Unitarianism (Anti-Trinity)

[Seriously_Cool_Wife]

I don't know much, and can't comment on much... but my husband and I went to a wedding in a Unitarian church once. The pamphlets and things they had out in their hallway freaked me out. They had a combination of wiccan, jewish, christian, agnostic, etc... information. all in one place.

I get the desire to WANT to have us all live in a 1960's style free-love system. But reality is that everything can't be right. Honestly, either Jesus was God's son, or he wasn't. You can't accept one person's beliefs and tell them that they are right, then turn around and whisper to the next person, "Hes not enlightened yet, just go along with it.".... you will be outright lying to one or the other of them, and is lying right? of course, without there being a God to tell us... maybe lying is right after all....

I'm glad there's a God... I'm glad that there is truth verses untruth... I'm glad there is a dividing line between what is right and wrong. I can't imagine being "spiritual" without being alive in Christ!

 

[Scotth1960]

There is no indication of persons there or elsewhere. It is inferred.

Would you please provide scripture that says "persons". Not inferrence, but scripture. It is presumptive to superimpose an extra-biblical word upon the Word. Scripture with the actual word person in reference to the Father and the Holy Spirit. Thank you, Brother.

Dear PneuamPsucheSoma, Provide one Scripture that teaches everything a Christian believes must be stated in the Scripture? The Scripture does not contain a list of which books are in the Scripture, does it? How do we know what the Bible is, and which books are, or are not, in it, when the Scriptures themselves do not say? Also, it is not the Bible, but the Church, that is "the pillar and ground of the truth" (1 Tim. 3:15). So, we must turn to the Church to know what the Bible is. Some people do not know what the Church is, or where the Churches are in their towns. Well, the Church is defined by the First Council of Constantinople of 381 AD, and this Council made the Creed that did not contain the words "And the Son". That should be a clue to identify the true churches. In Erie PA Scott Harrington

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Dear Friends, Matthew 28:19 substantiates and proves that the one God is three persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

Dear PneuamPsucheSoma, Provide one Scripture that teaches everything a Christian believes must be stated in the Scripture? The Scripture does not contain a list of which books are in the Scripture, does it? How do we know what the Bible is, and which books are, or are not, in it, when the Scriptures themselves do not say? Also, it is not the Bible, but the Church, that is "the pillar and ground of the truth" (1 Tim. 3:15). So, we must turn to the Church to know what the Bible is. Some people do not know what the Church is, or where the Churches are in their towns. Well, the Church is defined by the First Council of Constantinople of 381 AD, and this Council made the Creed that did not contain the words "And the Son". That should be a clue to identify the true churches. In Erie PA Scott Harrington

That wasn't my point. Many things aren't specifically in scripture.

I was referring to your previous post (bolded top) that said Matt. 28:19 substantiates and proves that the one God is three persons. I was asking for other scripture to substantiate and prove God is persons, since Matt. 28:16 does not.

How does that substantiate and prove God is three persons when it doesn't say persons? You must mean you believe through inference that it implies that. That is not substantiation and proof; there's a significant difference.

Just call it what it is: belief based on inference of perceived implication. But don't declare a scripture substantiates and proves something it does not say.

The true God-model is clearly in scripture, but gets passed over to assert a belief based on inference.

Please admit it is belief based on inference, or directly substantiate and prove (as you said) God is persons from scripture.

 

[wakeup]

Matthew 28:19 states that Christians are to be baptized in the name (singular) of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit (plural). Thus we have in this verse one God "the name" in three persons (the Trinity) "the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit". God is not only the Father, or the Father alone. God is the Father, is the Son, and is the Holy Spirit. Unitarianism is heresy and is an attempt at a return to Judaism by people who still want to consider Christ to be their prophet and teacher in the NT. Judaism rejects the whole NT anyway. Unitarianism at least theoretically uses the NT, although it doesn't believe what the NT says when the NT says that "Jesus is LORD". Go figure!

you have left out the holy mother of god in your trinity????
it should be, holy mother, the father, the son, and the holy spirit.
thats better , what you say?? what a confusion.
let the wicked stay wicked still, let the righteous, stay rightoeus still:

 

[wakeup]

Dear PneuamPsucheSoma, Provide one Scripture that teaches everything a Christian believes must be stated in the Scripture? The Scripture does not contain a list of which books are in the Scripture, does it? How do we know what the Bible is, and which books are, or are not, in it, when the Scriptures themselves do not say? Also, it is not the Bible, but the Church, that is "the pillar and ground of the truth" (1 Tim. 3:15). So, we must turn to the Church to know what the Bible is. Some people do not know what the Church is, or where the Churches are in their towns. Well, the Church is defined by the First Council of Constantinople of 381 AD, and this Council made the Creed that did not contain the words "And the Son". That should be a clue to identify the true churches. In Erie PA Scott Harrington

areare

you are putting the church===above ===the bible. (the word of god) ( jesus ) how can anybody getaway from punishment??
for your info. only god is above his word. not mother mary, not the church not the so called holy father in rome. god is not the
author of confusion, because this is what it is. total confusion.
ony in the kingdom ,knowledge will be abundant,the teachers will be
holy, not corrupt like what we find these days.

 

[wakeup]

That wasn't my point. Many things aren't specifically in scripture.

I was referring to your previous post (bolded top) that said Matt. 28:19 substantiates and proves that the one God is three persons. I was asking for other scripture to substantiate and prove God is persons, since Matt. 28:16 does not.

How does that substantiate and prove God is three persons when it doesn't say persons? You must mean you believe through inference that it implies that. That is not substantiation and proof; there's a significant difference.

Just call it what it is: belief based on inference of perceived implication. But don't declare a scripture substantiates and proves something it does not say.

The true God-model is clearly in scripture, but gets passed over to assert a belief based on inference.

Please admit it is belief based on inference, or directly substantiate and prove (as you said) God is persons from scripture.

thank you brother , god is one, there is no one beside me he says, for i am he.
GOD, his own word, and in his word is truth.( the spirit of truth ) the holy spirit.
not 3 gods in one, this is the eye that can not see, forever blinded..

wakeup

 

[Scotth1960]

That wasn't my point. Many things aren't specifically in scripture.

I was referring to your previous post (bolded top) that said Matt. 28:19 substantiates and proves that the one God is three persons. I was asking for other scripture to substantiate and prove God is persons, since Matt. 28:16 does not.

How does that substantiate and prove God is three persons when it doesn't say persons? You must mean you believe through inference that it implies that. That is not substantiation and proof; there's a significant difference.

Just call it what it is: belief based on inference of perceived implication. But don't declare a scripture substantiates and proves something it does not say.

The true God-model is clearly in scripture, but gets passed over to assert a belief based on inference.

Please admit it is belief based on inference, or directly substantiate and prove (as you said) God is persons from scripture.

Your reasoning seems based on the sola scriptura error. The idea that everything must be spelled out word-for-word in scripture before a Christian can believe it. Which Scripture says "by the Bible alone"?

 

[resurrection33]

So, I was listening to a small debate between Dr. Michael Brown and Sir Anthony Buzzard
Search Results anthony buzzard : Line of Fire

My question is, how is unitarianism, stating that there is one being and person in God (the Father),
wrong?

I am not a Unitarian, but I believe God is one person, not three. He simultaneously has three “roles”—that of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, just as a man can simultaneously be a father, son, and husband.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Your reasoning seems based on the sola scriptura error. The idea that everything must be spelled out word-for-word in scripture before a Christian can believe it. Which Scripture says "by the Bible alone"?

You still misunderstand me. I do NOT affirm the contention of Sola Scriptura. It was a useful approach to contest such things as the doctrine of indulgences, but is not a precept of the Word itself.

I'm referring to the Trinitarian contention (which you personally asserted) that "persons" is substantiated and proven by certain passages when it is merely inferred from perceived implication. Even apart from Sola Scriptura, one cannot be so adamant about such implication and inference.

"Person" is inferred, not stated. It is doctrine derived from perceived implication. The most staunch but forthright Trinitarians can agree to this. Whether one agrees or not, it is a true and valid simple assertion.

Can you admit that "persons" is inference? Or do you still contend "persons" is substantiated and proven? Thank you, Brother.

 

[zackabba]

I am not a Unitarian, but I believe God is one person, not three. He simultaneously has three “roles”—that of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, just as a man can simultaneously be a father, son, and husband.

I think you mean one being there

God Bless

 

[zackabba]

Hey Penuema,

I'm just curious, what do you believe?


God Bless

 

[Scotth1960]

areare

you are putting the church===above ===the bible. (the word of god) ( jesus ) how can anybody getaway from punishment??
for your info. only god is above his word. not mother mary, not the church not the so called holy father in rome. god is not the
author of confusion, because this is what it is. total confusion.
ony in the kingdom ,knowledge will be abundant,the teachers will be
holy, not corrupt like what we find these days.

Where did you get the Bible, from yourself, or from the church? If there is no church, there is no Bible. It is wrong to pit the Bible against the Church, and the Church against the Bible. They belong together, for God puts them together. Man's private interpretations and traditions of men rends them asunder. The head of the Church is not the pope of Rome, but Jesus Christ our Lord God and Saviour. What you are really saying is I am putting the Church above your interpretation of the Bible. Not above the Bible itself. Your interpretation of the Bible is not the same as the Word of God itself. Only the Church knows what the Bible means, because the Church is "the pillar and ground of the truth" (1 Timothy 3:15). All this confusion about the book of Revelation among Protestants proves they are misinterpreting Scripture. The Bible is not a tool in private hands to prove each and every man-made doctrine. Some translations of the Bible don't agree with what the Church teaches, and are translated according to the traditions of men rather than the truth of the Holy Spirit. As in the NWT of Jehovah's Witnesses Watchtower Society of New York and Pennsylvania.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Hey Penuema,

I'm just curious, what do you believe?


God Bless

I've been pondering when-where to present it. Possibly in your thread.

 

[zackabba]

I've been pondering when-where to present it. Possibly in your thread.

Oh, I think you already did that in another thread, didn't you?

If there's something else you want to add, though, that you didn't mention, feel free to add it on.

God Bless!

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Oh, I think you already did that in another thread, didn't you?

If there's something else you want to add, though, that you didn't mention, feel free to add it on.

God Bless!

I itemized a comparative affirmation of tenets, but haven't "dropped the bomb", so to speak. As simple as it is, and as much Scripture and word etymologies as I provide; most simply cling to their own default beliefs and have difficulty even conceptualizing beyond Trinity three-persons. I usually end up having to caricature to Trinity, and doing a lot of "debriefing". Most aren't really searching for a deeper truth in this area; they want what they already have. That's all usually compounded when I ask for a thorough and lengthy apologetic from Triniarians, and virtually nobody can do so. Then when I present about 100 difficult questions, most become mute or hostile, or both.

 

[HeavenwithinYOU]

THIS IS ALL THAT MATTERS - PEOPLE need to stop studying the bible and begin seeking heaven and HIS righteousness and ask for the Living Water to burst forth from within. PEOPLE treat the New TEstament as the Tree of knowledge instead of the Tree of eternal LIFE seeking to be ONE WITH GOD NOW AND JESUS TOO!

God bless you all and DO this ... DO it to the tee sisters and brothers.

YouTube - Jesus Christ Testimony, Finding Jesus Christ, Jesus loves you. <----- PLEASE watch my testimony, much love people.

[FONT=&quot]•John 17:21 - Jesus said: "That all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be IN us."
John 8:31 - "IF you ABIDE in my word, you are TRULY my disciples."
• John 14:21: "He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."
• Luke 14:26 - "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters--yes, even his own life--he cannot be my disciple."
• John 7:37 - For Jesus stood and cried, saying on the day of the Feast, "If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his BELLY shall flow rivers of Living Water!"[/FONT]

 

[Berean]

I do hate jumping into debates or topics late, but I do feel I must speak my peace.

I itemized a comparative affirmation of tenets, but haven't "dropped the bomb", so to speak. As simple as it is, and as much Scripture and word etymologies as I provide; most simply cling to their own default beliefs and have difficulty even conceptualizing beyond Trinity three-persons. I usually end up having to caricature to Trinity, and doing a lot of "debriefing". Most aren't really searching for a deeper truth in this area; they want what they already have. That's all usually compounded when I ask for a thorough and lengthy apologetic from Triniarians, and virtually nobody can do so. Then when I present about 100 difficult questions, most become mute or hostile, or both.

You assume there has not been rigorous detailed research on this doctrine. Actually, if we look throughout church history there has been a great affirmation of this doctrine. I can personally think of numerous church fathers that have done much research and defense of this doctrine. For example, Irenaeus, (A.D. 202) Clement of Alexandria, (A.D. 212) Tertullian, (died after A.D.220) and the great defender of the Trinity, Athanasius (A.D. 373). These are just 4 men who, within 400 years after Jesus' death, recognized this doctrine. Also, we have the Council of Nicea in A.D. 325 which affirms Trinitarian qualities of Jesus. Those are just outside sources. Lets get to the nitty gritty.

John 1:1, 14 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth." John's Gospel states the word was always in being. Jesus became flesh. The word. Jesus was God.

Genesis 1:26 Then God said, "Let US make man in OUR image, according to OUR likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." As well as Gen 3:22 and Gen 11:7.

Isaiah 6:8 Then I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for US?" Then I said, "Here am I. Send me!"

Isaiah 9:6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will [fn] rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, MIGHTY GOD, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

Matthew 3:16-17 After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him, and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased."
The three are doing something in these verses showing their distinct personages.

John 14:26 "But the Helper, the HOLY SPIRIT, whom the FATHER will send in MY name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
Once again we see the three doing different activities.

Acts 10:28 You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.

John 20:28 Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"
If Jesus was simply a rabbi or man he would have rebuked Thomas in this situation. He did not.

Hebrews 1:3 (verses preceding are talking about Jesus) And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

Titus 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:

Col 2:9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,


These are just a few verses that show how the bible affirms the doctrine of the Trinity. If you deny the Trinity you cannot have a proper view of the atonement or penal substitution. (God sending the son into the world to redeem sinners.)

Also, when trying to defend your belief in a doctrine one DOES NOT state one verse and imply it's truth. A person must take all information possible and reason from what is known. I do admit those aren't all of the verses pertaining to this doctrine, however I did make much effort in putting evidence for proof.

The Trinitarian doctrine has been an Orthodox Christian belief for many centuries and its conclusion has come from biblical text. The evidence is overwhelming. I hope and pray my post will both edify, enlighten, and encourage believers.

God speed,

Berean

 

[HeavenwithinYOU]

There is more than believing... its about receiving God within you through and WITH Christ ruling your Spirit literally molding you into Himself, this is where most miss the mark.

•John 17:21 - Jesus said: "That all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be IN us."
John 8:31 - "IF you ABIDE in my word, you are TRULY my disciples."
• John 14:21: "He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."
• Ephesians 2:14 - For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.

• Romans 8:9 -- "You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ."
• Rev 3:20 - "If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.”
• John 7:37 - For Jesus stood and cried, saying on the day of the Feast, "If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his BELLY shall flow rivers of Living Water!"
• Luke 17:21 "nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you."


MY Testimony --- > YouTube - Jesus Christ Testimony, Finding Jesus Christ, Jesus loves you.

..

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

I do hate jumping into debates or topics late, but I do feel I must speak my peace.

Please do no mistake my succeeding firmness as being lovelessness, anger, or arrogance.

You assume there has not been rigorous detailed research on this doctrine.

I assume nothing. On the contrary, over a 13-year period I have copiously read and studied the Ante-Nicene Fathers and Early Church Fathers, as well as extensive history related to all the Ecumenical Councils and the Filioque debacle's role in the East-West schizm, etc.

Actually, if we look throughout church history there has been a great affirmation of this doctrine. I can personally think of numerous church fathers that have done much research and defense of this doctrine. For example, Irenaeus, (A.D. 202) Clement of Alexandria, (A.D. 212) Tertullian, (died after A.D.220) and the great defender of the Trinity, Athanasius (A.D. 373).

I've extensively read them all, and many others you haven't mentioned here. Theophilus first referred to a Triad of God-His Word-His Wisdom in 180AD. Tertullian first penned the term Trinitas in the late-100s/early-200s, and presented his anti-Monarchianism tyrade in 212AD at about the same time he became a part of the Montanist sect.

I think you must be assuming there weren't multiple other well-developed God-model formulations during this time. Tertullian was responding to a well-developed Monarchian (Oneness) doctrine in his 212AD writing. All six of the major God-models were established and intact during this same period.

These are just 4 men who, within 400 years after Jesus' death,

Think about those words for a moment... 400 years. Do you really think that is a short time period? Actually, it would be about 300 from the Resurrection/Ascension to Nicea, but still... Even by 180AD, Theophilus' Triad was 150 years after the Res/Asc. The USA is only 235 years old, for relative perspective.

recognized this doctrine. Also, we have the Council of Nicea in A.D. 325 which affirms Trinitarian qualities of Jesus. Those are just outside sources.

Yes. And that's a one-sentence gross oversimplification of the historical "landscape" of that time and culture. A few scattered dates and people, etc. do not represent what was going on during this full 300 years during doctrinal development and understanding that led to orthodoxy. This summary itself hasn't even been a glimpse of reality about that time period.

Lets get to the nitty gritty.

Yes, let's. The ANFs and ECFs and history haven't really been addressed, and the Word is the final and only Truth.[/QUOTE]

John 1:1, 14 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth." John's Gospel states the word was always in being. Jesus became flesh. The word. Jesus was God.

Affirmed. (Perhaps you should read my extensive affirmation a few posts back.). The Word is Deity. The Word became flesh.

Genesis 1:26 Then God said, "Let US make man in OUR image, according to OUR likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." As well as Gen 3:22 and Gen 11:7.

The tired argument based on selected Hebrew single-noun/plural-pronoun usage is less than credible. Spirit is a feminine noun; is the Holy Spirit then a Divine woman-person? A she? Then in Greek, it's neuter rather than masculine or feminine. Does that mean the Holy Spirit turned from a she to an it because of the Incarnation? Did Jesus neuter the Holy Spirit? No, that would be absurd. Just like using a handful of non-quantifying intensive-plurals to represent a Trinity apologetic. It's a language structure, not a foundation for doctrinal formulation; and it's bad scholarship. It's eisegesis, not exegesis.

Isaiah 6:8 Then I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for US?" Then I said, "Here am I. Send me!"

See above. Why have you not posted the overwhelming majority of singular pronoun renderings? Exegesis would take them all together; eisegesis pulls out the minority of perceived exceptions to misapply to an understanding taken TO scripture rather than one taken FROM scripture. The early Hebrews were Monotheists and had no issues with these usages referring to the one true God. It is Pluralis Excellentiae; a plural of immensity, not quantity.

Isaiah 9:6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will [fn] rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, MIGHTY GOD, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

Affirmed. (Please read my previous lengthy affirmation.)

Matthew 3:16-17 After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him, and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased."
The three are doing something in these verses showing their distinct personages.

Yes, the three are doing something showing their distinction. (Again, read my affirmations.). That distinction is not one of discrete persons. It is inferred by Trinitarians. This actually supports the non-Trinitarian truth, but I haven't outlined it yet. There is clear distinction between F-S-HS. That distinction is NOT discrete persons, and scripture nowhere says it is. Person(s) is a creedal superimposition upon the Word. A word (person-s) is not THE Word.

All the Trinitarians are gonna be mad or silentm, or both, by the time this runs its course; especially if I don't disclose the truth. There is no way to declare the Father and the Holy Spirit as persons besides inference.

John 14:26 "But the Helper, the HOLY SPIRIT, whom the FATHER will send in MY name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
Once again we see the three doing different activities.

Three WHAT? Yes, they are three and distinct. They are not persons. Show they are all three discrete persons. It's extra-biblical inference.

Acts 10:28 You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.

Notice it says God twice, not Father.

John 20:28 Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"
If Jesus was simply a rabbi or man he would have rebuked Thomas in this situation. He did not.

I have adamantly affirmed the Deity of Christ. Affirmed... again.

Hebrews 1:3 (verses preceding are talking about Jesus) And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

Affirmed. I hope you're not trying to represent "the right hand" as a location. It's not.

Titus 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

Why are you reverting to the Deity of Christ? I have repeatedly affirmed it. Trinity isn't inherent in the Deity of Christ, though Trinitatians contend it is.

2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:

Deity long since affirmed. Doesn't validate Trinity.

Col 2:9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,

Affirmed. If you only knew what this actually means, instead of proof-texting to defend 1.5 millennia of orthodox indoctrination.

These are just a few verses that show how the bible affirms the doctrine of the Trinity.

No. The Word affirms no such doctrine of men. Person(s) is nowhere in scripture in reference to the Father and the Holy Spirit; and only refers to the Word during the Incarnation. It's inference.

If you deny the Trinity you cannot have a proper view of the atonement or penal substitution. (God sending the son into the world to redeem sinners.)

I well understand atonement. Trinity obscures MANY things. Perhaps I'll disclose them at some point.

Also, when trying to defend your belief in a doctrine one DOES NOT state one verse and imply it's truth. A person must take all information possible and reason from what is known. I do admit those aren't all of the verses pertaining to this doctrine, however I did make much effort in putting evidence for proof.

Yes, a doctrine must encompass all of Holy Writ. I haven't presented one yet; I've just been affirming and refuting related to Trinity; which is just as far from "proven" now as it was before your effort. You have not established that God is three "persons" beyond inference of default creedal orthodoxy and eisegesis. It's futile to refuse to admit that "persons" is inference. God is not three "persons", and He knew what to speak of Himself and how to speak of Himself in His Word. God didn't express Himself as "persons" in His Word. Why do Trinitarians put their word (person-s) in God's mouth?

The Trinitarian doctrine has been an Orthodox Christian belief for many centuries and its conclusion has come from biblical text. The evidence is overwhelming. I hope and pray my post will both edify, enlighten, and encourage believers.

God speed,

Berean

Time to correct the error. Be a good Berean and do so.

I pray God's best for you, Brother.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

THIS IS ALL THAT MATTERS - PEOPLE need to stop studying the bible and begin seeking heaven and HIS righteousness and ask for the Living Water to burst forth from within. PEOPLE treat the New TEstament as the Tree of knowledge instead of the Tree of eternal LIFE seeking to be ONE WITH GOD NOW AND JESUS TOO!

God bless you all and DO this ... DO it to the tee sisters and brothers.

YouTube - Jesus Christ Testimony, Finding Jesus Christ, Jesus loves you. <----- PLEASE watch my testimony, much love people.

[FONT=&quot]•John 17:21 - Jesus said: "That all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be IN us."
John 8:31 - "IF you ABIDE in my word, you are TRULY my disciples."
• John 14:21: "He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."
• Luke 14:26 - "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters--yes, even his own life--he cannot be my disciple."
• John 7:37 - For Jesus stood and cried, saying on the day of the Feast, "If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his BELLY shall flow rivers of Living Water!"[/FONT]

Hi, HWY-

I agree with you, and have done so. The Word must be taught, though. It's not an either/or.

Pray_Fast_Read_Study_Praise_Worship. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. ..................