Revelation in Chronological Order?

[Yahshua]

Yes there is a record of what I said

And my response to this question was this



Because if you think the whole things jesus answered only concerned that question, (like MOST of you do, placing all these things in one time period because they ALL pointed to one event. you would be WRONG

I tried to get you to think, But instead you went and PROVED MY POINT, and here you are still arguing with me..

...and I'm trying to get you to actually read, and yet though you're over 50 years old your response amounts to closing your eyes, covering your ears and yelling "blah, blah, blah" like you're immature.

Here's my original question. It's in the RECORD.

So then let's carefully observe recorded history. We can start at the Olivet discourse. Maybe you'd like to answer my questions to Ahwatukee.

Would you agree that Luke 21:5-7 and Matthew 24:1-3 detail the Messiah first answering when the 2nd temple would be destroyed?

^This is the question I asked. Even before this question I listed every question the disciples asked in order, in an earlier post.

This was the earlier post. it's at the end so be sure to READ THE BOTTOM...

...

Matthew 24:1-3
And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and HIS DISCIPLES CAME TO HIM TO SHOW HIM the buildings of the temple.

2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?


The disciples' questions in order:

1) WHEN shall the 2nd temple be destroyed
2) What will be the sign of your coming
3) and [the sign] of the end of the world?


So do you agree with Matthew?

...and if you go back to my original post and READ it you'll also realize that i don't place everything in ONE time period, but place many things across several for the span of these last approx. 2000 years with more remaining.

----

I've been trying to get you to actually read what I wrote and read what the scriptures say, but you don't in either case...but I won't actually sit here and generalize like you have saying "all you people". What people?? Only I've posted this view as far as I can tell.

Like I said and have been saying for many different subjects, you DON'T READ. You just react. This is the bible study room and yet you're not actually willing to study the bible. You just want to misuse the bible to support doctrine you've held onto for decades.

Like the Messiah said, you love your doctrine more than you love what the scriptures actually say, that's why you STILL can't answer my question but rather me go back and forth with you. Anything to stay away from the words I'm pointing out in the passages. Yet I keep pointing us right back to them.

And the most amazing part about your responses is THIS ISN'T EVEN A SALVATION ISSUE; believing in futurism isn't a foundation of christianity and no longer believing in it doesn't make anyone less of a Christian one bit...and yet you treat being a futurist like it's a mark of a true Christian that you must defend. I believed in it too once upon a time.

So instead of actually praising Yah for new possible insight that he's giving the body in an area that EVERYONE OF US is ignorant in - as every member of the body is task with building the body - or instead of being open to seeing if it has any merit, you and others reject it and make this a new battle to fight.

Meanwhile, I came in here to help crossnote with chronology. Root word: Chrono = time.

...At least Ahwatukee addressed the substance, which you're afraid to do.

-----

What did the disciples ask the Messiah FIRST? What was their FIRST concern in Matthew 24:1-3; Mark 13:1-4, and Luke 21;5-7?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

...and I'm trying to get you to actually read, and yet though you're over 50 years old your response amounts to closing your eyes, covering your ears and yelling "blah, blah, blah" like you're immature.

Here's my original question. It's in the RECORD.



^This is the question I asked. Even before this question I listed every question the disciples asked in order, in an earlier post.

This was the earlier post. it's at the end so be sure to READ THE BOTTOM...




...and if you go back to my original post and READ it you'll also realize that i don't place everything in ONE time period, but place many things across several for the span of these last approx. 2000 years with more remaining.

----

I've been trying to get you to actually read what I wrote and read what the scriptures say, but you don't in either case...but I won't actually sit here and generalize like you have saying "all you people". What people?? Only I've posted this view as far as I can tell.

Like I said and have been saying for many different subjects, you DON'T READ. You just react. This is the bible study room and yet you're not actually willing to study the bible. You just want to misuse the bible to support doctrine you've held onto for decades.

Like the Messiah said, you love your doctrine more than you love what the scriptures actually say, that's why you STILL can't answer my question but rather me go back and forth with you. Anything to stay away from the words I'm pointing out in the passages. Yet I keep pointing us right back to them.

And the most amazing part about your responses is THIS ISN'T EVEN A SALVATION ISSUE; believing in futurism isn't a foundation of christianity and no longer believing in it doesn't make anyone less of a Christian one bit...and yet you treat being a futurist like it's a mark of a true Christian that you must defend. I believed in it too once upon a time.

So instead of actually praising Yah for new possible insight that he's giving the body in an area that EVERYONE OF US is ignorant in - as every member of the body is task with building the body - or instead of being open to seeing if it has any merit, you and others reject it and make this a new battle to fight.

Meanwhile, I came in here to help crossnote with chronology. Root word: Chrono = time.

...At least Ahwatukee addressed the substance, which you're afraid to do.

-----

What did the disciples ask the Messiah FIRST? What was their FIRST concern in Matthew 24:1-3; Mark 13:1-4, and Luke 21;5-7?

I think your question has been dealt with by many people Myself included.

So your now saying that all these things did not happen around 70 AD? When did you change your view?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

By the way here is your first response to me, You said I was denying what was true, Not that I misread you.

Again, you denying something doesn't make it not true, especially when it's literally shown for all to see. We have the scriptures. I posted even them word for word. It doesn't matter which version you read each one shows the same exact thing.

1. The disciples tried to show off the 2nd temple to the Messiah.

2. The Messiah said the 2nd temple will be destroyed.

3. The disciples then ask "when" will it happen, and what will be the sign of the Messiah's return.

4. The Messiah then answers step by step, in order

 

[Yahshua]

I think your question has been dealt with by many people Myself included.

So your now saying that all these things did not happen around 70 AD? When did you change your view?

You're the one who responded to a post that wasn't even asked to you EG. Now you don't want to answer my question?

Read. It's fundamental, truly. I'm not going to waste time restating what I've originally and always have said when i just quoted it AGAIN.

And look. Notice that instead of addressing the scriptures you're continuing with me.

It's a yes or no answer to my question. Was the disciples first question to the Messiah about the 2nd temple's destruction?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You're the one who responded to a post that wasn't even asked to you EG. Now you don't want to answer my question?

Read. It's fundamental, truly. I'm not going to waste time restating what I've originally and always have said when i just quoted it AGAIN.

And look. Notice that instead of addressing the scriptures you're continuing with me.

It's a yes or no answer to my question. Was the disciples first question to the Messiah about the 2nd temple's destruction?

Your the one who responded to my post. Saying I did not understand what I was talking about (without reference to everything you are now saying)

What scriptures do I need. I am responding to YOUR RESPONSETO ME.

My response was that was not the only question Period..

Either admit you made a mistake in your first post to me and move on. Or continue to deny.

 

[Yahshua]

Your the one who responded to my post. Saying I did not understand what I was talking about (without reference to everything you are now saying)

What scriptures do I need. I am responding to YOUR RESPONSETO ME.

My response was that was not the only question Period..

Either admit you made a mistake in your first post to me and move on. Or continue to deny.

Did the disciples ask the messiah to first explain when the 2nd temple would be destroyed? Yes or no

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Did the disciples ask the messiah to first explain when the 2nd temple would be destroyed?

Yes,

But that was NOT THE ONLY QUESTION HE ASKED.

Are you satisfied?
(Of course this is how this ALL got started.)!!

 

[Yahshua]

Yes,

But that was NOT THE ONLY QUESTION HE ASKED.

Are you satisfied?
(Of course this is how this ALL got started.)!!

(Lord in heaven help me.) THANK YOU!

Finally.

See? You're still a Christian.

The remaining questions the disciples asked were never denied as my older post points out, but Crossnote, Nehemiah, Ahwatukee and you didn't want to answer what the FIRST question they asked was.

Acknowledging that they were asking about the 2nd temple's destruction means the Messiah wasn't referring to a future temple or a future abomination of desolation in that temple...but yes, he also STILL addressed future events after that.

He was giving a timeline to them no different than what Daniel was given in his prophecies.

...And with us knowing in history when that temple destruction occurred we can mark the start of those prophecies the Messiah gave.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Do you see that the disciples asked when the 2nd temple will be destroyed? The 2nd temple being destroyed was a huge deal to them when they heard it.

I haven't read through this entire thread (only skimmed parts) but I think I get the gist.

His answer to their "temple destroyed" question, in my understanding, is in the section of Luke 21:12-24 only.

Luke 21:23,20 paralleling Matthew 22:7 (but v.8's "THEN SAITH HE to his servants" is what [info] is LATER divulged in the 95ad Revelation, and will involve the Rev7:3 144,000 [of Israel] "servants of our God" [i.e. far future]). Rev1:1/22:6 also saying "things which must come to pass [i.e. the future aspects of the book, like in 4:1/1:19c] IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" which phrase [in caps] I believe speaks to the length of time also mentioned in Lk18:8[context: chpt 17 end] where it says "avenge IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" and then also what is said [to/for/about "the Church which is His body" (incl'g us)] in Rom16:20 "...the God of peace shall bruise Satan under YOUR feet IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]," which, in my view, is part of the reason for our Rapture [1Cor6:3(14)], so once that takes place, then the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period will commence to unfold upon the earth [i.e. "the beginning of birth PANGS (the INITIAL one being mentioned in 1Th5:2-3 at the ARRIVAL of the DOTL time period), aka the SEALS of Rev6]).

So where verse 12 (in Lk21) says, "But BEFORE ALL THESE [BEFORE all these "beginning of birth PANGS" just mentioned in vv.8-11]," the 70ad events must take place [vv.12-24a; with 24b following on from there]


[note: I believe 2Th2:3-9a is covering the same 7-yr period (beg/midd/end) that Dan9:27(26) is]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ EDIT (to add): re: "[note: I believe 2Th2:3-9a is covering the same 7-yr period (beg/midd/end) that Dan9:27(26) is]"

...and I believe that the context of 2Th2 is telling the RELATION [time-wise] of our Rapture [in the air] TO the DOTL [earthly] time period [this SEQUENCE stated 3x in this context; and being the SAME SEQUENCE as the earlier 1Th4-5 passage]

 

[eternally-gratefull]

(Lord in heaven help me.) THANK YOU!

Finally.

See? You're still a Christian.

The remaining questions the disciples asked were never denied as my older post points out, but Crossnote, Nehemiah, Ahwatukee and you didn't want to answer what the FIRST question they asked was.

Acknowledging that they were asking about the 2nd temple's destruction means the Messiah wasn't referring to a future temple or a future abomination of desolation in that temple...but yes, he also STILL addressed future events after that.

He was giving a timeline to them no different than what Daniel was given in his prophecies.

...And with us knowing in history when that temple destruction occurred we can mark the start of those prophecies the Messiah gave.

Can you show me where ANYONE denied anything about the first question?

Frome what I have been reading, EVERYONE HERE claims that the first question was not one stone will be standing, when will that happen, and it was fulfilled in AD 70

So why are you focusing on a question EVERYONE AGREES WITH?

Can you not see my and everyones frustration?

THAT IS WHY I RESPONDED. YES, BUT THAT IS NOT THE ONLY QUESTION.

To get to the questions WE DISAGREE ON.

 

[Yahshua]

...

So where verse 12 (in Lk21) says, "But BEFORE ALL THESE [BEFORE all these "beginning of birth PANGS" just mentioned in vv.8-11]," the 70ad events must take place [vv.12-24a; with 24b following on from there]


[note: I believe 2Th2:3-9a is covering the same 7-yr period (beg/midd/end) that Dan9:27(26) is]

While I don't hold to a literal 7 years, yes the 70AD desolation of Jerusalem must be the start of the birth pangs and the end times.

...now of course how that has been or is being played out is what we're all still wrestling with.

The temple life was such a big deal to the disciples. For the Messiah not to have warned them about it isn't something he would've done...but with our current view of pushing the Olivet discourse prophecies into the future it means they weren't warned at all about 70AD.

 

[Yahshua]

Can you show me where ANYONE denied anything about the first question?

Frome what I have been reading, EVERYONE HERE claims that the first question was not one stone will be standing, when will that happen, and it was fulfilled in AD 70

So why are you focusing on a question EVERYONE AGREES WITH?

Can you not see my and everyones frustration?

THAT IS WHY I RESPONDED. YES, BUT THAT IS NOT THE ONLY QUESTION.

To get to the questions WE DISAGREE ON.

To get to the next questions we work through the first...

Christ answers the disciples first question (2nd temple destruction) with a series of events...we have the benefit of knowing that the 70AD destruction = "The Desolation" mentioned here.


Matthew 24-4-16:

- Deception

- Wars

- Famines

- Earthquakes

- Persecution/death of THEM; his disciples, for their testimony

- Lack of brotherly love

- The abomination of DESOLATION; Flee to mountains!

- Great Tribulation begins

- Days cut short because of the elect



Mark 13-4-16:

- Deception

- Wars

- Earthquakes

- Famines

- Persecution/death of THEM, his disciples, for their testimony

- Lack of brotherly love

- The abomination of DESOLATION; Flee to mountains!

- Days of Tribulation begins

- Days cut short because of the elect



Luke 21:8-21:

- Deception

- Wars

- Earthquakes

- Famines

- Pestilences (diseases)

- Fearful events & signs from heaven (but before this)

- Persecution/death of THEM, his disciples, for their testimony

- Betrayal of kin

- Jerusalem surrounded by armies, know that its DESTRUCTION is near; Flee to mountains!

- Great Tribulation begins (lit. says wrath against these people; Jews)


Now here's Revelation 6 & 7 listed:

- Conquer

- Remove peace (this would be war)

- Scales/balances; three measures of barley for 1 penny (this would be famine)

- Death

- Servants slain/beheaded for their testimony (this would be the disciples)

- great earthquake; signs in the heavens

- hide in mountains from the wrath of the lamb; Great day (this would be 70AD DESOLATION)

- 12k of each tribe sealed before winds loosed; great multitude that comes out of Great Tribulation is shown


...most of this list perfectly matches the events listed in the Olivet discourse leading to the 70AD desolation, and the only reason why it's not a 100% match is because of different wording. But death can come from diseases and people can be conquered through deception.


Conclusion: The first 6 broken seals of Revelation are the same events the Messiah prophesied would lead up to 70AD destruction of the temple, the *start* of the Great Tribulation (i.e. wrath against the Jews), and *start* of the end times.

With this marker set, we can start seeing how the next two questions the disciples asked have been answered.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Nah, Dan9:26 says "desolaTIONS [plural] are determined" (not just singular "desolation").


[it's only Dan12:11 that speaks of the far-future one ("abominaTION of desolaTION" ), with the specific time-alotment remaining referred to, Dan12:6-7,1, and Daniel standing in his "LOT" (resurrected to stand again on the earth) at the END of the days (at the END of the days referred to in this context)]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

So, "the desolation THEREOF" (Lk21:20) is just ONE "desolation" of PLURAL "desolaTIONS" Dan9:26 speaks of, but not speaking of the LATTER "abominaTION of desolaTION [singular]" of Dan12:11 specifically (and of which Jesus spoke in Matt24:15, and why I believe the "THEREFORE" is also stated here in v.15 [meaning, this FOLLOWS or, is AFTER] "the beginning of birth PANGS" / SEALS of vv.4-8, i.e. far-future], unlike the SEQUENCE in Lk21 [where the 70ad events come BEFORE "the beg. of BPs"])

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Sry, ran outta EDIT time, plz remove the bracket-end ( ] ) next to the word "AFTER"

...should read: "[meaning, this FOLLOWS or, is AFTER "the beginning of birth PANGS" / SEALS of vv.4-8, i.e. far-future]"

[and]

"So, "the desolation THEREOF" (Lk21:20) is just ONE "desolation" […]" speaks specifically of "Jerusalem"

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

… but see also Jesus' words in Lk19:41-44, said on Palm Sunday, just before His death later that same week

 

[Ahwatukee]

While I don't hold to a literal 7 years, yes the 70AD desolation of Jerusalem must be the start of the birth pangs and the end times.

...now of course how that has been or is being played out is what we're all still wrestling with.

The temple life was such a big deal to the disciples. For the Messiah not to have warned them about it isn't something he would've done...but with our current view of pushing the Olivet discourse prophecies into the future it means they weren't warned at all about 70AD.

but with our current view of pushing the Olivet discourse prophecies into the future it means they weren't warned at all about 70AD.

The above is false! Jesus gave the disciples warning about the destruction of the temple before they asked their question about the signs of His coming and the end of the age.

"Do you see all these buildings? I tell you the truth, they will be completely demolished. Not one stone will be left on top of another!”

So the above is the information regarding the destruction of the temple and since the Lord already told them about the destruction of the temple, He doesn't comment on it any more, but focuses in on their question regarding the signs of His coming and the end of the age.

The Olivet Discourse is about the future, the very last seven years of the last generation:

"Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened.

This generation (the one where those signs take place) will not pass away until all of those events mentioned have been fulfilled.

The signs is what identifies the generation that the Lord was referring to, which have yet to take place.

When the scripture says, "Then there will be great tribulation such as the world has not seen, from the beginning, until now and never to be equaled again," it is not speaking about the destruction of the temple in 70 AD, as it doesn't fit the criteria. That great tribulation will be identified by all that is recorded in the Olivet Discourse, as well as the events of God's wrath listed in Revelation via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgment which will be taking place at the same time.

Abomination set up during the Middle of the seven years = Daniel 9:27, Matthew 24:15
3 1/2
Y
E
A
R
S
The Lord's return to end the age = Matthew 24:29-31

I guarantee you that you will begin to see the events literally taking place in the future which you are claiming took place in the past, except they will be taking place in the literal sense, i.e. a literal third of the earth and trees being burned up, demonic beings being released from the Abyss, the heat of the sun scorching the inhabitants of the earth with intense heat, etc., etc.

Once you see them taking place verbatim, then you will understand (or you should) that these where not past historic events. For example, when you see some future political ruler establish a seven year covenant with Israel allowing them to build their temple, that should be a red flag to you and those who believe as you do, that the time of God's wrath will have begun with all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments to follow. Once you see this event, then you can expect peace to be taken from the entire world at the next seal, then famine with the combined result of a fourth of the earths population killed within a 3 1/2 period.

I hope that at that time you will realize the false teachings that you have believed in.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Conclusion: The first 6 broken seals of Revelation are the same events the Messiah prophesied would lead up to 70AD destruction of the temple, the *start* of the Great Tribulation (i.e. wrath against the Jews), and *start* of the end times.

Nope.

If you agree that Matt24:4-8 = Mk13:5-8 = Lk21:8-11 ("the beginning of birth PANGS"), then v.12 clearly tells us that "BEFORE ALL THESE [BEFORE all the beginning of BPs just mentioned/described in vv.8-11]" [BEFORE that!] the following verses' events [the 70ad events (vv.12-24a)] must take place, then you can see the SEQUENCE regarding this issue...


70ad events (including their being "led away captive into all the nations" v.24a) must come BEFORE all of the beginning of birth pangs.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

To get to the next questions we work through the first...

Christ answers the disciples first question (2nd temple destruction) with a series of events...we have the benefit of knowing that the 70AD destruction = "The Desolation" mentioned here.


Matthew 24-4-16:

- Deception

- Wars

- Famines

- Earthquakes

- Persecution/death of THEM; his disciples, for their testimony

- Lack of brotherly love

- The abomination of DESOLATION; Flee to mountains!

- Great Tribulation begins

- Days cut short because of the elect



Mark 13-4-16:

- Deception

- Wars

- Earthquakes

- Famines

- Persecution/death of THEM, his disciples, for their testimony

- Lack of brotherly love

- The abomination of DESOLATION; Flee to mountains!

- Days of Tribulation begins

- Days cut short because of the elect



Luke 21:8-21:

- Deception

- Wars

- Earthquakes

- Famines

- Pestilences (diseases)

- Fearful events & signs from heaven (but before this)

- Persecution/death of THEM, his disciples, for their testimony

- Betrayal of kin

- Jerusalem surrounded by armies, know that its DESTRUCTION is near; Flee to mountains!

- Great Tribulation begins (lit. says wrath against these people; Jews)


Now here's Revelation 6 & 7 listed:

- Conquer

- Remove peace (this would be war)

- Scales/balances; three measures of barley for 1 penny (this would be famine)

- Death

- Servants slain/beheaded for their testimony (this would be the disciples)

- great earthquake; signs in the heavens

- hide in mountains from the wrath of the lamb; Great day (this would be 70AD DESOLATION)

- 12k of each tribe sealed before winds loosed; great multitude that comes out of Great Tribulation is shown


...most of this list perfectly matches the events listed in the Olivet discourse leading to the 70AD desolation, and the only reason why it's not a 100% match is because of different wording. But death can come from diseases and people can be conquered through deception.


Conclusion: The first 6 broken seals of Revelation are the same events the Messiah prophesied would lead up to 70AD destruction of the temple, the *start* of the Great Tribulation (i.e. wrath against the Jews), and *start* of the end times.

With this marker set, we can start seeing how the next two questions the disciples asked have been answered.

We do not have to work through the first. If everyone agrees that the first question was fulfilled in. 70 ad

Next!!!!!!