Is the Great Commission irrelevant for the church now?
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When you read the 4 gospels, are you aware that the 12 had no understanding that Jesus had to die and shed his blood? As for the resurrection, none of them was expecting that, even when it was reported to them that Jesus’s body was missing from the tomb.
So how can they be preaching that gospel of the shed blood during the 4 gospels?
So how can they be preaching that gospel of the shed blood during the 4 gospels?
NIV1984 Ephesians 1:13
And you also were included in Christ when you heard THE WORD OF TRUTH, THE GOSPEL OF YOUR SALVATION. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, THE PROMISED HOLY SPIRIT
The apostles were Jews under the law. The Gospel that they were preaching before and after they received the Holy Spirit is about God's plan of salvation. They were preaching what Jesus was teaching them. The shed blood of Jesus symbolizes the coming of the Holy Spirit. John the baptist spoke of the Holy Spirit in Matthew 3:11-12 which the apostles wrote in their books. They were preaching about the coming of the Messiah and everything that was written about Him in the scroll. They were preaching about FAITH and obedience to God unto salvation. One Gospel and it is the WORD of TRUTH.
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NIV1984 Hebrews 10:1-7
Christ’s Sacrifice Once for All The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: “Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me; with burnt offerings and sin offerings you were not pleased. Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll— I have come to do your will, O God.’”
NIV1984 John 14:26
But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
NIV1984 John 16:13-14
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you.
And you also were included in Christ when you heard THE WORD OF TRUTH, THE GOSPEL OF YOUR SALVATION. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, THE PROMISED HOLY SPIRIT
The apostles were Jews under the law. The Gospel that they were preaching before and after they received the Holy Spirit is about God's plan of salvation. They were preaching what Jesus was teaching them. The shed blood of Jesus symbolizes the coming of the Holy Spirit. John the baptist spoke of the Holy Spirit in Matthew 3:11-12 which the apostles wrote in their books. They were preaching about the coming of the Messiah and everything that was written about Him in the scroll. They were preaching about FAITH and obedience to God unto salvation. One Gospel and it is the WORD of TRUTH.
,
NIV1984 Hebrews 10:1-7
Christ’s Sacrifice Once for All The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: “Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me; with burnt offerings and sin offerings you were not pleased. Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll— I have come to do your will, O God.’”
NIV1984 John 14:26
But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
NIV1984 John 16:13-14
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you.
Anyway, if you read the 4 Gospels, you will get a pretty clear idea what they were NOT preaching
This list does not prove that the Twelve were disobedient to the gospel that was presented to them. Contrarily, they were some of the first believers in the gospel of the kingdom. They were among the faithful remnant of Israel who trusted that Jesus was the Son of God and promised Messiah.
However, these verses show that the gospel they knew and trusted was not the preaching of the cross that Paul taught. Whereas they knew Jesus Christ as Messiah to Israel, Paul would later teach Jesus Christ on the cross as payment for sins to Gentiles.
The preaching of the cross was offered for salvation first through the Apostle Paul as the Lord revealed the meaning of the death, burial, and resurrection. The Twelve apostles were ignorant of this message.
"...to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery..." Ephesians 3:9
- Ignorant of Jesus’ Death, burial, and resurrection
- 1. Matthew 16:21-22 – Jesus first began to tell them of his death and yet Peter tried to prevent it.
- 2. Mark 8:31-32 – Another account of Peter rebuking the Lord for speaking about his death.
- 3. Mark 9:31-32 – After hearing about the death and resurrection of Jesus the disciples “understood not and were afraid to ask him”
- 4. Luke 9:44-45 – “But they understood not this saying, and it was hid from them, that they perceived it not: and they feared to ask him of that saying.”
- 5. Luke 18:31-34 – “And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.”
- 6. John 2:21-22 – They did not understand the resurrection until after it happened.
- Disbelief in the Resurrection
- 7. Mark 16:5-14 – The ladies were afraid when they found the tomb empty. The disciples did not believe after two witnesses testified of the resurrection.
- 8. Luke 24:1-4 – The ladies were perplexed about what had happened to Jesus.
- 9. Luke 24:8-12 – The stories of Jesus’ “disappearance” were idle tales. Peter wondered what happened.
- 10. John 20:2 – Mary Magdalene thought someone had stolen Jesus after he had resurrected.
- 11. John 20:7-9 – The disciples after seeing the empty tomb believed Mary that someone had stolen Jesus. They did not know about the resurrection yet.
- Did not understand the cross for salvation
- 12. John 20:21-23 – Even after the resurrection, the disciples did not understand what it accomplished. Here they are given the authority to remit sins.
- 13. Acts 3:14-15 – The crucifixion was presented as a murder indictment to Israel at Pentecost. The resurrection as a warning that he would return to seek vengeance.
- 14. Acts 5:28 – Instead of the blood being payment for sins it was presented as the evidence of guilty murderers.
- 15. Acts 7:52 – Stephen accuses the rulers of betrayal and murder of the Just One.
- 16. Acts 10:39 – According to Paul’s gospel Christ died willingly in the place of sinners. According to Peter he died because he was slain by certain Jews. Could it be that Peter does not yet understand the mystery of the cross?
This list does not prove that the Twelve were disobedient to the gospel that was presented to them. Contrarily, they were some of the first believers in the gospel of the kingdom. They were among the faithful remnant of Israel who trusted that Jesus was the Son of God and promised Messiah.
However, these verses show that the gospel they knew and trusted was not the preaching of the cross that Paul taught. Whereas they knew Jesus Christ as Messiah to Israel, Paul would later teach Jesus Christ on the cross as payment for sins to Gentiles.
The preaching of the cross was offered for salvation first through the Apostle Paul as the Lord revealed the meaning of the death, burial, and resurrection. The Twelve apostles were ignorant of this message.
"...to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery..." Ephesians 3:9
NIV1984 John 14:6
Jesus answered, “I am the way and THE TRUTH and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
NIV1984 Revelation 19:13
He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.
NIV1984 John 14:21-26
Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.” Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?” Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me. “All this I have spoken while still with you. But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
Whatever Jesus taught the apostles are the words of truth which the apostles preached, the gospel of Christ. They lived with Him and therefore testified about what they saw and heard. They are witnesses of Him just like Paul who testified about what he saw and heard from a vision on his way to Damascus. The Gospel is the WORD of TRUTH from God, the gospel of our salvation. So whatever we received and accepted that came from God is the gospel of God whether it was preached by the twelve apostles or Paul, it is one and the same gospel of our salvation that we received through a living faith that worketh in LOVE which according to John is to WALK IN OBEDIENCE TO HIS COMMANDS.
God bless.
Jesus answered, “I am the way and THE TRUTH and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
NIV1984 Revelation 19:13
He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.
NIV1984 John 14:21-26
Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.” Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?” Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me. “All this I have spoken while still with you. But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
Whatever Jesus taught the apostles are the words of truth which the apostles preached, the gospel of Christ. They lived with Him and therefore testified about what they saw and heard. They are witnesses of Him just like Paul who testified about what he saw and heard from a vision on his way to Damascus. The Gospel is the WORD of TRUTH from God, the gospel of our salvation. So whatever we received and accepted that came from God is the gospel of God whether it was preached by the twelve apostles or Paul, it is one and the same gospel of our salvation that we received through a living faith that worketh in LOVE which according to John is to WALK IN OBEDIENCE TO HIS COMMANDS.
God bless.
Hmm, from this reply, I guess you are still insisting that the 12 preached the same "death burial resurrection of Christ" gospel as Paul did?
You came to this conclusion, despite all the Scripture I have quoted from the 4 gospels, indicating that they did not understand it?
Okay, no one can make you see something you don't want to see. Cheers
You came to this conclusion, despite all the Scripture I have quoted from the 4 gospels, indicating that they did not understand it?
Okay, no one can make you see something you don't want to see. Cheers
The good news of the entire nt is Jesus saves.
No matter what,the 4 gospels and the rest of the nt have the same message.
All the appostles had the revelation of the gospel.
With the disciples,they seemed to understand more than you credit them with,but when he died,they lost heart.
They were Jews and fully knew the outer meaning of the passover,but not the hidden one of Jesus being the passover lamb, with his shed blood caught in a basin as was the custom and instruction for the lamb.
It was Jesus himself that preached the death ,burial,and resurrection,as well as the shed blood
No matter what,the 4 gospels and the rest of the nt have the same message.
All the appostles had the revelation of the gospel.
With the disciples,they seemed to understand more than you credit them with,but when he died,they lost heart.
They were Jews and fully knew the outer meaning of the passover,but not the hidden one of Jesus being the passover lamb, with his shed blood caught in a basin as was the custom and instruction for the lamb.
It was Jesus himself that preached the death ,burial,and resurrection,as well as the shed blood
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goujing is trying to make the point that there are 2 gospels. Not 1.
The gospel of the kingdom,and the gospel of Paul.
I say there is 1. ....Jesus saves. No other way into heaven or salvation from hell.
That is the Gospel message,and Jesus preached it. So did the apostles.
One gospel
The gospel of the kingdom,and the gospel of Paul.
I say there is 1. ....Jesus saves. No other way into heaven or salvation from hell.
That is the Gospel message,and Jesus preached it. So did the apostles.
One gospel
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The op?
That the disciples did not preach the blood?
You are framing that in the idea that there are 2 gospels.
I already know where you are going.
You are probably right that they didn't have that revelation,but they went out with the good news that the messiah has come.
But nonetheless,Jesus preached the blood. ....in the 4 Gospels
That the disciples did not preach the blood?
You are framing that in the idea that there are 2 gospels.
I already know where you are going.
You are probably right that they didn't have that revelation,but they went out with the good news that the messiah has come.
But nonetheless,Jesus preached the blood. ....in the 4 Gospels
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H
It sure is. This is just a recent hyper-dispensational invention that all of a sudden the great commission isnt for the church. Even if Jesus said He will be with His disciples till the end of the world.
Paul said we should take heed to the words of the Lord Jesus. Paul preached the same message as the others, dont let anyone flim flam you into believing anything else.
Paul said we should take heed to the words of the Lord Jesus. Paul preached the same message as the others, dont let anyone flim flam you into believing anything else.
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The word "Gospel" just means Good news.
When you preach the Gospel of the Kingdom, it was indeed very good news to the Jews. Their promised King is here.
This Gospel that was being preached in Matt-John was definitely NOT the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. That is the Gospel of Grace for us now (1 Cor 15:1-4).
Its strange that you continue to insist they are the same "good news", when the list of verses from the 4 Gospels clearly indicated otherwise. But then again, no one can make you see something you don't want to see.
When you preach the Gospel of the Kingdom, it was indeed very good news to the Jews. Their promised King is here.
This Gospel that was being preached in Matt-John was definitely NOT the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. That is the Gospel of Grace for us now (1 Cor 15:1-4).
Its strange that you continue to insist they are the same "good news", when the list of verses from the 4 Gospels clearly indicated otherwise. But then again, no one can make you see something you don't want to see.
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I suspect you're referring to 1 Thessalonians 4:15 "by the word of the Lord" (and speaking of our Rapture... Did not Jesus say, in John 16:12-15, "I have YET MANY THINGS to say unto you, BUT ye cannot bear them NOW. HOWBEIT WHEN..." [and note Jn7:39 along with this])
Yeah, well what Paul was saying, as I see it (to which passage you refer, from what I can tell) is that nothing he said was in any way against/contrary/in-conflict-with OT scriptures which told of the Suffering Servant aspects of Christ's ministry as much as they did the Reigning King aspects (and which Suffering Servant aspect, Peter, in Acts 3, is saying they missed/overlooked and in doing so, thus [themselves] fulfilled... but Acts 3 also speaks of "whom the heaven must receive UNTIL the times of the restitution OF ALL THINGS WHICH GOD HATH SPOKEN BY the mouth of all His holy prophets from the age [singular]"... (not the "[NT] apostles and prophets" who were given other further words to say/write/record in Scripture, but which do not contradict/conflict nor oppose the things said by the OT prophets)
So that, for example, where Paul had said (in 1Cor15:51-54) "THIS corruptible" and "THIS mortal," he speaking IN PARTICULAR of "the Church which is His body" [SOLELY , here] and is not saying that the MOMENT *THIS* speaks to, is "at the end of the MK / at the GWTj time slot" (when "the last enemy" is destroyed). No. (He is speaking especially here of "this mystery"--Not that which Martha and all OT saints WELL-KNEW! (John 11:24; also Dan12:13 / Job19:25-27 / etc), but something that was, as yet, UNDISCLOSED/unrevealed... but was "NOW revealed unto His holy apostles and prophets" Eph3:5 [meaning, the NT "apostles and prophets" (phrased like this) and following His death/resurrection--see also Eph1:20-23 WHEN (re: 'the Church which is His body')])
Yeah, well what Paul was saying, as I see it (to which passage you refer, from what I can tell) is that nothing he said was in any way against/contrary/in-conflict-with OT scriptures which told of the Suffering Servant aspects of Christ's ministry as much as they did the Reigning King aspects (and which Suffering Servant aspect, Peter, in Acts 3, is saying they missed/overlooked and in doing so, thus [themselves] fulfilled... but Acts 3 also speaks of "whom the heaven must receive UNTIL the times of the restitution OF ALL THINGS WHICH GOD HATH SPOKEN BY the mouth of all His holy prophets from the age [singular]"... (not the "[NT] apostles and prophets" who were given other further words to say/write/record in Scripture, but which do not contradict/conflict nor oppose the things said by the OT prophets)
So that, for example, where Paul had said (in 1Cor15:51-54) "THIS corruptible" and "THIS mortal," he speaking IN PARTICULAR of "the Church which is His body" [SOLELY , here] and is not saying that the MOMENT *THIS* speaks to, is "at the end of the MK / at the GWTj time slot" (when "the last enemy" is destroyed). No. (He is speaking especially here of "this mystery"--Not that which Martha and all OT saints WELL-KNEW! (John 11:24; also Dan12:13 / Job19:25-27 / etc), but something that was, as yet, UNDISCLOSED/unrevealed... but was "NOW revealed unto His holy apostles and prophets" Eph3:5 [meaning, the NT "apostles and prophets" (phrased like this) and following His death/resurrection--see also Eph1:20-23 WHEN (re: 'the Church which is His body')])
^ I see this in kind of the same way as the "but of that day and hour KNOWETH [perfect tense]" no man [not even Jesus, at the time He spoke this]"... but this does NOT say, "no man CAN [or WILL] EVER know," nor "it is FORBIDDEN to know"... (the CONTEXT speaking of His Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom)… I believe Jesus has "known" ever since His resurrection/ascension/exaltation, and THEN LATER supplied FURTHER INFORMATION (on THIS SUBJECT) in His LATER "[The] Revelation" (95ad--"[The] Revelation of Jesus Christ, WHICH GOD GAVE UNTO HIM [unto Jesus, exalted] TO SHEW UNTO His servants..." and which "things" conclude with "His Second Coming to the earth," per Rev19, and which chpts provide quite a number of "time-related" phrases / time-stamps throughout). I do not believe it is biblically correct to say "STILL NO ONE knows" (Jesus does!) or "NO ONE CAN/WILL EVER know" (this is to disregard the "perfect tense" and the SEQUENCE issues provided for us in several places, informing us of "what" came "when"... as far as "when" He "SAID" things)
If the "Great Commission" irrelevant for the church, then one is saying that the gospel has been preached to everyone one and the end is here. Jesus said once the Gospel is preached to every creature Than the end would come. I think that is very much presumptuous for one to say. We are to continue till HE comes or we die.
That is another problem with insisting that the GC is for the church today. They link that to this verse Matt 24:14
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Some churches use this verse to teach their people that, if they do not attempt to fulfill the GC, then Jesus will not come back. That again shows the importance of distinguishing between the Gospel of the Kingdom and the Gospel of Grace.
For us, the rapture has no pre-requisite, Jesus can come back anytime to call his church. Once the church is raptured, then the 144,000 Jewish evangelists will once again preach the gospel of the kingdom, and Jesus's 2nd coming to Earth will be for the Jews. That is what Matt 24:14 is referring to.
For us now in the church, our message that we bring to the world, is not the GC, but rather the Ministry of Reconciliation explained by Paul in 2 Corinthians 5:11-21. This message will avoid all the issues I have introduced in my opening post.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Some churches use this verse to teach their people that, if they do not attempt to fulfill the GC, then Jesus will not come back. That again shows the importance of distinguishing between the Gospel of the Kingdom and the Gospel of Grace.
For us, the rapture has no pre-requisite, Jesus can come back anytime to call his church. Once the church is raptured, then the 144,000 Jewish evangelists will once again preach the gospel of the kingdom, and Jesus's 2nd coming to Earth will be for the Jews. That is what Matt 24:14 is referring to.
For us now in the church, our message that we bring to the world, is not the GC, but rather the Ministry of Reconciliation explained by Paul in 2 Corinthians 5:11-21. This message will avoid all the issues I have introduced in my opening post.