Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?

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Mar 14, 2011
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EG, I'm sure you do love the law. Taking care of your neighbors animals if they show up on your property, saving back fruit of crops for the poor, taking care of widows, the fatherless. Why argue against what you agree with?
I do not look to the law of moses for my advice. Or my teacher, it already taught me what I needed to know and led me to christ. Because I could not keep it. All it ever did was condemn me.

I look to the law of Christ. Do you know the difference?
 
May 1, 2019
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hi SimpleGardner,

I would like to discuss the phrase
under the law
with you.

I think a good way of putting it in English is
obligated to take on the physical and spiritual actions and attitudes described in the law delivered through Moses to Israel in the wilderness.

or to put it a shorter way
required to do the things in the law.

if we use the definition
under the burden of the law

or

buried by the immense pressure of the law

I don't think that works as well



for example
1 Corinthians 9: 20. To the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain those who are under the law.

does Paul mean that when witnessing to observant Jews he takes on a lifestyle in which he is under the burden of the law or or buried by the immense pressure of it?

I don't think so. I think he is saying that he takes on a lifestyle where he performs the physical actions described in the law.

Hey Dan473,

I will consider that.

My way of looking at "under the Law" was from what Peter said first:

Act 15:10 KJV Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

Thinking of "beast of burden" which were animals under the "yoke" or "heavy Harness" for a draft horse. the idea was the same.

Then also where where Jesus mentioned;

Mat 11:28-30 KJV Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. (29) Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. (30) For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.


Jesus knew the law was a heavy burden and he knew that those who were entrusted with the responsibility to help His people shoulder the burden did nothing compared to what He does for us. There he said:

Mat 23:3-4 KJV All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. (4) For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

The part I highlighted shows the Pharisees were "Unrighteous Hippocrates" Hence the reason Jesus in Matthew said:

Mat 5:20 KJV For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

I don't think Jesus was intimating that the Pharisees are these "uber-righteous" dudes, and you have no hope of getting even close to their holiness. I think he was warning his disciples that while they do hold the office that Moses did, they don't do what they say, you had better do better than they are! Does that sound correct to you?
 
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NEITHER ARE YOU.

If you want to avoid coming across as a complete hypocrite, don't misrepresent the views of others and then complain that your views are being misrepresented.



Was Paul gentle, peaceable, and quiet-spirited when he confronted the Judaizers? Um, no. He was direct and firm, because he knew that the message they taught was contrary to the gospel. Nobody here is saying anything "bad" about God's commands. We're saying that as Christians, we aren't subject to them for righteousness. There is a massive difference!



What do hungry and thirsty people do once they have been filled? Do they go on being hungry and thirsty? No; they are satisfied.

We as Christians have been filled. We aren't still hungering and thirsting, and if we do temporarily, we repent of known sin and trust again in the forgiveness and righteousness of Christ. We don't seek to be obedient to the Law to become righteous.

However, that doesn't mean that we cut the Old Testament from our Bibles, but that is essentially what you seem to believe.

First point, I don't want to frustrate this discussion with hypocrisy. I will pay closer attention.

Second, glad to hear you say that about God's commands. Amazing isn't it? I have said 20 times if I said it once that our "Justification" or "imputed Righteousness" is through Jesus not our works or attempts at righteousness! BUT, I say, and I think you would to, if only you would say it, that once justified, our imputed righteousness allows us to receive the Holy Spirit which renews our hearts/minds to love the moral laws of God. This is what I refer to as "sanctification", a process.

1Co_1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
1Th_4:3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
1Th_4:4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
2Th_2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
1Pe_1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

As far as hunger and thirsting after righteousness...since we never reach perfection we must strive as Paul said:

Php 3:11-14 KJV If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. (12) Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. (13) Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, (14) I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Forgive me if I came across as if I wanted to "cut the OT from our Bibles" if you point that out I will correct that.
 
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I do not look to the law of moses for my advice. Or my teacher, it already taught me what I needed to know and led me to christ. Because I could not keep it. All it ever did was condemn me.

I look to the law of Christ. Do you know the difference?

Hey EG, Yes I do understand the difference.

Mat 22:37-40 KJV Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. (38) This is the first and great commandment. (39) And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. (40) On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

I do not think that these supersede the commandments, rather they are supreme summations of them.

To care for the widows and the fatherless are to recognize both commandments at the same time.

Psa 68:5 KJV A father of the fatherless, and a judge of the widows, is God in his holy habitation.

So to care for those He personally cares for and who are also our neighbors in need is essentially two birds.

Every single command and judgement in the OT falls under the purview of the two greatest commandments! How much simpler is that?! Does that mean that I do not read and study the OT? No, Rather it inspires me to know it better especially to listen as His Holy Spirit frames each and every word within the structure of Jesus' two greatest commandments!

I hope you will eventually hear my words about our absolute need for Justification, unmerited Righteousness of Christ! I would never confuse a person who is being drawn by the Father to Jesus with the Law except to acknowledge what we all did; we are/were sinners. You have never heard me say that, but you infer it onto me. I know you mean well, but there is a better way to get here EG., Also, I would never confuse a new convert who is groping their way through the battles of carnality and spirituality where grace and unmerited Justification through Jesus as well as faith in His promise to deliver us through it all by perfecting our faith and His desire, promise and ability to do what He promised! Jesus has already done it! so much so that Abraham latched onto the work of Jesus and appropriated it unto himself before Jesus was even born! Now that's FAITH!
 

DeighAnn

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
Jun 11, 2019
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You have completely misrepresented the position of those who disagree with you. Instead of spreading slander, take some time to understand the position that others hold.
YES, I completely AGREE WITH YOU, that does seem to be the problem.

Not "Correctly stating" what others believe.

When we state what "we believe" someone else believes, and are wrong, and on top of that incorrect assumption continue on to tell what is wrong with that belief, we not only cease to move forward, but in fact fall back, causing confusion, when our goal ought to be to dispel it.

MAYBE with YOU pointing that out, others will see, and we can then all start to present what we know and believe, back it up with scripture, and allow others to do the same.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Hey EG, Yes I do understand the difference.

Mat 22:37-40 KJV Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. (38) This is the first and great commandment. (39) And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. (40) On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

I do not think that these supersede the commandments, rather they are supreme summations of them.

To care for the widows and the fatherless are to recognize both commandments at the same time.

Psa 68:5 KJV A father of the fatherless, and a judge of the widows, is God in his holy habitation.

So to care for those He personally cares for and who are also our neighbors in need is essentially two birds.

Every single command and judgement in the OT falls under the purview of the two greatest commandments! How much simpler is that?! Does that mean that I do not read and study the OT? No, Rather it inspires me to know it better especially to listen as His Holy Spirit frames each and every word within the structure of Jesus' two greatest commandments!

I hope you will eventually hear my words about our absolute need for Justification, unmerited Righteousness of Christ! I would never confuse a person who is being drawn by the Father to Jesus with the Law except to acknowledge what we all did; we are/were sinners. You have never heard me say that, but you infer it onto me. I know you mean well, but there is a better way to get here EG., Also, I would never confuse a new convert who is groping their way through the battles of carnality and spirituality where grace and unmerited Justification through Jesus as well as faith in His promise to deliver us through it all by perfecting our faith and His desire, promise and ability to do what He promised! Jesus has already done it! so much so that Abraham latched onto the work of Jesus and appropriated it unto himself before Jesus was even born! Now that's FAITH!
See you see it different

The law says don’t do this or that. Or do this and that. But it also has with it a requirement. Obey ever word or be under a curse. For cursed us the one who does not obey every word. The law was given to expose our sin. Not teach us how to be righteous it exposes our sin which was its purpose

To me it does not tell us how to obey it just tells us what it looks like when we do not

The law of Christ or live shows us how to be obedient. To love god and others. When we do this by practice we will be obedient!

An example

One man has a woman who temps him yet he loves his wife so he does not even think of falling

The other thinks of the law. The law says do not commit adultery. So his focus is on being obedient the focus is not looking be but obedience

Which one actually was obedient? I think many would say both but I disagree can you think why I disagree?

As for justification. I ask because a lot of lawyers I talk to preach grace but do. It practice it. So I wanted to find out which one you were
 
May 1, 2019
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See you see it different

The law says don’t do this or that. Or do this and that. But it also has with it a requirement. Obey ever word or be under a curse. For cursed us the one who does not obey every word. The law was given to expose our sin. Not teach us how to be righteous it exposes our sin which was its purpose

To me it does not tell us how to obey it just tells us what it looks like when we do not

The law of Christ or live shows us how to be obedient. To love god and others. When we do this by practice we will be obedient!

An example

One man has a woman who temps him yet he loves his wife so he does not even think of falling

The other thinks of the law. The law says do not commit adultery. So his focus is on being obedient the focus is not looking be but obedience

Which one actually was obedient? I think many would say both but I disagree can you think why I disagree?

As for justification. I ask because a lot of lawyers I talk to preach grace but do. It practice it. So I wanted to find out which one you were
Do you think I'm a lawyer!? :O
 

oldethennew

Senior Member
Feb 28, 2016
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our Lord gave Moses The Law -
our Lord kept The Law -
JOHN 5:46.
For had you believed Moses, you would have believed Me: for he wrote of Me.

why this continual 'argument/disagreement' daily arises and separates brethren
is ever so obvious - do you all see/understand why this is such a 'spirit of contention'???
1CO. 1:10.
Now I beseech you, brethren, by The Name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing,
and that there be no divisions among you; but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind
and in the same judgment.

ECC. 12:13.
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep His Commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
REV. 14:12.
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep The Commandments of God, and The Faith of Jesus.
PS. 119:165.
Great peace have they that love Thy Law: and nothing shall offend them.
this is one of the ABC songs - acrostic...
 
May 1, 2019
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See you see it different

The law says don’t do this or that. Or do this and that. But it also has with it a requirement. Obey ever word or be under a curse. For cursed us the one who does not obey every word. The law was given to expose our sin. Not teach us how to be righteous it exposes our sin which was its purpose

To me it does not tell us how to obey it just tells us what it looks like when we do not

The law of Christ or live shows us how to be obedient. To love god and others. When we do this by practice we will be obedient!

An example

One man has a woman who temps him yet he loves his wife so he does not even think of falling

The other thinks of the law. The law says do not commit adultery. So his focus is on being obedient the focus is not looking be but obedience

Which one actually was obedient? I think many would say both but I disagree can you think why I disagree?

As for justification. I ask because a lot of lawyers I talk to preach grace but do. It practice it. So I wanted to find out which one you were
Not sure what happened but I did reply to your question. Where it went I don't know...

You don't think too much different than most of us.

The one who was tempted but didn't yield, was blameless/sinless because his actions were tempered by Love for his wife, and by extension love and admiration for his savior who literally died for him.

The second man like the man who didn't commit adultry but wanted to was guilty in his heart, because his heart remains carnal, where all decisions are made out of self love rather than Love for God and Neighbor! At no time did his heart consider his Creators will, His wifes interests and heart nor the woman who was tempting him.
 
May 1, 2019
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our Lord gave Moses The Law -
our Lord kept The Law -
JOHN 5:46.
For had you believed Moses, you would have believed Me: for he wrote of Me.

why this continual 'argument/disagreement' daily arises and separates brethren
is ever so obvious - do you all see/understand why this is such a 'spirit of contention'???
1CO. 1:10.
Now I beseech you, brethren, by The Name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing,
and that there be no divisions among you; but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind
and in the same judgment.

ECC. 12:13.
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep His Commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
REV. 14:12.
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep The Commandments of God, and The Faith of Jesus.
PS. 119:165.
Great peace have they that love Thy Law: and nothing shall offend them.
this is one of the ABC songs - acrostic...

Pray for us brother...I think we are getting there.
 

oldethennew

Senior Member
Feb 28, 2016
10,754
2,626
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PS. 133:1.
[A Song of degrees of David.]
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!
2.
It is like the precious ointment upon the head, that ran down upon the beard, even Aaron's beard:
that went down to the skirts of his garments;
3.
As the dew of Hermon, and as the dew that descended upon the mountains of Zion:
for there The LORD Commanded the Blessing, 'even Life for Evermore'.

oh how we Love these scriptures - the Unity of the brethren is compared to the
Anointing of The High Priest... in old times, it wasn't just a 'little anointing', but,
they were 'drenched' in Holy Oil...
 
May 1, 2019
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PS. 133:1.
[A Song of degrees of David.]
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!
2.
It is like the precious ointment upon the head, that ran down upon the beard, even Aaron's beard:
that went down to the skirts of his garments;
3.
As the dew of Hermon, and as the dew that descended upon the mountains of Zion:
for there The LORD Commanded the Blessing, 'even Life for Evermore'.

oh how we Love these scriptures - the Unity of the brethren is compared to the
anointing of The High Priest... in old times, it wasn't just a 'little anointing', but,
they were 'drenched' in Holy Oil...

Big Smile! :) at the oil comment and yes there is such liberation when unity is acheived and also AND MOST IMPORTANT where Jesus is in the midst of them!

You took Paul seriously when you read:

Php 4:8 KJV Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

We are blessed!
 

DeighAnn

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
Jun 11, 2019
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Except for the Hebrew name for "Lawyer" is "Pharisee"! Yikes!!:)
None the less, I could use some good legal advice and good Christian Lawyers are hard to find. And they could call all the names they want, it all comes down to Heb 4:12
 
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None the less, I could use some good legal advice and good Christian Lawyers are hard to find. And they could call all the names they want, it all comes down to Heb 4:12

Definitely hard to argue with that one.

I have noted from EG that one of his concerns about people who argue the Law is whether they argue adherence to it from a militant "do it or else"/from a spirit of fear or do they obey the law from a spirit of love for one another and God? I only wish that two way discussion started sooner. But, if that is his contention then it is valid and we are in unity.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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The law was given to expose our sin. Not teach us how to be righteous it exposes our sin which was its purpose
This is one of the major fallacies among Christians, even though the Scriptures are all there.

1. The Ten Commandments were given primarily to establish God's standard of righteousness and holiness -- firstly for Israel and secondly for all mankind. They are God's moral and spiritual standards, and also underlie many human laws.

2. The Ten Commandments were distilled by Christ into the two GREATEST COMMANDMENTS (both from within the Torah). And both those commandments include the word "LOVE".

3. The Law of Christ consists of obedience to the Ten Commandments by the power of the Spirit. Thus "LOVE is the fulfilling of the Law".

4. For unbelievers, the Ten Commandments bring condemnation and establish that "The whole world is guilty before God". Therefore they drive sinners to the Savior.
And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. (Rom 7:10)

5. Paul made it crystal clear that the Law (the Ten Commandments) are holy, just, and good.
Wherefore the Law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. (Rom 7:12)

6. The Ten Commandments were not given so that observing them would earn someone eternal life. Sinners are justified by grace through faith, and receive the GIFT of eternal life.
Therefore by the deeds of the Law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the Law is the knowledge of sin. (Rom 3:20)

All of this means that Christians need to keep a proper balance in their thinking about the Ten Commandments. The Holy Spirit writes them on the hearts and minds of those who are born again. God NEVER abolished the Ten Commandments.