Texas televangelist Kenneth Copeland came under fire this...

[CS1]

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/none-dare-call-it-heresy/

I m an RC fan, however, not everything in the article is true. 1. Jimmy Swaggart was not censured he was removed from the pulpit for two years by the aog for his sexual. sin. Jimmy Swaggart refused and left the aog and went rogue. Also, Jimmy Swaggert taught the Trinity the only time he spoke differently is when he was pointing out the Wrong of oneness. the rest of the article I have no issue with. FYI RC too was on TBN.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

Please just stop with your nonsense ... poor people do not have to live in a cardboard box.
How about some honesty on how society is owned and operated by the rich for the rich and the rest of us have nothing more than
wages at best. People are poor due to inadequate work (underemployment), lousy hourly rates, cost of living, limited opportunities.
Your attitude and what you write is unscriptural and against the teachings of God.

Whoever has a bountiful eye will be blessed, for he shares his bread with the poor.
Proverbs 22:9
There is that makes himself rich, yet has nothing: there is one that makes himself poor, yet hath great riches.
Proverbs 13:7
Jesus said unto him, If thou will be perfect, go and sell that thou have, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven:
and come and follow me.
Matthew 19:21
Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
James 1:27
Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality.
Romans 12:13
But if anyone has the world's goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God's love abide in him?
1John 3:17

Ah, proverbs of the wisest mortal man ever! My turn to deal a blow to modern calls for satanic socialist programs that promote guaranteed income and benefits for all who set foot on American soil...except the elderly who paid in all their lives and have to keep paying deductibles and copays to survive....

Proverbs 10:3-5 (KJV)
3 The LORD will not suffer the soul of the righteous to famish: but he casteth away the substance of the wicked.
4 He becometh poor that dealeth with a slack hand: but the hand of the diligent maketh rich.
5 He that gathereth in summer is a wise son: but he that sleepeth in harvest is a son that causeth shame.

"Poor" there means one in poverty. A" slack hand" is understood properly in various modes. The chief mode is laziness. Another is cheating an employer for hours paid but not worked. A modern take is "I could draw welfare benefits equaling my takehome pay, so I will scale back my efforts for this employer and save my strength for better things to do." The employer is looking for hard workers who will become too valuable to lose, so will promote the best workers in due time. Some of the best employees who rise to the upper levels of a corporation got their start volunteering to work a while without pay, and always consistent in showing up to work on time. Never asking for a paycheck draws great attention and favor. The result is success in being hired and promoted in record time. I've hired felons who came that way, several the best employees ever. It's nearly impossible to not reward someone who pushes for excellence.

Proverbs 6:6-11 (KJV)
6 Go to the ant, thou sluggard; consider her ways, and be wise:
7 Which having no guide, overseer, or ruler,
8 Provideth her meat in the summer, and gathereth her food in the harvest.
9 How long wilt thou sleep, O sluggard? when wilt thou arise out of thy sleep?
10 Yet a little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding of the hands to sleep:
11 So shall thy poverty come as one that travelleth, and thy want as an armed man.

Ever read or watched "The ant and the Grasshopper"? People who live entire lives in deep poverty need to learn from it. I had a woman apply for work to watch security monitors nightly. I asked her what her goals are. "I just want a paycheck every week, and insurance, and 4 weeks of paid vacation every year, and maternity leave since I'm bearing now." I didn't call her to work.

Poor people with a poor work attitude can't help each other, but tend to abuse each other, stealing from each other. I help the poor who want to work their way out of the pit they dug themselves into. The slackers get some alms through agencies and Church programs. Giving most some money just helps them get drunk or high again, few if any serious about correcting their ways. I don't deal with the hundreds to thousands knocking on my door, but have a sign indicating where they might get help. Since most have exhausted the usual giveaways and programs, they go back to their cardboard city and wait for soccer moms to bring the cans and can openers. A dear old man, not a Christian, was beaten and robbed while unloading food from his pickup. Gangs rob the helpless, even those put up in apartments. Those are traded for drugs and alcohol, leaving the weak and their homeless children malnourished. There is no help besides spoon feeding the babies if they let you.

The only way out is to enter the workforce, show progress, then get serious help that doesn't translate to enabling addictions.

It takes people having earned enough spare money to be of significant help to the perishing. Choosing poverty as somehow being a blessing will not help anyone else.

Here's a model that still applies for general giving to the poor. Of course modern skeptics will reject the word of God....

1 Timothy 5:3-16 (KJV)
3 Honour widows that are widows indeed.
4 But if any widow have children or nephews, let them learn first to shew piety at home, and to requite their parents: for that is good and acceptable before God.
5 Now she that is a widow indeed, and desolate, trusteth in God, and continueth in supplications and prayers night and day.
6 But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.
7 And these things give in charge, that they may be blameless.
8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.
9 Let not a widow be taken into the number under threescore years old, having been the wife of one man,
10 Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints' feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work.
11 But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry;
12 Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.
13 And withal they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house; and not only idle, but tattlers also and busybodies, speaking things which they ought not.
14 I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully.
15 For some are already turned aside after Satan.
16 If any man or woman that believeth have widows, let them relieve them, and let not the church be charged; that it may relieve them that are widows indeed.

How much more WORD OF GOD does it take to deal with the TROLLS here?

 

[Waggles]

How much more WORD OF GOD does it take to deal with the TROLLS here?

The OP is about Kenneth Copeland becoming a multi-billionaire out of marketing religion. Most responses have been to support the notion that Christianity is not about making fabulous wealth but rather God will provide for our needs.
The point of the gospel is not about obtaining a fleet of private jets but about good works that stores up treasures in Heaven.
The money-making machines of Copeland, Hinn, Osteen and others is an abomination and a perversion of the gospel.
They are about fleecing the flock.

Further wealth is a blessing when it is understood as a surplus to needs and a wealthy Christian is obligated by the word of God to
share and to distribute within the congregation to those who have need; either directly or through a poor box.
The gospel is about salvation of our souls not our savings in our bank accounts.

Your diatribe on the the poor may be a valid criticism of worldly people living in a welfare state but you miss the point of
Christian compassion and love within the church.
Lots of good Christians are "poor" not because they are lazy, but it may well be due to underemployment, a bout of unemployment,
exporting our jobs to China, high rents, personal tragedies, prolonged illness or disability, low paid jobs on minimum wages.
Cost of living is a big big problem here Downunder as electricity and gas prices rocket upward due to the nutty Greens.
Incomes have been falling behind inflation and house prices and rents are through the roof!

Getting back to the OP - Kenneth Copeland and his ilk it would be wise to read the words of Jesus himself about rich men and also the parable of Lazarus the beggar and the rich man.

But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime received thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Luke 16:25

 

[Waggles]

Here's a model that still applies for general giving to the poor. Of course modern skeptics will reject the word of God....

19 Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal,
20 but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal.
21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
Matthew 6: (ESV)
24 Jesus, seeing that he had become sad, said, “How difficult it is for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God!
25 For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God."
Luke 18: (ESV)

 

[Word_Swordsman]

The OP is about Kenneth Copeland becoming a multi-billionaire out of marketing religion. Most responses have been to support the notion that Christianity is not about making fabulous wealth but rather God will provide for our needs.
The point of the gospel is not about obtaining a fleet of private jets but about good works that stores up treasures in Heaven.
The money-making machines of Copeland, Hinn, Osteen and others is an abomination and a perversion of the gospel.
They are about fleecing the flock.

Further wealth is a blessing when it is understood as a surplus to needs and a wealthy Christian is obligated by the word of God to
share and to distribute within the congregation to those who have need; either directly or through a poor box.
The gospel is about salvation of our souls not our savings in our bank accounts.

Your diatribe on the the poor may be a valid criticism of worldly people living in a welfare state but you miss the point of
Christian compassion and love within the church.
Lots of good Christians are "poor" not because they are lazy, but it may well be due to underemployment, a bout of unemployment,
exporting our jobs to China, high rents, personal tragedies, prolonged illness or disability, low paid jobs on minimum wages.
Cost of living is a big big problem here Downunder as electricity and gas prices rocket upward due to the nutty Greens.
Incomes have been falling behind inflation and house prices and rents are through the roof!

Getting back to the OP - Kenneth Copeland and his ilk it would be wise to read the words of Jesus himself about rich men and also the parable of Lazarus the beggar and the rich man.

But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime received thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Luke 16:25

So you deliberately ignore the wisdom of King Solomon! Go ahead, make your bed in your ignorance. God will allow that. You might rightly condemn some selfish rich people, but ignore the benevolent wealthy. May no wealthy righteous wealthy man see your need. Your words excuse you from future rescues.

I ignore all your excuses. All your "underemployed" need to do is work sunup to sundown. They need to stop spending more than they earn. There is a true rare vacation for anyone, and a rarer secure retirement. I work and manage business enterprises 16 hours a day at age 74, hoping to sleep a solid 7 hours daily. Often that's interrupted by someone not showing up, so I am the filler-in. There will be no "retirement" for me, unable and unwilling to end well earned careers of our employed.

Avoid ignoring the word of God. You are missing out on His wisdom, taking the side of FAILURE. When that becomes your middle name, you sink into failure. That is your present sermon! Anathema.

Work! Sure, you might enrich some wealthy entrepreneur, but they do more to employ people than poor beggars do.

What are YOU doing to help the poor people you know about?

 

[Waggles]

What are YOU doing to help the poor people you know about?

Such vitriol. No fruit of the Spirit here.
Perhaps rather than exhausting your life working so hard for worldly gain you should become an employee of Jesus.
He is still looking for good and faithful servants.

As to myself even though I am on a very low fixed-income I am still very generous in giving and sharing (often when I can least
afford to) because helping out others both within and without my church is part of the good works God has for me to do.

6 But godliness with contentment is great gain,
7 for we brought nothing into the world, and we cannot take anything out of the world.
8 But if we have food and clothing, with these we will be content.
9 But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation, into a snare, into many senseless and harmful desires that plunge people
into ruin and destruction.
10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith
and pierced themselves with many pangs.
1Timothy 6:

 

[Word_Swordsman]

The OP is about Kenneth Copeland becoming a multi-billionaire out of marketing religion. Most responses have been to support the notion that Christianity is not about making fabulous wealth but rather God will provide for our needs.
The point of the gospel is not about obtaining a fleet of private jets but about good works that stores up treasures in Heaven.
The money-making machines of Copeland, Hinn, Osteen and others is an abomination and a perversion of the gospel.
They are about fleecing the flock.

Further wealth is a blessing when it is understood as a surplus to needs and a wealthy Christian is obligated by the word of God to
share and to distribute within the congregation to those who have need; either directly or through a poor box.
The gospel is about salvation of our souls not our savings in our bank accounts.

Your diatribe on the the poor may be a valid criticism of worldly people living in a welfare state but you miss the point of
Christian compassion and love within the church.
Lots of good Christians are "poor" not because they are lazy, but it may well be due to underemployment, a bout of unemployment,
exporting our jobs to China, high rents, personal tragedies, prolonged illness or disability, low paid jobs on minimum wages.
Cost of living is a big big problem here Downunder as electricity and gas prices rocket upward due to the nutty Greens.
Incomes have been falling behind inflation and house prices and rents are through the roof!

Getting back to the OP - Kenneth Copeland and his ilk it would be wise to read the words of Jesus himself about rich men and also the parable of Lazarus the beggar and the rich man.

But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime received thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Luke 16:25

What of the NEED of support for reaching the world with the gospel of Christ? Are you not part of that challenge? Do you not care that it costs a lot of money and manpower to spread the gospel to billions of people? Do you know how much KCM has done with contributions to do that? Do you care at all? How does your contribution stack up besides faulty words on the internet?

I say you are among the children of the Devil opposed to the last days effort to complete God's harvest of souls. Your words verify that hatred. A few Christian ministries are doing it, but you oppose! Those that work hard at the ministry profit per the promise of God. He profits ministries for the purpose of spreading the gospel of Christ. I doubt you have done squat towards that goal.

You must hate Abraham with seething hatred since he became very wealthy as a dear friend of God. God fix you.

 

[Waggles]

He that trusteth in his riches shall fall: but the righteous shall flourish as a branch.
Proverbs 11:28
He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
Matthew 13:22

 

[Waggles]

Do you not care that it costs a lot of money and manpower to spread the gospel to billions of people? Do you know how much KCM has done with contributions to do that? Do you care at all? How does your contribution stack up besides faulty words on the internet?

We support a very successful worldwide Revival on all continents bar Antarctica without the need for private jets or selling a false
prosperity gospel.
It only takes one or two people with signs following to begin the work. Testimonies to the miraculous, especially healing, begins
the work. God gives the increase.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

Such vitriol. No fruit of the Spirit here.
Perhaps rather than exhausting your life working so hard for worldly gain you should become an employee of Jesus.
He is still looking for good and faithful servants.

As to myself even though I am on a very low fixed-income I am still very generous in giving and sharing (often when I can least
afford to) because helping out others both within and without my church is part of the good works God has for me to do.

6 But godliness with contentment is great gain,
7 for we brought nothing into the world, and we cannot take anything out of the world.
8 But if we have food and clothing, with these we will be content.
9 But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation, into a snare, into many senseless and harmful desires that plunge people
into ruin and destruction.
10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith
and pierced themselves with many pangs.
1Timothy 6:

Stand before God with that testimony! If your income is "fixed", then you have a very small potential of helping anyone, even one person, for any gain. You barely support yourself? You must not be working at any job to produce any additional income? Why condemn the rich who have a choice to give away wealth, or pay more taxes to the governments? You have no idea of what the wealthy face. The wealthy in America pay practically all the taxes that support all the agency programs. The poor receive the benefits.

If your income is fixed too low to make a significant difference, then you are part of the poverty problem. If you are physically or mentally impaired too much to make a difference, then receive what you can. If able, contribute more than given by government! Earn! Otherwise, you are a leach on the economy.

2 Thessalonians 3:6-15 (KJV)
6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;
8 Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you:
9 Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.
10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
11 For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies.
12 Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.
13 But ye, brethren, be not weary in well doing.
14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.
15 Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

We support a very successful worldwide Revival on all continents bar Antarctica without the need for private jets or selling a false
prosperity gospel.
It only takes one or two people with signs following to begin the work. Testimonies to the miraculous, especially healing, begins
the work. God gives the increase.

Suppose what you support is a false gospel! Many ministries have proven false. Those in bankruptcy surely are not among the blessed. Satan can imitate signs following. You subscribe many ministries experiencing wealth to be evil, though they spread the gospel of Christ worldwide. Along the way God adds blessings as promised. So why complain?

Mark 9:38-50 (KJV)
38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
40 For he that is not against us is on our part.
41 For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.
42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.
50 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

Because yours are not theirs, theirs are false? If 'Theres" are not "yours", then "Theirs" are false? I know what Jesus would answer you.

 

[Waggles]

Wow what can one say against such a self-righteous know it all.

 

[oldethennew]

WS,
shame on you...

 

[melita916]

I praise God He gives us the day our daily bread.

Financially, according to the world’s standards, my family isn’t rich. But thank God we have what we need. Food on the table. Bills are paid. We have jobs. We are able to give to our local fellowship. We even sponsor a child in a different country.

Just because we don’t have millions doesn’t mean we are not able to impact the world around us with the Gospel. Our work place, our neighborhood, our city IS our mission field.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

Unfortunately what you are saying misses the fundamental truth, wealth is a human perception, and
through it you can get other people to do things for you.

Wealth historically meant possessing other peoples effort, and the rich often through power and
exploitation abused those they met to obtain and maintain their position. And through death, their
wealth got passed on when they died to others, while their life was often brutal and short.

The roman emperor could often be cruel and insane, but equally they often only lasted a few years.

In modern times with technology, machines, factories, mass distribution of food, housing, amenities
we are all wealthy and unlikely to be destitute. Now this is real blessing for us all.

What you see as success today is often sales and hype, riding a passing wave of the moment, often
funded by debt, which a few years later collapses into nothing. So connecting this kind of success
with the Lord is not wise, or even true. One could even argue the whole wealth bubble is the effect
of borrowing and debt, which multiplies wealth through lenders, to create artificial success, which
at each recession comes back to haunt us all.

I will remind you the concept of wealth began with God.
Deuteronomy 8:15-20 (KJV)
15 Who led thee through that great and terrible wilderness, wherein were fiery serpents, and scorpions, and drought, where there was no water; who brought thee forth water out of the rock of flint;
16 Who fed thee in the wilderness with manna, which thy fathers knew not, that he might humble thee, and that he might prove thee, to do thee good at thy latter end;
17 And thou say in thine heart, My power and the might of mine hand hath gotten me this wealth.

18 But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as it is this day.

19 And it shall be, if thou do at all forget the LORD thy God, and walk after other gods, and serve them, and worship them, I testify against you this day that ye shall surely perish.
20 As the nations which the LORD destroyeth before your face, so shall ye perish; because ye would not be obedient unto the voice of the LORD your God.

Because some misuse wealth, having wealth of itself is not wickedness. There is a high purpose for wealth, to promote the gospel of Christ, which many wealthy do. I've also watched many wealthy lose it all over their foolishness, some committing suicide.

That power doesn't come to the lazy, the drunkards, the unrepentant sinner. Whatever they get is soon parted from them. That's why the word of God emphasizes helping worthy poor, like godly widows in 1 Timothy 5. That kind of giving pleases God.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

WS,
shame on you...

Why say that? I challenge you to explain and be not entangled with poor exegesis.

Are you a socialist, sir? I'd like to know before discussion.

 

[JaumeJ]

Most often when the Word makes reference to individuals or countries being wealthy it is in the context of prospering at what they endeavour. I realize this sounds the same, and in many ways it is, but it also encompasses our Fathe blessing the sorks of our hands, not simply cowboy gain.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

Most often when the Word makes reference to individuals or countries being wealthy it is in the context of prospering at what they endeavour. I realize this sounds the same, and in many ways it is, but it also encompasses our Fathe blessing the sorks of our hands, not simply cowboy gain.

I wonder how many people condemning wealth gain of preachers would complain about their favorite sports star's salary?
How many know most televangelists and TV preachers don't take a salary? Few. They produce books, music, song sheets for sale. If no salary, then how would they afford to produce such things by their hands and distribute them? Why would people buy their products? Well they must benefit from them, and so do do their staff members.

There shouldn't be confusion among Christians over the matter. God obviously blesses them with wealth, and knows how much of it they share. Judging Copeland over what is perceived as ill-gotten wealth is a sure way of losing blessings from God who won't bless people who condemn without just cause as appointed judges or jurists who get to view all the facts. Complainers in the wilderness in Exodus were denied entrance into the promised lands, only their children under 20 that privilege, plus Joshua and Caleb. God hates complaining, especially when that's based on avarice, resentment of another's possessions, which translates to covetousness.

The people who support those ministries love what they gain from them. My wife and I have supported Kenneth Copeland and others since they began in about 1969 a few years into our marriage. We learned God's will concerning faith, money, and how we spend the time God gives us, how to be good stewards of what God allows us to manage, and have prospered ever since. Many of our friends who were there have been wealthy ever since, some given great ideas for business, and now spend their days looking for worthy Christian causes to support. Nowadays we are seeing some young Christians who lack the thousands of early teachings, jumping into the prosperity ring, and failing. When you attend their conventions, all warn to do some catching up before giving away your utility payment money. Most announce not to put your tithe in, but make sure you support your local church. Unfortunately many are not connected to a local church, considering a televangelist to be their pastor, and person they will probably never meet. That's not God's will, pinning hopes on an occasional convention.

I say all that because no Christian ought be found condemning another, especially if you are not walking with one you criticise. Much of that comes from misunderstanding and sometimes rebellion. Each of us do things differently, and that just isn't anyone else's business. Admonish in truth and wisdom, yes, when you see error in doctrine. Correct a brother in love, yes. Do it person to person, not smearing them on social media. Well, some apparently prefer being corrected on social media, so what then, leave them in their error? But even then do so with caution given this commandment.
Luke 9:49-50 (KJV)
49 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

 

[dcontroversal]

A couple of thoughts come to mind when reading this thread.....

It is more blessed to give than receive

Labor so we can give to those that need it