Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?
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I think you missed the 2nd point.
The 2nd man did not fall and commit adultery. Neither man fell into that sin
Please reread. Because you can not answer why I thought the second man was not completely obedient,
The 2nd man did not fall and commit adultery. Neither man fell into that sin
Please reread. Because you can not answer why I thought the second man was not completely obedient,
I did reread, and I will think that one over some more. Thank you for the discussion. At first glance my heart has experienced enough to say that any temptation that is averted from anything other than Love of neighbor or God is a sin that remains in the heart.
But, that is not to say that I do not see your point, nor to I wish to frustrate that point, but until the heart is converted from stone/carnality to Flesh/Spirituality/Love it cannot overcome sin in the greater sense, it can only avoid it.
There are people all over the world that are more murderous than Jack the Ripper, but they internalize it for some reason, never manifesting their intent. Are they less a sinner because they obey the letter of the law? What do you think?
My concern is people taking the law out of context. And imposing a burden on people that people can not keep. I grew up in a lawyer type atmosphere, and have witnessed first hand the damage it can cause, Not only in my own life. But people who walked away from God because why bother, they can’t keep Gods law. They struggle in certain areas, and the only help they get is judgment and shame (Which I do no think was Gods plan at all) and and the other extreme of people who are so puffed up and arrogant, all they do is go around and judge people. Instead of trying to be like Jesus and share the truth that can heal those people. (Sadly we have seen many of these types here in CC. And it is sickening to say the least)
I am not militant, I am passionate, because of this. I pray you understand the difference.
I am not militant, I am passionate, because of this. I pray you understand the difference.
I hear you and I agree with your observations and I too find callous judgement and arrogance one and the same; carnal men commandeering the moral laws of God and using them to exact revenge upon others and or to do the opposite of what God intended by claiming piety where there is none!
I came up with a funny but sad statement/claim that I think the arrogant would say if it weren't for the absurdity of it;
"I used to have a problem with pride and arrogance, but I rose above it!"
You know what I mean.
This is a difficult one to not be affected by
E
I did reread, and I will think that one over some more. Thank you for the discussion. At first glance my heart has experienced enough to say that any temptation that is averted from anything other than Love of neighbor or God is a sin that remains in the heart.
But, that is not to say that I do not see your point, nor to I wish to frustrate that point, but until the heart is converted from stone/carnality to Flesh/Spirituality/Love it cannot overcome sin in the greater sense, it can only avoid it.
There are people all over the world that are more murderous than Jack the Ripper, but they internalize it for some reason, never manifesting their intent. Are they less a sinner because they obey the letter of the law? What do you think?
But, that is not to say that I do not see your point, nor to I wish to frustrate that point, but until the heart is converted from stone/carnality to Flesh/Spirituality/Love it cannot overcome sin in the greater sense, it can only avoid it.
There are people all over the world that are more murderous than Jack the Ripper, but they internalize it for some reason, never manifesting their intent. Are they less a sinner because they obey the letter of the law? What do you think?
Not to mention. If we are continually focused on the command, We are continually focused on self. And temptation is right around the corner, because the sin is always on our mind, whereas if we are like christ and not looking at the command, but in love, we are not even focused on the other persons sin, we are focused on their souls. (I have witnessed this so many times. I actually made me afraid to go on visitation, because all people did was judge, Not give the good news)
Jesus tried to show us what it looks like when we focus on the letter. We can fool ourselves into thinking we are ok. When in reality we are not. As he said, the law says do not commit adultry, but if you look at a woman with lust you are in sin.
As scripture says, the letter kills. While the spirit gives life.
The tablets of stone, which were given to condemn as Grandpa was showing, I do not honestly see how we can focus on these things, if we truly know and understand them, and be horrified daily at how sinful we really are. I know myself. The close I get to god. The more sinful I realize I really was, And the more I see my flesh and how strong it is..
The law is not done away with. It is still there, still condemning those who do not fulfill it (everyone) but God also has given us a way, not only by sharing his true love, but being our example.
I doubt jesus walked around with the commandments flowing through his mind all the time, I think he walked around seeking who he could serve. And love, and out of this, he fulfilled the law.
E
I hear you and I agree with your observations and I too find callous judgement and arrogance one and the same; carnal men commandeering the moral laws of God and using them to exact revenge upon others and or to do the opposite of what God intended by claiming piety where there is none!
I came up with a funny but sad statement/claim that I think the arrogant would say if it weren't for the absurdity of it;
"I used to have a problem with pride and arrogance, but I rose above it!"
You know what I mean.
This is a difficult one to not be affected by
I came up with a funny but sad statement/claim that I think the arrogant would say if it weren't for the absurdity of it;
"I used to have a problem with pride and arrogance, but I rose above it!"
You know what I mean.
This is a difficult one to not be affected by
We should be spreading the good news. Not the judgment, A non believer knows he is a sinner, the law convicts him as does the spirit who shows him.
Do you believe as preston does that salvation can not occur UNTIL the work of water baptism is accomplished in a persons life? Just asking. Not sure you know he believes this way.
If a man accepts justification through Christs righteousness I believe he stands forgiven, yet remains carnal until he is "baptized" with the Holy Spirit under whose influence he is literally saved from his carnal nature and then is "in Christ" meaning; "in the anointing".
So how long can a man stand in "unmerited justification" without receiving the baptism in the Holy spirit? What do you think?
E
If a man accepts justification through Christs righteousness I believe he stands forgiven, yet remains carnal until he is "baptized" with the Holy Spirit under whose influence he is literally saved from his carnal nature and then is "in Christ" meaning; "in the anointing".
So how long can a man stand in "unmerited justification" without receiving the baptism in the Holy spirit? What do you think?
So how long can a man stand in "unmerited justification" without receiving the baptism in the Holy spirit? What do you think?
At that point he has a clean slate. He is perfect. The next sin he commits, Christ our high priest takes care of that sin, as a good high priest does. The HS who is in us, Convicts us and chastens us, Which should lead us to confession. We are also on a lifelong training session of learning what true sin is (the commands only give us a glimpse of what sin is, they are not all inclusive)
Of course. Gods first command is to be baptized as a new disciple. As a witness and testimony to the world. And a symbol of the spiritual baptism performed by God himself at the moment of faith.
But most churches do not immediately do that, It may take a few months. My own church has a big baptism party. So they wait until the get enough who swish to be baptised and have a big party in the parking lot. We bring our friends family and others, and a great witness of the power of God is proclaimed, We have seen many salvations through these events.
But remember, According to Preston That person is not completely saved UNTIL they are washed in the waters of baptism, God forbid if a person would die before they had that opportunity.
I think the person who resists sin because they read the law and the commandment said thou shalt not. Is not doing it out of love, they are doing it from a self righteous attitude, They are doing doing it out of duty, and not love. I think this is the point Jesus was trying to make, when he made that proclamation about love fulfills the law.
Not to mention. If we are continually focused on the command, We are continually focused on self. And temptation is right around the corner, because the sin is always on our mind, whereas if we are like christ and not looking at the command, but in love, we are not even focused on the other persons sin, we are focused on their souls. (I have witnessed this so many times. I actually made me afraid to go on visitation, because all people did was judge, Not give the good news)
Jesus tried to show us what it looks like when we focus on the letter. We can fool ourselves into thinking we are ok. When in reality we are not. As he said, the law says do not commit adultry, but if you look at a woman with lust you are in sin.
As scripture says, the letter kills. While the spirit gives life.
The tablets of stone, which were given to condemn as Grandpa was showing, I do not honestly see how we can focus on these things, if we truly know and understand them, and be horrified daily at how sinful we really are. I know myself. The close I get to god. The more sinful I realize I really was, And the more I see my flesh and how strong it is..
The law is not done away with. It is still there, still condemning those who do not fulfill it (everyone) but God also has given us a way, not only by sharing his true love, but being our example.
I doubt jesus walked around with the commandments flowing through his mind all the time, I think he walked around seeking who he could serve. And love, and out of this, he fulfilled the law.
Not to mention. If we are continually focused on the command, We are continually focused on self. And temptation is right around the corner, because the sin is always on our mind, whereas if we are like christ and not looking at the command, but in love, we are not even focused on the other persons sin, we are focused on their souls. (I have witnessed this so many times. I actually made me afraid to go on visitation, because all people did was judge, Not give the good news)
Jesus tried to show us what it looks like when we focus on the letter. We can fool ourselves into thinking we are ok. When in reality we are not. As he said, the law says do not commit adultry, but if you look at a woman with lust you are in sin.
As scripture says, the letter kills. While the spirit gives life.
The tablets of stone, which were given to condemn as Grandpa was showing, I do not honestly see how we can focus on these things, if we truly know and understand them, and be horrified daily at how sinful we really are. I know myself. The close I get to god. The more sinful I realize I really was, And the more I see my flesh and how strong it is..
The law is not done away with. It is still there, still condemning those who do not fulfill it (everyone) but God also has given us a way, not only by sharing his true love, but being our example.
I doubt jesus walked around with the commandments flowing through his mind all the time, I think he walked around seeking who he could serve. And love, and out of this, he fulfilled the law.
Listen EG, My dad raised me with patience and love and kindness and he demonstrated that to everyone/ He loves God to this day. He is certainly not a perfect man, but the love he walks in covers all his imperfections in my eyes. I have that as my foundation in life. So the my relationship with the law is not preempted with negativity, but lovely thoughts.
When I read His righteous requirements the first thing that comes to mind is how loving our Creator is.was and always will be to give us a moral code that insures peace and tranquility if honored. I often consider how blessed we all are to have a moral, just, loving, yet insistent Creator!
So, yeah, the low condemned me! But only because I was bad and it is good.
If I had a the memories you do I can see how I might have negative thoughts too when I consider the law, BUT, the Law is good brother, but carnality poisons everything, not the law.
No
Stick around and listen to him, You will see quite the opposite is true
Stick around and listen to him, You will see quite the opposite is true
Okay, I will naturally keep my eyes open, but let me ask you in a more objective manner. If someone who has received the baptism in the Holy Spirit and is walking in it speaks of the Law, would you recognize his love of the law as good and healthy and something to be commended?
E
Listen EG, My dad raised me with patience and love and kindness and he demonstrated that to everyone/ He loves God to this day. He is certainly not a perfect man, but the love he walks in covers all his imperfections in my eyes. I have that as my foundation in life. So the my relationship with the law is not preempted with negativity, but lovely thoughts.
When I read His righteous requirements the first thing that comes to mind is how loving our Creator is.was and always will be to give us a moral code that insures peace and tranquility if honored. I often consider how blessed we all are to have a moral, just, loving, yet insistent Creator!
So, yeah, the low condemned me! But only because I was bad and it is good.
If I had a the memories you do I can see how I might have negative thoughts too when I consider the law, BUT, the Law is good brother, but carnality poisons everything, not the law.
When I read His righteous requirements the first thing that comes to mind is how loving our Creator is.was and always will be to give us a moral code that insures peace and tranquility if honored. I often consider how blessed we all are to have a moral, just, loving, yet insistent Creator!
So, yeah, the low condemned me! But only because I was bad and it is good.
If I had a the memories you do I can see how I might have negative thoughts too when I consider the law, BUT, the Law is good brother, but carnality poisons everything, not the law.
How can this cause joy in a persons life?
The law says do not commit adultery. How can that help you not commit adultery, Where does it show you how this is accomplished?
I think if you read Pauls response to lawyers. You will find he has the same disdain as I do. It is not just from my past.
Also. If your walking around focused on the commands, When do you have time to think about others? How can you see when God has someone for you to serve. How can you do many things (notice, I did not say focused on Gods word. I said focused on commands)
E
Okay, I will naturally keep my eyes open, but let me ask you in a more objective manner. If someone who has received the baptism in the Holy Spirit and is walking in it speaks of the Law, would you recognize his love of the law as good and healthy and something to be commended?
If they are focused on law for sanctification. Then I am worried about them, Because they are focused on the tutor, not on the spirit. Do you understand what this means? And why I am this way?
i can say I love Gods law. I do. It led me to christ. But you will not see me going around preaching how people need to focus on it.. or how it is required to obey it. Or it is a means of sanctification. Because it was not given for that purpose.
The law requires perfection. (Whoever does not obey ever word is under a curse)
How can this cause joy in a persons life?
The law says do not commit adultery. How can that help you not commit adultery, Where does it show you how this is accomplished?
I think if you read Pauls response to lawyers. You will find he has the same disdain as I do. It is not just from my past.
Also. If your walking around focused on the commands, When do you have time to think about others? How can you see when God has someone for you to serve. How can you do many things (notice, I did not say focused on Gods word. I said focused on commands)
How can this cause joy in a persons life?
The law says do not commit adultery. How can that help you not commit adultery, Where does it show you how this is accomplished?
I think if you read Pauls response to lawyers. You will find he has the same disdain as I do. It is not just from my past.
Also. If your walking around focused on the commands, When do you have time to think about others? How can you see when God has someone for you to serve. How can you do many things (notice, I did not say focused on Gods word. I said focused on commands)
EG, Did I say I "walk around focused on the commands"? No. Did I say the Law helps me "to not sin"? No. Why do you keep ignoring my declaration that the Holy Spirit, the anointing, the Baptism into Christ is what helps me to hate sin and love the law by effecting a change in my attitude towards God and neighbor.
Please, answer my questions in here.
It would depend. Thats why I ask so many questions.
If they are focused on law for sanctification. Then I am worried about them, Because they are focused on the tutor, not on the spirit. Do you understand what this means? And why I am this way?
i can say I love Gods law. I do. It led me to christ. But you will not see me going around preaching how people need to focus on it.. or how it is required to obey it. Or it is a means of sanctification. Because it was not given for that purpose.
If they are focused on law for sanctification. Then I am worried about them, Because they are focused on the tutor, not on the spirit. Do you understand what this means? And why I am this way?
i can say I love Gods law. I do. It led me to christ. But you will not see me going around preaching how people need to focus on it.. or how it is required to obey it. Or it is a means of sanctification. Because it was not given for that purpose.
I would recommend that you focus your concerns by asking pointed questions regarding what we have been putting a fine point on. And please, watch the assertions, wait for words to confirm your fears or whatever they are. I don't want to mischaracterize them.
Be back in a few, got critters to feed, dogs to walk and equipment to repair afer it gets really uncomfortable in the shade!
E
EG, Did I say I "walk around focused on the commands"? No. Did I say the Law helps me "to not sin"? No. Why do you keep ignoring my declaration that the Holy Spirit, the anointing, the Baptism into Christ is what helps me to hate sin and love the law by effecting a change in my attitude towards God and neighbor.
Please, answer my questions in here.
Please, answer my questions in here.
I am just basing my understanding on what you have said in the past.
Remember when we first started talking. I mentioned how we are not justified by the law. Nor could it make us righteous. Your response was as follows
Okay, then what would you prefer to call sanctification?
Thats why we ask questions.
There are so many lawyers in here who come in pushing the law as a means of sanctification. When you see others who appear to be headed that way, You ask questions to make sure that is what they are doing so you do not falsely accuse.
E
Did I ever say I focused on the Law? Or, Did I declare, or echo the sentiment of the Holy Spirit concerning the Law.
I would recommend that you focus your concerns by asking pointed questions regarding what we have been putting a fine point on. And please, watch the assertions, wait for words to confirm your fears or whatever they are. I don't want to mischaracterize them.
Be back in a few, got critters to feed, dogs to walk and equipment to repair afer it gets really uncomfortable in the shade!
I would recommend that you focus your concerns by asking pointed questions regarding what we have been putting a fine point on. And please, watch the assertions, wait for words to confirm your fears or whatever they are. I don't want to mischaracterize them.
Be back in a few, got critters to feed, dogs to walk and equipment to repair afer it gets really uncomfortable in the shade!
I did that in the beginning of our conversation, with many as my witness, You refused to answer them.
So instead of judging me, Consider why I assume things that I do. Because I have no other way to base my assumptions on. Because so many who have come before you did the very same thing, and it was shown in the end, that is exactly what they did (again, not accusing you, Just stating a fact, I can only pray you are not that way)
Then why do you keep talking about the law and asking about the law?
I am just basing my understanding on what you have said in the past.
Remember when we first started talking. I mentioned how we are not justified by the law. Nor could it make us righteous. Your response was as follows
How can I think other than you believe the law is the means of how one is sanctified? Since you in this question essentially put them together.
Thats why we ask questions.
There are so many lawyers in here who come in pushing the law as a means of sanctification. When you see others who appear to be headed that way, You ask questions to make sure that is what they are doing so you do not falsely accuse.
I am just basing my understanding on what you have said in the past.
Remember when we first started talking. I mentioned how we are not justified by the law. Nor could it make us righteous. Your response was as follows
How can I think other than you believe the law is the means of how one is sanctified? Since you in this question essentially put them together.
Thats why we ask questions.
There are so many lawyers in here who come in pushing the law as a means of sanctification. When you see others who appear to be headed that way, You ask questions to make sure that is what they are doing so you do not falsely accuse.
Okay, here's a drive by answer...meaning I'm between two chores, but this is important. I won't criticize anyone for studying the law, otherwise I would sit in judgement on Joshua, David and essentially all the saints.
Joshua 1:8 he recommends meditating on the Law day and night, David is enamored with the Law. How can you Love God with all your mind? How do you love God with all your mind when essentially everything He has ever said to man was His laws or how man was or was not keeping His laws?