100% Election 100% of the time.

[Grandpa]

The Bible interprets Scripture with Scripture. And everything in TULIP is a misrepresentation of what is in Scripture. Hence Five Point Calvinism is "another Gospel".

Let's take the example of so-called "Unconditional election" (U). If this were true, then we would not have these words of Christ recorded in Scripture:

JOHN 3

NO UNCONDITIONIAL ELECTION
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

NO UNCONDITIONIAL ELECTION
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

NO UNCONDITIONIAL ELECTION
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

NO UNCONDITIONIAL ELECTION
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

In order to pervert this true Gospel, Calvinists pervert the meaning of this passage to mean that applies only to the so-called "elect". and that is not permissible when rightly dividing the Word of Truth.

It is you that has misrepresented election. Hence what you are trying to present is another gospel.

All those scriptures that you have presented are true. But they do not show a conditional election as you propose.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

So the Whosoever and the World become those which the Father has drawn, unconditional election.

Romans 9:15-16
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.


It seems very strange to me to propose that there is some inherent good in people that God would foresee and give His Gifts to these people. And then argue later on that it wasn't God being Sovereign but it was Mans Free Will and Choice that made God do it.

I believe so God HAS to save me = no, not scriptural

God has saved me which is the reason I believe = yes, scriptural

 

[Journeyman]

they are related for sure, but they are not saying the same thing ((quoting GNV)):

He that planted the ear, shall He not hear? or He that formed the eye, shall He not see? ​

(Psalm 94:9) ​

​

The Lord hath made both these, even the ear to hear, and the eye to see.
(Proverbs 20:12) ​

the ear and the eye of the LORD are uncreated. there is nothing that escapes His hearing or His sight, but there is much that escapes the hearing and seeing of mankind -- and even among those things man sees, and hears, among men there are many who do not hear, and do not see.
the proverb is telling us that whoever sees, God has made their eye, and made it to see. and whoever hears, God has made their ear, and made it to hear.
the psalm is telling us God is neither blind nor deaf.
i wouldn't say the point of the proverb is the psalm - tho the point of the psalm may in fact be the proverb - because, look at what immediately precedes it:

Yet they say, The Lord shall not see: neither will the God of Jacob regard it.​

Understand, ye unwise among the people: and ye fools, when will ye be wise?​

(Psalm 94:7-8)​

and what immediately follows:

Or He that chastiseth the nations, shall He not correct? He that teacheth man knowledge, shall He not know?​

The Lord knoweth the thoughts of man, that they are vanity.​

(Psalm 94:10-11)​

this follows the same pattern as v.9, and speaks of knowledge, the thoughts of man, in the same way it speaks of seeing and hearing -- and it is clear: the thoughts of man are empty & futile. we are ignorant. so it is likewise that man is blind and deaf: but if man hears, and man sees, it is the Lord who makes the ear that hears, and the eye that sees.

so, i see, the psalm pointing to the proverb - and the proverb presuming the rhetorical fat of the psalm: God sees, God hears, God knows. if i know, if i hear, and i see, it is because God has granted it to me in His mercy: i do not exist of myself, but because He created me & sustains me

now, trying to stay relevant to the thread -- is this a sovereign-election view the scripture presents, or a human-free-agency view? if i am blind, can i cause myself to see? can i cause my deaf ears to hear?

The point of the proverb is that God created people to see and hear. The futility is in thinking God doesn't see or hear the evil man knows he's doing and speaking. You're making God's work futile,

And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord. Lk.1:17

What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? Isa.5:4

The epitome of which is Christ on earth.

 

[cv5]

Some complementary excerpts....

Matt 11:25

At that time Jesus declared, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will. All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

1 Tim 1:13

though formerly I was a blasphemer, persecutor, and insolent opponent. But I received mercy because I had acted ignorantly in unbelief, and the grace of our Lord overflowed for me with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus

1 Thess 1

For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction

2 Thess 2

But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.

 

[posthuman]

Some complementary excerpts....

Matt 11:25

At that time Jesus declared, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will. All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

1 Tim 1:13

though formerly I was a blasphemer, persecutor, and insolent opponent. But I received mercy because I had acted ignorantly in unbelief, and the grace of our Lord overflowed for me with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus

1 Thess 1

For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction

2 Thess 2

But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.

For He chose us in Him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in His sight. In love He predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with His pleasure and will
(Ephesians 1:4-5) ​

this is Him choosing & predestining us before we were even created

so the answer to what i was asking, "when did He know we would believe?" seems to necessarily be 'before He ever even made us'

He created time itself. He is before 'time' ((Colossians 1:17)) and He already 'was' before there was any such thing as 'the past' ((John 1:1)) -- there is no such thing as a time before He knew any thing; He knows all things at all times before there are even things and before there is even such a thing as time.

if this isn't so, then where is this analysis wrong?

 

[UnderGrace]

I mean, I don't see how your opinion negates the very Word.

The Word says, and not just where I posted, that not ALL the dead will hear. The Word says whom Jesus Wills can hear.

This idea of decisional birth BY THOSE BEING BORN can be in a sense the last, ultimate "work" that a person needs to abandon. If I were like Nehemiah 6, I might say that is a false Gospel. (would be a little offensive huh? Well his reverse statement the same!)

Not ALL who hear will believe. Why is that? You may say it is because they reject the Truth in unrighteousness,because they love their sin, and you would be right. But it doesn't explain why WE heard The gospel and believed, as WE loved our sin just as they.

So was it my great faith, that I mustered out of my own will and strength, that got me to believe? Or was it God, who GAVE me that faith to believe? I contend the latter. The former can easily lead to a boast.

Mr. PennEd we have had this discussion before.

It is not our decision that causes us to be saved ....it is our belief.

Those who state make a decision for Christ or turn from sin and let Jesus rule you life are not preaching the correct Gospel.

Our belief does not lead to a boast...I rather think that it is those who think that God imbued, infused faith in them that have the platform from which to boast.

Do you believe your wife loves you? Did you have to muster that up?

 

[posthuman]

Mr. PennEd we have had this discussion before.

It is not our decision that causes us to be saved ....it is our belief.

Those who state make a decision for Christ or turn from sin and let Jesus rule you life are not preaching the correct Gospel.

Our belief does not lead to a boast...I rather think that it is those who think that God imbued, infused faith in them that have the platform from which to boast.

Do you believe your wife loves you? Did you have to muster that up?

i could boast that i was special enough that God chose me instead of some other person just as easily as i could boast that i was special enough chose God where some other person didn't.

neither would be righteous - i have nothing that i didn't receive, even my own existence

as some say, there is 'a ditch on either side of the road'

 

[calibob]

i could boast that i was special enough that God chose me instead of some other person just as easily as i could boast that i was special enough chose God where some other person didn't.

neither would be righteous - i have nothing that i didn't receive, even my own existence

as some say, there is 'a ditch on either side of the road'

My dad used to say, "Keep it between the ditches."

 

[cv5]

Mr. PennEd we have had this discussion before.

It is not our decision that causes us to be saved ....it is our belief.

Those who state make a decision for Christ or turn from sin and let Jesus rule you life are not preaching the correct Gospel.

Our belief does not lead to a boast...I rather think that it is those who think that God imbued, infused faith in them that have the platform from which to boast.

Do you believe your wife loves you? Did you have to muster that up?

"it is our belief"

Too close to boasting for comfort IMO.

 

[UnderGrace]

"it is our belief"

Too close to boasting for comfort IMO.

But what if God wants us to believe?

 

[posthuman]

But what if God wants us to believe?

if God is for us, who could be against us??

 

[posthuman]

My dad used to say, "Keep it between the ditches."

i like to say 'staying on that grey, in-between the yellow and the white'

 

[cv5]

The Bible interprets Scripture with Scripture. And everything in TULIP is a misrepresentation of what is in Scripture. Hence Five Point Calvinism is "another Gospel".

Let's take the example of so-called "Unconditional election" (U). If this were true, then we would not have these words of Christ recorded in Scripture:

JOHN 3

NO UNCONDITIONIAL ELECTION
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

NO UNCONDITIONIAL ELECTION
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

NO UNCONDITIONIAL ELECTION
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

NO UNCONDITIONIAL ELECTION
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

In order to pervert this true Gospel, Calvinists pervert the meaning of this passage to mean that applies only to the so-called "elect". and that is not permissible when rightly dividing the Word of Truth.

Unconditional election eliminates works, boasting, pride and Glorifies God, yes. But more to the point, it is undoubtedly supported by Scripure.

 

[cv5]

This is Jesus proving who He is and His authority....."God" to the local religious leaders.

Audience relevance and context.

Jesus makes a claim to power that is reserved only for God!!!

It is not about the some preferred selection process and gifting.....this is completely contrary to the very nature of God.

There is a selection no doubt about that. This based upon Gods Grace alone. Certainly not predicated on ourselves....we were rebels and condemned already. Frankly we were not around to be involved. God chose Israel before they were around too.

 

[cv5]

But what if God wants us to believe?

Thats more to my liking!

 

[UnderGrace]

There is a selection no doubt about that. This based upon Gods Grace alone. Certainly not predicated on ourselves....we were rebels and condemned already. Frankly we were not around to be involved. God chose Israel before they were around too.

You do realize that when you postulate that God selects who to save, God becomes morally ambiguous?

 

[cv5]

You do realize that when you postulate that God selects who to save, God becomes morally ambiguous?

Not to me. I in trust God's judgement.
God took it upon Himself by Himself to save me. Im just thrilled about the whole thing honestly.

 

[UnderGrace]

Not to me. I in trust God's judgement.
God took it upon Himself by Himself to save me. Im just thrilled about the whole thing honestly.

Okay, Sorry Mr. cv5, while I have learned from many of your posts........... this is why "Calvinism" or "Tulip" is a problem.

You believed and God quickened your spirit.

Belief is the criteria and that is why we can trust His judgement because the criteria is the same for everyone.....and this is why He is NOT the morally ambiguous God of TULIP

 

[cv5]

Okay, Sorry Mr. cv5, while I have learned from many of your posts........... this is why "Calvinism" or "Tulip" is a problem.

You believed and God quickened your spirit.

Belief is the criteria and that is why we can trust His judgement because the criteria is the same for everyone.....and this is why He is NOT the morally ambiguous God of TULIP

I am no Calvinist. Or any other ism or ist. I'm looking to understand the Scriptures. Frankly I am lacking, slow and rather doltish....but there is no way I'm going to let that impede me. Jesus is calling.... I'm going.

 

[cv5]

I am no Calvinist. Or any other ism or ist. I'm looking to understand the Scriptures. Frankly I am lacking, slow and rather doltish....but there is no way I'm going to let that impede me. Jesus is calling.... I'm going.

"The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price."

Softly and Tenderly....

 

[PennEd]

Mr. PennEd we have had this discussion before.

It is not our decision that causes us to be saved ....it is our belief.

Those who state make a decision for Christ or turn from sin and let Jesus rule you life are not preaching the correct Gospel.

Our belief does not lead to a boast...I rather think that it is those who think that God imbued, infused faith in them that have the platform from which to boast.

Do you believe your wife loves you? Did you have to muster that up?

But you still haven't dug down to the bottom. Where did that faith, that you believe come from, and why doesn't EVERYBODY believe if given that faith?