Do you want the truth? Here is the truth about eschatology

[JamOn]

It is all over the scripture:

Dan 7:25He will speak out against the Most High and oppress the saints of the Most High,intending to change the set times and laws, and the saints will be given into his hand for a time, and times, and half a time.

Revelation 11:2
But exclude the courtyard outside the temple. Do not measure it, because it has been given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for 42 months.

Revelation 12:14
But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle to fly from the presence of the serpent to her place in the wilderness, where she was nourished for a time, and times, and half a time.

Daniel 12:7
And the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, raised his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by Him who lives forever, saying, "It will be for a time, times, and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been shattered, all these things will be completed."

Ok but that doesn’t point to a figurative 2300

 

[Noose]

You are ignoring that Revelation says not once but SEVEN times that the book would be fulfilled SHORTLY. You are taking apocalyptic writing and trying to stretch it into 2,000 years and counting which the book itself denies as a possible time frame.

The end times were imminent at the time these scripture were being written, the reason those scriptures that you have misunderstood say what they say, but it doesn't mean the end times are few years or just 3.5 years.

We are even called upon to calculate and it also requires wisdom:

Rev 13:18Here is a call for wisdom: Let the one who has insight calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man, and that number is 666.

The language used here means the number of antichrist's name (Authority) is 666, yet from other parts we know the antichrist's authority spans 3.5 years. So what we are being told to calculate is a simple, earthly arithmetic (the reason they said it is the number of a man). It doesn't necessarily mean that the antichrist is flesh and blood (man) but the calculation is earthly.

And we are able to know the exact moment the end times started:

Rev 14:
13And I heard a voice from heaven telling me to write, “Blessed are the dead—those who die in the Lord from this moment on.”

“Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labors, for their deeds will follow them.”

Yes, from that moment on- means as soon as John penned those words down then the end times had started. This is way after 70AD i can assure you. This statement also means that those that died from that moment backwards are like the OT saints. Those that die in the Lord from that moment onwards (Which we are part of), are considered to have overcome the antichrist.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

You are ignoring that Revelation says not once but SEVEN times that the book would be fulfilled SHORTLY. You are taking apocalyptic writing and trying to stretch it into 2,000 years and counting which the book itself denies as a possible time frame.

Revelation does not have "shortLY [adverb]" 7x. For example, 1:1 and 22:6 are NOUNS [i.e. "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"... not "shortly, immediately, soon" which are ADVERBS, not NOUNS]

 

[bluto]

That does not answer those verses I posted. Jesus did not come to take PHYSICAL death or pain or suffering out of the world. It will always be here. I know you probably don't like that, and that is understandable, but that is what the Scripture says.

Jesus came to do one thing primarily. Bear witness to the truth and offer Himself as a sacrifice for the sins of the world reconciling the world back to Himself that He created.



In the next several paragraphs of your post #93 you make the same error 99% of the church has been making with eschatology for 2,000 years. You make it physical. Easy mistake to make. It's how we think as humans. The church has been doing it for 2,000 years. It's completely wrong.

You even correctly recognize in the Greek that it was currently passing away. Why do you think it is written in the Greek like that? Because the old world was passing away. That was the world of the Law and old covenant Israel. Those believers had escaped it. That's why Paul says they had overcome the wicked one. The same devil that Jesus said was the father of the Pharisees. They had escaped works righteousness that could only condemn humans before a holy God. That's your lust of the flesh. That same works righteousness that would condemn the unbelieving Jews to a horrible death inside Jerusalem in 70 AD. They had escaped that world.

Romans 4:15 and Romans 5:13 say that where there is no law, there is no wrath from God. Only Israel had the law. Gentiles did not have it. That's why the seven last bowls of wrath finish the wrath of God (Rev 15:1). Revelation is about Jerusalem's destruction and the temple.



The new heavens and earth is not physical. It is Christ's kingdom. An eternal and spiritual one. You are looking for sin to be taken out of the world but in Rev 22:14-15 you can see that their are still sinners in the new heavens and earth.

Please, don't assume what I know or don't know. I'm well aware that suffering, pain and death are in the world and it affects even Christians, I'm a rational empircist or realist if you will. I also know why Jesus came the "first" time according to Hebrews 9:28, "so Christ also, having been offered ONCE to bear the sins of many shall appear A SECOND time for salvation (or for deliverance) without reference to sin, to those who eargely await Him."

So what are we going to be delivered from and where will we be physically? Here, I'll give you the short answer from Revelation 21:3-4, "And I heard a lound voice from the throne saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He shall dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be among them. vs4, and He shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there shall no longer be any death; there shall no longer be any mouring, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away."

In other words, John heard the great voice from heaven continue with wonderful comfort and assurance. God will wipe away all tears, every single tear from the believers' eyes. These include the tears shed on earth while they were enduring suffering for the sake of Christ and the gospel. The effects of sin will be forever removed. It will be the final and ultimate consummation of all that was purchased by Christ's death on the cross and guarantered by His resurrection.

In short, He makes all things new, vs5 as in new heavens and a new earth. And your telling me none of this is physical? Tell me, where did all of this pain, crying and suffering happen at? Somewhere in "spiritual" limbo? Your another one that is not "thinking" straight.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[Noose]

Ok but that doesn’t point to a figurative 2300

It does when you come to think of it. You need to calculate Daniel's 70 weeks and see where you'll end up. The last half of 70th week is given to the antichrist. But Revelatiosn says that the number of his name (Authority) is 666 and you are told to calculate his authority- Then?!

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Ok but that doesn’t point to a figurative 2300

Right. And first off, the verse says, "evenings, mornings" (2300 of THOSE), which I believe speaks to the "dailies" [daily offerings/sacrifices done evening and morning]… so this factors out to be 1150 [days] anyway.

"He said to me, 'It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be properly restored.'" - Daniel 8:14

 

[Ahwatukee]

Please read these verses and tell me what they all have in common:

Matt 10:23, Matt 16:27-28, Matt 24:34, Mark 8:38-9:1, Mark 13:30, Luke 9:26-27, Luke 21:31-32, 1 Peter 4:7, James 5:8, 1 John 2:18, Rev 1:1, Rev 1:3, Rev 22:6, Rev 22:7, Rev 22:10, Rev 22:12, Rev 22:20.

Regarding Matt.16:27-28, Luke 9:27-29, Jesus said "there be some standing here who would not taste of death before they see the kingdom of God, the Son of man coming in His kingdom and the kingdom of God coming with power, depending on which gospel you read. Those who were standing there that the Lord was referring to were Peter, John and James. This prophecy was fulfilled a week later when Jesus took them up on a high mountain where those standing there saw him in his glorified state, i.e. the Son of man coming in His kingdom. Peter, John and James got a peek of the Lord in His glorified state. In other words when Jesus said "the kingdom of God coming in power," he was not referring to when He returns to end the age, but them seeing him in His glorified state. Here is another example in reference to the "kingdom of God."

"But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you."

Jesus said the above to those who had said that He was casting out demons through the power of Satan. By His driving out demons by the Spirit of God, He said that "the kingdom of God has come upon you," which was not referring to His second coming, but was referring to Him casting out demons by the power of God. It is the same with Matt.16:27-28, Luke 9:27-29. Those standing there (Peter, John and James), saw the Son of man coming in His kingdom, i.e. the kingdom of God, when they saw the Lord in His glorified state.

Then you have Daniel. He is given a 70 weeks prophecy for his people and his city (Dan 9:24). Daniel Chapters 10-12 give details about that 70 weeks. At the end of that 70 weeks in Daniel 12 we find this:

Daniel 12:4, "seal up the book until the time of the end" Revelation 22:10 says, "Don't seal for the time is at hand"

Daniel 12:7, "when the power of the holy people is completely shattered all will be fulfilled" This occurred with the destruction of the temple in 70 AD.

Daniel 12:7 was not fulfilled with the destruction of the temple. For the decree upon Israel and Jerusalem declares the following:

"Seventy weeks are decreed for your people and your holy city to stop their transgression, to put an end to sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy Place."

Has everlasting righteousness been brought in? Has visions and prophecy been sealed up? None of those things above have been fulfilled.

In addition, the fulfillment of the making of the seven year covenant has not been made, nor the setting of the abomination in the holy place, which takes place 3 1/2 years before the Lord returns to end the age and certainly hasn't happened.

Also, when Jesus said, "this generation shall not pass away until all these things take place," the generation that He was referring to is the one where all of those signs take place. Regarding this, we must add in the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments which will take place leading up to the Lord's return to end the age. And not one of those has yet taken place, nor has the antichrist been revealed.

Daniel 12:13, Daniel is told he will rise to his inheritance at the end of the days (see also Matt 25:34). Jesus said all who believed in Him He would raise on the last day (John 6:39,40,44,54) This was the last day of old covenant Israel in 70 AD and is what Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy is about. His people and their city.

The term "last day" is not pinpointing a specific day, but is referring to the end times, i.e. last days. There are phases or stages to the first resurrection, as they cannot possibly take place at the same time, as demonstrated below.

* Jesus the first fruits = 1 Cor.15:20-23

* The church = John 14:1-3, 1 Thess.4:16, 1 Cor.15:51-53

* The male child (caught up) = Rev.12:5

* Two witnesses = Rev.11:11

* Great tribulation saints = Rev.20:4-6

All of the above belong to the first resurrection and they can't possibly take place at the same time.

Jesus said not one jot or tittle could pass until everything was accomplished. This happened with the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple and the end of old covenant Israel. We have been living in the new heavens and earth (not a physical place) for 2,000 years. God bless you.

From what you said above, I see that you are a preterist. We have not been living in the new heavens and new earth which is a literal, real place. Has this current heaven and earth passed away? The answer is No! Has God wiped every tear from our eyes, with no more sorrow or pain or death? The answer is No! Are we currently living in the new Jerusalem with its walls of 14,000 miles wide, deep and high and with its twelve gates each made from a single pearl with an angel at each gate? The answer is a resounding, NO!

On the night He was betrayed Jesus said, "I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until I drink it anew with you in My Father's kingdom." That would be a literal, real drink of the fruit of the vine with Jesus in His Father's kingdom, i.e. heaven. In further support of this, Jesus said:

"People will come from east and west and north and south, and will recline at the table in the kingdom of God."

"I say to you that many will come from the east and the west to share the banquet with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven."

The scriptures above reveal a literal banquet (wedding feast) in heaven, where all believers will drink of the fruit of the vine with Jesus and not a symbolic one as you have claimed.

 

[JamOn]

Right. And first off, the verse says, "evenings, mornings" (2300 of THOSE), which I believe speaks to the "dailies" [daily offerings/sacrifices done evening and morning]… so this factors out to be 1150 [days] anyway.

"He said to me, 'It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be properly restored.'" - Daniel 8:14

But that based on if He was referring to 2,300 daily offerings, yet it’s not mentioned as such, 2300 evenings and mornings is talking about a actual day in my opinion, for one that is exactly how the Jewish people start and end a day by evening to morning.

 

[Noose]

Can't do it. No man that I am aware of has been able to do it. Claudius Ptolemy is the person who lived in the 2nd century in Alexandria from where we get many of our secular dates from. There is great debate over his calculations. Many disagree that the Persian kings lasted 205 years according to Ptolemy's calculations. In the end, I don't think it matters. I don't need a precise mathematical calculation to believe God. I trust Him.

The dozens of verses I posted at the beginning of this thread make it very clear that the end, and the end of Daniel's 70 weeks, was in 70 AD. I don't know how anybody can dispute that but my fellow Christians always try to. I guess that is up to them. Many people don't like what those verses say because they see it as "taking away" the hope of a "rapture" and a physical escape from things. You can't take away what was never there. But I often get vilified by my fellow Christians. I don't take it personally though. They don't understand and many of them don't want to believe it.

No need to vilify anyone, we all have different understanding of the same.
The many verses that you quoted are talking of the imminence of the end times; i have no problem at all with that, but narrowing down the end times to an event in 70AD can not be supported by those scriptures. You have to understand what Daniel prophesied first. Even Jesus refers you back to Daniel, so you can not do away with Daniel and talk of 70AD.

Daniel prophesied all these things; Jesus merely expounded on it but then referred us back to Daniel.
Jesus also said wars and rumors of wars should not alarm anyone; He was just short of saying 70AD events should not alarm anyone.

I hereby conclude that it was not 70 AD that Jesus spoke of not unless one can show precisely from Daniel's timeline, how they arrived at 70AD.
I can show you from Daniel's timeline how it is not 70AD.

 

[Noose]

Ok but that doesn’t point to a figurative 2300

No, it points to a figurative 3.5 years. 2300 years are actual years.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

But that based on if He was referring to 2,300 daily offerings, yet it’s not mentioned as such, 2300 evenings and mornings is talking about a actual day in my opinion, for one that is exactly how the Jewish people start and end a day by evening to morning.

I do realize they start their day by evening to morning [to next evening] (one day).

I'm saying, if the verse had meant to say "2300 days" it could have used the word "days," but it doesn't. It says "2300 evenings mornings"... (which I believe refer to the "evening sacrifice" as 1, the "morning sacrifice" as 2, and so forth, till you count 2300 of them [...for a total of 1150 days]). It could have said "days" but doesn't... (and involved in the verse is the idea of "shall be cleansed" also [re: "the sanctuary"] ).

In Dan9:21, for example, Daniel uses the phrase " about the time of the evening sacrifice" (this would count a "1" of those... just for example, not saying his time-frame is the same as being referred to in 8:14, or anything like that )

 

[delirious]

Rev 14:
13And I heard a voice from heaven telling me to write, “Blessed are the dead—those who die in the Lord from this moment on.”

What does the next 7 verses say in Rev 14:14-20? It says that it is the last day of old covenant Israel and the resurrection and judgment is taking place. People are leaving Hades and entering heaven in that moment. That's why they are blessed. There is no sleeping for Christians who die after 70 AD because Christ's kingdom has come with the destruction of the temple and the taking away of the law. Christians don't go to Hades anymore because it was cast in the Lake of Fire. They go immediately to be with the Lord.

The resurrection is covered at least 5 times in Revelation. Revelation chapters 7,11,14,19&20. The book is not chronological.

 

[SpoonJuly]

Delirious--- Your name fits you well----

 

[delirious]

Revelation does not have "shortLY [adverb]" 7x. For example, 1:1 and 22:6 are NOUNS [i.e. "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"... not "shortly, immediately, soon" which are ADVERBS, not NOUNS]

We have been over this before. Like many Christians I have interacted with, you do not want to accept what those dozens of verses I listed in my original post plainly and clearly say. You don't want to accept them because it destroys your eschatology.

You are obviously a dispensationalist from your frequent quoting of William Kelly. I think it is ironic that dispensationalists often criticize me for "spiritualizing" Scripture and not taking it "literally". The dispensational hermeneutic, that they argue against me all the time, is that the Bible must always be interpreted literally unless it makes no sense and then, and only then, do you interpret it symbolically. "If the plain sense makes sense seek no other sense!" the dispensationalist loves to exclaim.

Yet you violate your own hermeneutic dozens and dozens of times in the verses I listed at the beginning of this post. Verses that are very plain and clear in their meaning.

 

[Leastamongmany]

Hmmmmm what I am wondering is why this person started this thread when from what he writes he has NO understanding of eschatology!🙏

 

[delirious]

Please, don't assume what I know or don't know. I'm well aware that suffering, pain and death are in the world and it affects even Christians, I'm a rational empircist or realist if you will. I also know why Jesus came the "first" time according to Hebrews 9:28, "so Christ also, having been offered ONCE to bear the sins of many shall appear A SECOND time for salvation (or for deliverance) without reference to sin, to those who eargely await Him."

And Hebrews 10:37 which follows that chapter says, "hoson, hoson, micron" in the Greek. I think you said before you know a little Greek so you probably know what that means but just to remind you in English it means a "very, very little" while. The Greek word Micron is where we get the English word micro from. That salvation came in 70 AD but because you want to make it PHYSICAL, an easy mistake to make, you don't understand it.

In short, He makes all things new, vs5 as in new heavens and a new earth. And your telling me none of this is physical? Tell me, where did all of this pain, crying and suffering happen at? Somewhere in "spiritual" limbo? Your another one that is not "thinking" straight.

You quoted Revelation 21:3-5. Have you ever read Psalm 116? It lists all the elements of crying, sorrow, death and pain that you find in Rev 21:3-4. It is a short Psalm. If, after reading that Psalm, you think it is talking about the physical, please reread it. It is talking about the sorrow and pain and death associated with sin. Sin separates from a holy God. There is no more separation from God since 70 AD. The dead in Hades entered Heaven and Hades was destroyed. Our sins are forgiven and forgotten because Christ accomplished it all. Please stop trying to make it about the physical world. Christ's kingdom is in the Spirit.

 

[Ahwatukee]

What does the next 7 verses say in Rev 14:14-20? It says that it is the last day of old covenant Israel and the resurrection and judgment is taking place. People are leaving Hades and entering heaven in that moment. That's why they are blessed.

First of all, in Rev.1:19 Jesus told John to write the following:

What you have seen = everything recorded from Rev.1:1 thru 1:19

What is now = Represented by the letters to the seven churches and which also represents the entire church period

What will take place later = Everything that takes place after the "what is now," i.e. what takes place after the church period

The "what is now" ends when John hears the voice which sounds like a trumpet (Jesus) saying "come up here and I will show you what must take place after this, which is synonymous with "what must take place later."

Revelation 4:1-2 is a prophetic allusion to the church being caught up, which is why the word "ekklesia" translated as "church" no longer appears in the narrative from that time forward. The "what must take place later" is what takes place after the church period. That said, we are still living in the "what is now" part of what John was told to write. Once the Lord descends and gathers the church, then the "what must take place later" will begin. Everything from chapter 4 in Revelation is future.

There is no sleeping for Christians who die after 70 AD because Christ's kingdom has come with the destruction of the temple and the taking away of the law. Christians don't go to Hades anymore because it was cast in the Lake of Fire.

Since Jesus fulfilled the law on behalf of all who believe, the law still applies to those who have not believed and will be judged by it.

Hades has been in operation since the beginning of history, with the spirits of the unfaithful pouring into it night and day. Death and Hades (personified) don't get thrown into the lake of fire until the great white throne judgment, which takes place after God's wrath on this earth and after the thousand year reign of Christ, which have not yet taken place.

However, you are correct in that those who die in Christ, their spirits depart and go immediately to be in His presence.

The resurrection is covered at least 5 times in Revelation. Revelation chapters 7,11,14,19&20. The book is not chronological.

Yes, Revelation is in chronological order. It is because of your not understanding that there are phases or stages to the resurrection, as I listed out in a previous post. To be clear, there is not just one resurrection event that takes place all at once. Jesus initiated the first resurrection and the church is next, with the two witnesses and the male child to follow and finally the great tribulation saints (but each (group) in his own turn."

 

[Ahwatukee]

We have been over this before. Like many Christians I have interacted with, you do not want to accept what those dozens of verses I listed in my original post plainly and clearly say. You don't want to accept them because it destroys your eschatology.

You are obviously a dispensationalist from your frequent quoting of William Kelly. I think it is ironic that dispensationalists often criticize me for "spiritualizing" Scripture and not taking it "literally". The dispensational hermeneutic, that they argue against me all the time, is that the Bible must always be interpreted literally unless it makes no sense and then, and only then, do you interpret it symbolically. "If the plain sense makes sense seek no other sense!" the dispensationalist loves to exclaim.

Yet you violate your own hermeneutic dozens and dozens of times in the verses I listed at the beginning of this post. Verses that are very plain and clear in their meaning.

"If the plain literal sense makes good sense, then don't seek any other sense," is the correct way to read the word of God, especially Revelation. Surely you're not going to interpret a red dragon with seven heads and ten horns in the literal sense. Therefore a symbolic interpretation is obvious. And chapter 17 gives us the answer as to what those seven heads and ten horns represent. Same with the woman clothed with the sun, with moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelve stars, which scripture also reveals.

Your problem is that you misapply the scriptures that you provide. And that because you have adopted the false teachings of preterism.

Think about what a distortion it is to claim that Matt.24:30-31/Rev.1:7, 19:11-21, was allegorically fulfilled by Titus and his legions. However, if we read this scripture in its plain literal meaning, then Jesus will arrive on the clouds of the sky so that every eye will literally see Him arriving in glory. And He will send out His literal angels to first gather the wicked and then the righteous. From other scriptures we find that at that same time, the nations will be gathered together at Har-Mageddon, an angel will have gathered all of the birds of the air together to eat the flesh of all of those kings, their generals and their armies who will have been killed by that double-edged sword. The beast and the false prophet will be captured and thrown alive into the lake of fire and Satan will be seized and thrown into the Abyss for a thousand years. None of those events taken place! And nothing like that had taken place at the time that temple was destroyed.

 

[delirious]

Regarding Matt.16:27-28, Luke 9:27-29, Jesus said "there be some standing here who would not taste of death before they see the kingdom of God, the Son of man coming in His kingdom and the kingdom of God coming with power, depending on which gospel you read. Those who were standing there that the Lord was referring to were Peter, John and James. This prophecy was fulfilled a week later when Jesus took them up on a high mountain where those standing there saw him in his glorified state, i.e. the Son of man coming in His kingdom. Peter, John and James got a peek of the Lord in His glorified state. In other words when Jesus said "the kingdom of God coming in power," he was not referring to when He returns to end the age, but them seeing him in His glorified state. Here is another example in reference to the "kingdom of God."

We have been over this before. Jesus did not reward anyone "according to their works" at the Transfiguration which shows your interpretation is false.

"Seventy weeks are decreed for your people and your holy city to stop their transgression, to put an end to sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy Place."
Has everlasting righteousness been brought in? Has visions and prophecy been sealed up? None of those things above have been fulfilled.

You don't understand it because you make it PHYSICAL. It is being reconciled to God in the SPIRIT. And all of those things listed in Dan 9:24 were most certainly accomplished in 70 AD.

Also, when Jesus said, "this generation shall not pass away until all these things take place," the generation that He was referring to is the one where all of those signs take place.

We have been over this before too. You want to make "the generation" of Matt 24:34 a final generation because you have to to preserve your dispensationalism. But Jesus uses the Greek word "Genea", translated in English as generation, 25 times in the NT. Jesus uses it one time each in Matt 24:34, Mark 13:30 and Luke 21:32 which are the three versions of the Olivet Discourse. You are disputing the plain meaning of those words and saying it is a final generation but when you look at the other 22 uses of it by Jesus in Scripture He always uses it to refer to His generation.

From what you said above, I see that you are a preterist. We have not been living in the new heavens and new earth which is a literal, real place. Has this current heaven and earth passed away? The answer is No! Has God wiped every tear from our eyes, with no more sorrow or pain or death? The answer is No! Are we currently living in the new Jerusalem with its walls of 14,000 miles wide, deep and high and with its twelve gates each made from a single pearl with an angel at each gate? The answer is a resounding, NO!

And this is why you don't understand eschatology. You try to make it PHYSICAL. Don't feel bad. 99% of Christianity for 2,000 years has tried to make it physical. It's how we naturally think. An easy mistake to make. The kingdom is IN THE SPIRIT.

And before I get accused of being an elitist or thinking I am smarter than everybody let me give you a little background about myself. I held every wrong eschatology for many years before I got to the correct one which is full preterism.

I was a dispensational premillennialist for many years. I was a historic premillennialist for a while. I was a partial preterist for a while. And I was an amillennialist for a while. I know all the schools of eschatology in depth. And I held almost all of them and I was wrong.

They all have the same 2 fatal errors. They ignore the dozens of time statements in Scripture that allow for ONLY a first century fulfillment. And #2, they try to make it physical.

You violate your own dispensational "literal hermeneutic" dozens of times with the verses I listed in my original post to this thread. They are plain, LITERAL, and clear in what they say. You also did it several times in post #147 replying to me. It's funny how you kept the things you liked literal/physical though.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

We have been over this before. Like many Christians I have interacted with, you do not want to accept what those dozens of verses I listed in my original post plainly and clearly say. You don't want to accept them because it destroys your eschatology.

Nope, all I did was show "what I see" in those verses, and it wasn't the same was what you had presented. So where my list (of your same listed verses) DIFFERS from what you've stated, then what I expect is for you to come back with evidence of how it is that I am mistaken so I can then "see THAT" for myself (i.e. learn something). However, all you did was basically say, "you're wrong and obviously don't know what you're talking about, and I'm right." That helps (not ).

You are obviously a dispensationalist from your frequent quoting of William Kelly. I think it is ironic that dispensationalists often criticize me for "spiritualizing" Scripture and not taking it "literally". The dispensational hermeneutic, that they argue against me all the time, is that the Bible must always be interpreted literally unless it makes no sense and then, and only then, do you interpret it symbolically. "If the plain sense makes sense seek no other sense!" the dispensationalist loves to exclaim.

So I'm saying that "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" is NOT the same thing as "quickLY [adverb]/immediateLY [adverb]/soon [adverb]," so I'm not the one that is "changing" words and so forth in order to "fit" my own doctrine, I'm allowing Scripture to say what it ACTUALLY says ["NOUN," here!], rather than changing v.1 to say an "ADVERB" when it does not. [along with 22:6, as 2 of your 7x]

Yet you violate your own hermeneutic dozens and dozens of times in the verses I listed at the beginning of this post. Verses that are very plain and clear in their meaning.

To me, that's almost like saying Jesus INSISTED that ALL of Isaiah 61 was being "fulfilled" the moment He spoke a portion of it in the Lk4 setting, and saying, "this day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears" to be meaning the entire thing (entire chpt 61 etc), that day. Whereas He did not mean the entire thing, only the portion he SAID was "fulfilled" (sure, the listeners may have THOUGHT He meant the entire thing, as well, but this doesn't make it so!) That is how prophecy works. There are abundant "chronology" issues (spelled out in these various texts) that many folks completely disregard, in their quest to make ALL of it "FIT" into 70ad (Preterism... or even the Historicist viewpoint, etc).