did i misunderstand lolz? i just came home and i saw the same earth and heaven.

"Heaven and Earth" in Jewish writings refers to the Temple that is the place where heaven and earth met.
Here..I think Spurgeon makes a good case.

C.H. Spurgeon said:

Did you ever regret the absence of the burnt-offering, or the red heifer, or any one of the sacrifices and rites of the Jews? Did you ever pine for the feast of tabernacle, or the dedication? No, because, though these were like the old heavens and earth to the Jewish believers, they have passed away, and we now live under the new heavens and a new earth, so far as the dispensation of divine teaching is concerned. The substance is come, and the shadow has gone: and we do not remember it." (Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, vol. xxxvii, p. 354).​

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I think the point that Sproul is making is that eschatology spills over into world and many people are aware of Christian predictions, and this does harm to the credibility of scripture.

I didn't see his point as having very much to do with our modern-day words, but with Jesus' own words (found in Scripture).

You do realize that a generation from 1948 was 1988 and when nothing happened Christians looked like fools as they had many times before that.

Aside from the uncanny facts that "1948 is exactly 2520 [360-day-]yrs from 537bc [the Return to ISRAEL, in history (and 70yrs from 606bc)]" and "1967 is exactly 2520 [360-day-]yrs from 518bc [which was 70-yrs from 587bc and its "temple destruction" day]" [where Ezekiel 4 minus 2Chron36:21 times Lev26 equals 2520 years],... this has nothing to do with "what" people today SAY will or should happen "when" (predictions and so called "prophecies," and so forth).

I'm just saying, what people say or don't say has nothing really to do with whether Scripture itself says "anything-prophecy-related" (for lack of a better way of saying it )

I mean, we aren't planning, for church services tomorrow, to invite a "hard atheist" to preach us a sermon about all of the "contradictions" scripture (of course ) has, right??

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

EDIT: 587bc *Jerusalem destruction day... should say

 

[UnderGrace]

I didn't see his point as having very much to do with our modern-day words, but with Jesus' own words (found in Scripture).




Aside from the uncanny facts that "1948 is exactly 2520 [360-day-]yrs from 537bc [the Return to ISRAEL, in history]" and "1967 is exactly 2520 [360-day-]yrs from 518bc" [where Ezekiel 4 minus 2Chron36:21 times Lev26 equals 2520 years],... this has nothing to do with "what" people today SAY will or should happen "when" (predictions and so called "prophecies," and so forth). I'm just saying, what people say or don't say has nothing really to do with whether Scripture itself says "anything-prophecy-related" (for lack of a better way of saying it )

I mean, we aren't planning, for church services tomorrow, to invite a "hard atheist" to preach us a sermon about all of the "contradictions" scripture (of course ) has, right??

I understand your position I do, however it is just from my experiences and Sproul spoke to me on this,

I take his point seriously in may ways ....as it relates to false signs and wonders in denominations to failed predictions, I move about in the real world on a daily basis as most of us do I am sure....and what I see when I try to point towards Jesus is lost credibility because of these antics, the salt has lost its saltiness and of no value.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

When the disciples asked Him the question(s) they did in Matthew 24:3 (re: "the end [singular] of the age [singular]"), it was BASED ON what He had ALREADY spoken to them about in Matthew 13:[24],30,39,40,49-50 (when the angels will "REAP" ["WHEAT harvest"])

… the problem comes when ppl mistake the phrase [used there] "the kingdom of the heavens" to be [incorrectly] meaning "UP IN Heaven" (it's not that). What they understood correctly, is that "the age [singular] to come" (Matt12:32) FOLLOWS "the end [singular] of the age [singular]" (and the word "age [singular]" is always used in connection to "time/history" on the earth [in contrast to the phrase "the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]" which we call "eternity/the-eternal-state/forever"]) [they did NOT YET understand the intervening "this present age [singular]" spoken of in the later epistles];

...so "the kingdom of the heavens" = "the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom, commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth [His VISIBLE manifestation to the earth, and involves a specific, limited time period LEADING UP TO that], in that Matt13:[24],30,39,40,49-50 passage, upon which their QUESTION to Jesus in the LATER Matt24:3 (Olivet Discourse) passage (and His response follows on from there, in both chpts 24-25)

Besides the Matthew 24:3 / Matthew 13:[24]30,39,40,49-50 when the angels will "reap" point, above...


^ … and along those same lines, here are at least 12 other kinds of contexts that go alongside that same [future] point in time (His Second Coming to the earth FOR the earthly MK age [NOT our Rapture, which is other contexts separate from these references]):

--ALL "Son of man cometh/coming/shall come/etc" passages

--"the kingdom of the heavens" (the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom)

--"the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" passages (ditto the above; referred to in a few different passages)

--the "G347 - shall sit down [around a table / at a meal]" of Matt8:11 and its parallel

--the entire Olivet Discourse (except for the section of Lk21:12-24a about the events of 70ad), so Matt24-25/Mk13/Lk21

--the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" references of Lk18:8[chpt-17-end] "avenge IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]," [also Romans 16:20 (distinct LOCATION, same time-frame) and Rev1:1/22:6] (specific limited future time period leading UP TO the earthly MK, which will commence at His Second Coming to the earth)

--"the end [singular] of the age [singular]" in Matthew 13:24,30,39,40,49-50 (also Matt24:3 and His response); as well as "the age [singular] to come" which follows the other, sequentially, but found in Matt12:32 (the MK) located in the text before the Matt13 passage

--the two "RETURN" passages of Luke 12:36-37,38,40,42-44 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." THEN the meal;and Luke 19:12,15,17,19 "RETURN," when He will deal out responsibilities regarding "have thou authority over 10 cities" and "likewise... be thou over 5" (and the parallels to these; see also Rev2:26-27, Rev19:15b ["SHALL [future] shepherd them [the nations]..."], Rev20:4, etc)

--ALL "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" passages (for those not entering the earthly MK time period, as ALL "saints/the righteous" WILL be present and accounted FOR, to enjoy)

--the "ye [the 12] shall sit on 12 thrones, judgING the 12 tribes of Israel" (Lk22:30,16,18 and Matt19:28 [compare with Matt25:31-34 for TIMING: His 2nd Coming to the earth])

--about eight to TEN "BLESSED" passages in the gospels [correlating with Dan12:12's "BLESSED" (specific time slot ["Blessed is he that waiteth and cometh to the 1335 days"]--referring to "still-living" persons, at the time of His Second Coming to the earth) and Rev19:9's "BLESSED" both/all pertaining to their entrance into the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, commencing upon His RETURN to the earth at the time of His Second Coming to the earth]

--the Transfiguration (a picture of His Second Coming glory)



...pretty sure there are more

(all connected)… Jesus spoke of it plenty throughout the gospels (whereas SOME things it was necessary to remain "hidden" until AFTER His crucifixion [1Cor2:7-8; John 16:13-15])

 

[UnderGrace]

Besides the Matthew 24:3 / Matthew 13:[24]30,39,40,49-50 when the angels will "reap" point, above...


^ … and along those same lines, here are at least 12 other kinds of contexts that go alongside that same [future] point in time (His Second Coming to the earth FOR the earthly MK age [NOT our Rapture, which is other contexts separate from these references]):

--ALL "Son of man cometh/coming/shall come/etc" passages

--"the kingdom of the heavens" (the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom)

--"the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" passages (ditto the above; referred to in a few different passages)

--the "G347 - shall sit down [around a table / at a meal]" of Matt8:11 and its parallel

--the entire Olivet Discourse (except for the section of Lk21:12-24a about the events of 70ad), so Matt24-25/Mk13/Lk21

--the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" references of Lk18:8[chpt-17-end] "avenge IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]," [also Romans 16:20 (distinct LOCATION, same time-frame) and Rev1:1/22:6] (specific limited future time period leading UP TO the earthly MK, which will commence at His Second Coming to the earth)

--"the end [singular] of the age [singular]" in Matthew 13:24,30,39,40,49-50 (also Matt24:3 and His response); as well as "the age [singular] to come" which follows the other, sequentially, but found in Matt12:32 (the MK) located in the text before the Matt13 passage

--the two "RETURN" passages of Luke 12:36-37,38,40,42-44 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." THEN the meal;and Luke 19:12,15,17,19 "RETURN," when He will deal out responsibilities regarding "have thou authority over 10 cities" and "likewise... be thou over 5" (and the parallels to these; see also Rev2:26-27, Rev19:15b ["SHALL [future] shepherd them [the nations]..."], Rev20:4, etc)

--ALL "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" passages (for those not entering the earthly MK time period, as ALL "saints/the righteous" WILL be present and accounted FOR, to enjoy)

--the "ye [the 12] shall sit on 12 thrones, judgING the 12 tribes of Israel" (Lk22:30,16,18 and Matt19:28 [compare with Matt25:31-34 for TIMING: His 2nd Coming to the earth])

--about eight to TEN "BLESSED" passages in the gospels [correlating with Dan12:12's "BLESSED" (specific time slot ["Blessed is he that waiteth and cometh to the 1335 days"]--referring to "still-living" persons, at the time of His Second Coming to the earth) and Rev19:9's "BLESSED" both/all pertaining to their entrance into the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, commencing upon His RETURN to the earth at the time of His Second Coming to the earth]

--the Transfiguration (a picture of His Second Coming glory)



...pretty sure there are more

(all connected)… Jesus spoke of it plenty throughout the gospels (whereas SOME things it was necessary to remain "hidden" until AFTER His crucifixion [1Cor2:7-8; John 16:13-15])

Yup and 70 AD is after the crucifixion.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I take his point seriously in may ways ....as it relates to false signs and wonders in denominations to failed predictions, I move about in the real world on a daily basis as most of us do I am sure....and what I see when I try to point towards Jesus is lost credibility because of these antics, the salt has lost its saltiness and of no value.

Well, I can understand and certainly AGREE with you here. You may recall that I've said (in my pre-trib viewpoint) that ALL of the "biblically-defined" SIGNS take place FOLLOWING our Rapture, and ALL of "the beginning of birth PANGS [plural]" that Jesus spoke of, do AS WELL (take place FOLLOWING our Rapture) and which are the equivalent of the SEALS of Rev6 (starting with the "man of sin be revealed" at the START of the trib, not its MIDDLE nor its END).

This is NOT to say we are to have NO CLUE WHATSOEVER (I believe Scripture itself discloses far more than we often realize, on that...)

 

[Melach]

"Heaven and Earth" in Jewish writings refers to the Temple that is the place where heaven and earth met.
Here..I think Spurgeon makes a good case.

C.H. Spurgeon said:

Did you ever regret the absence of the burnt-offering, or the red heifer, or any one of the sacrifices and rites of the Jews? Did you ever pine for the feast of tabernacle, or the dedication? No, because, though these were like the old heavens and earth to the Jewish believers, they have passed away, and we now live under the new heavens and a new earth, so far as the dispensation of divine teaching is concerned. The substance is come, and the shadow has gone: and we do not remember it." (Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, vol. xxxvii, p. 354).​

thats interesting quote but did you know dear friend that c.h. spurgeon was a premillennialist?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Yup and 70 AD is after the crucifixion.

On that point, I meant all of the Scriptures WRITTEN following His crucifixion (so some time after 32ad... not huge amounts of time though... and I believe the LATER [95ad] Revelation [1:1 (/7:3)] correlates with what Matthew 22:8's "THEN SAITH HE to his servants" [necessarily following the Matt22:7's "70ad events" correlating with Lk21:23,20]… that SEQUENCE issue again [that is also disclosed within in the Olivet Discourse])

 

[azamzimtoti]

thats interesting quote but did you know dear friend that c.h. spurgeon was a premillennialist?

That seems to be a matter of debate:

http://archive.spurgeon.org/eschat.php

 

[Melach]

That seems to be a matter of debate:

http://archive.spurgeon.org/eschat.php

no he clearly says it. i have read it with my own eyes.

did you read the link you gave? he says those things right there in the link.

if he says first resurrection is of the saints for 1000 on earth, and then after it rest of the dead resurrect. i think its hard to debate if he was premillennialist?

 

[UnderGrace]

thats interesting quote but did you know dear friend that c.h. spurgeon was a premillennialist?

Yeah, too bad he got that part wrong..... LOL

 

[Melach]

Yeah, too bad he got that part wrong..... LOL

i like you a lot. you are very sweet and friendly.

are you a calvinist yourself? they are usually not as sweet as you, im surprised. i see you post first sproul then spurgeon, both calvies so i ask.

i agree amill case is also strong, like the dispensational case. i think all the theories have merit or else they wouldnt exist.

my favorite about amill view is this, when you have someone ask you what happens next its very easy you dont need charts or any long teaching. you can just tell them look listen Jesus returns soon and will do final judgment on humanity, God has appointed a day to judge everyone and then we go to lake of fire or new heaven and new earth. and today is day of salvation no second chances in millennium or after rapture.

thats easy to say to anyone. you can prove it by just reading the sheep and goats to them, very fast and they get it. matthew 25:31-46. i know the premill have different look on that, but i would say that amill is the way any man reads those verses if he isnt provided with outside influences or scriptures. but only that part.
(just like people read revelation 20 in premill way if no other verses or outside influence is presented, nobody ever gets to amill by just reading revelation 20, in my opinion) to be fair.

i am just writing my thoughts i dont know why. im a very lonely man so i like to write here lolz. have a blessed day/night everyone.

 

[azamzimtoti]

This is what I found on the link posted:

Regarding the Millennial reign of Christ, Spurgeon was far from silent. It was not a topic that he gave a great deal of attention to, but when he did speak of it he spoke with a consistent view. In 1865 he stated this:

If I read the word aright, and it is honest to admit that there is much room for difference of opinion here, the day will come, when the Lord Jesus will descend from heaven with a shout, with the trump of the archangel and the voice of God. Some think that this descent of the Lord will be post-millennial — that is, after the thousand years of his reign. I cannot think so. I conceive that the advent will be pre-millennial; that he will come first; and then will come the millennium as the result of his personal reign upon earth181 [emphasis ours].

 

[UnderGrace]

i like you a lot. you are very sweet and friendly.

are you a calvinist yourself? they are usually not as sweet as you, im surprised. i see you post first sproul then spurgeon, both calvies so i ask.

i agree amill case is also strong, like the dispensational case. i think all the theories have merit or else they wouldnt exist.

my favorite about amill view is this, when you have someone ask you what happens next its very easy you dont need charts or any long teaching. you can just tell them look listen Jesus returns soon and will do final judgment on humanity, God has appointed a day to judge everyone and then we go to lake of fire or new heaven and new earth. and today is day of salvation no second chances in millennium or after rapture.

thats easy to say to anyone. you can prove it by just reading the sheep and goats to them, very fast and they get it. matthew 25:31-46. i know the premill have different look on that, but i would say that amill is the way any man reads those verses if he isnt provided with outside influences or scriptures. but only that part.
(just like people read revelation 20 in premill way if no other verses or outside influence is presented, nobody ever gets to amill by just reading revelation 20, in my opinion) to be fair.

i am just writing my thoughts i dont know why. im a very lonely man so i like to write here lolz. have a blessed day/night everyone.

Actually, I am polar opposite of Calvinism in terms of TULIP...LOL....although I do respect the "rational" conservative approach they have towards scripture.

Those in the Reformed tradition that hold of the Preterist view have not been taken in by a false prophecy concerning modern day Israel so I pay attention to what they state.