Gospel or theology?

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Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
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I look after church library, and nobody really reads those fat theology books. They are only in there because the pastor doesnt know what to do with them. Im sure nobody would miss them if they were thrown in the bin. (Gasp!)

Why because they are redundant when you read all of the Bible.

What really moves people are reading peoples testimonies.

Theologians dont have testimonies, they only have theories and arguments. And tonnes of footnotes. I have tried reading a few but my conclusion is most are written by a bunch of agnostics or academic christians trying to impress their athiest friends. But why are they friends with athiests in the first place? Athiests arent the most friendly people to hang around with, especially when you tell them you are a christian. Lol

I think you need to speak with some conservative theologians. In my seminary and now in my theological school, the professors are driven by the need to preach the gospel. And just because you have no clue what a scholarly paper or book is, on any subject, doesn't make the method wrong. Footnotes can add a side discussion, or point to the exact page where the article/book author found the information.Scholars will research literally 100's of papers/books, and then see how it works with the Bible.

There was a point in theology where the Bible was not mentioned. I call that time the "dark ages." I have read the Bible over 50 times in many languages including the original languages. I read and study the Bible daily. But theology comes out of the Bible, and although it is not perfect, other scholars can then correct them.

Perhaps before you criticize, you ought to try and get through a few of those books? Or acknowledge you do not have the education and background to read theology. Well, except when you are actually reading the Bible, and studying God, which is what "theology" means as I have said over and over and over!

PS I am a wannabe theologian and I have an amazing testimony, which I share with anyone that is willing to listen. Try not to be so authoritarian about something you know nothing about - ignorance may be bliss, but it is not honest or mature.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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Garee I appreciate your commitment to take any question and run with it. I know your answer will always be unique, even if I don't always understand it. Not being nasty either.
I appricate not being thrown out with the Garee water.. many different perspectives in the rainbow.
 

Sipsey

Well-known member
Sep 27, 2018
1,481
695
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Yes believers are being addressed in that passage, but anyone and everyone can read what is written there. And it is perfectly in keeping with all Gospel truth that God COMMANDS all men to believe (just as He commands all men to repent).

Thus we have this passage which has the phrase "THE OBEDIENCE OF FAITH". Obedience corresponds to the commandment of the everlasting God.
Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my Gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith (Rom 16:25,26)
After much thought, I would like to re-address my response to you. I am often clumsy with words with expediency as an excuse. My summations are often clear to me, but vague or lost in print; for this I apologize.

What I was getting at is basically the “will” of God. His decrees, commands and commandments (Decalogue) are simply outward declarations of His bigger aim. To summarize the “will of God” is not easy, but His Will has been achieved up to this point in history and continues.

My initial point was clumsily framed by using the term “command,” and there are several words translated as such with contextual variations. I would have been better to use the term, “The determinate will of God” to more appropriately say what I really meant. In studying the issue since I have come across an article that I think better states my assertion that the commandments of GOD must be tempered with the will of God to see the reality of God’s intentions. I hope this clarifies my original assertions; this is from an article by: Philip H. Towner


God's Will and the Plan of Salvation.
Receiving special emphasis is the place of the plan of salvation within God's will. The adoption as children ( Eph 1:5) and inheritance of the blessings of redemption (v. 11) are according to God's counsel and will. The basis of salvation, the crucifixion of God's son Jesus, is explicitly described as the outworking of God's will ( Acts 2:23; 4:28; Gal 1:4). In this way, Jesus' death becomes integral to God's plan, rather than being an unforeseen event to be fit in whatever way possible. Furthermore, the redemptive will of God, which began long ago in the promises to Abraham, has proceeded without change through each stage of the plan ( Heb 6:17). Like Abraham, others played significant roles in the outworking of God's will to save ( Acts 13:36); at each point God's will was determinative and could not be circumvented ( Luke 7:30). Paul viewed his own call to apostleship, which was to bring salvation to the Gentiles ( Titus 1:1), in precisely these terms. Nearly all of his letters emphasize that it was God's will that established him in his ministry ( 1 Cor 1:1; 2 Cor 1:1; Eph 1:1; Col 1:1; 2 Tim 1:1; cf. Gal 1:1; 1 Tim 1:1; Titus 1:1).

Does the New Testament teach that it is God's will that all be saved, and therefore none will be lost? Two passages relate God's will to the expansiveness of the salvation plan. First Timothy 2:3-4 states, "God our Savior wills (thelei) all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth." Second Peter 3:9 expresses a similar sentiment: "The Lord does not will (boulomenos) anyone to perish but that everyone might come to repentance." It should be emphasized that neither text says that all will be saved regardless of their disposition toward the gospel. In the first text, "to come to a knowledge of the truth" is a formula that means to make a rational decision about the gospel, that is, to respond to the gospel message. The second text similarly relates God's will to save the all-inclusive "anyone" to the volitional element involved in repentance. Consequently, while these texts tell us that God's will to save extends to all people, and that he desires to save rather than to condemn, they do not remove the necessary element of the faith-response to the gospel.
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
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After much thought, I would like to re-address my response to you. I am often clumsy with words with expediency as an excuse. My summations are often clear to me, but vague or lost in print; for this I apologize.

What I was getting at is basically the “will” of God. His decrees, commands and commandments (Decalogue) are simply outward declarations of His bigger aim. To summarize the “will of God” is not easy, but His Will has been achieved up to this point in history and continues.

My initial point was clumsily framed by using the term “command,” and there are several words translated as such with contextual variations. I would have been better to use the term, “The determinate will of God” to more appropriately say what I really meant. In studying the issue since I have come across an article that I think better states my assertion that the commandments of GOD must be tempered with the will of God to see the reality of God’s intentions. I hope this clarifies my original assertions; this is from an article by: Philip H. Towner


God's Will and the Plan of Salvation.
Receiving special emphasis is the place of the plan of salvation within God's will. The adoption as children ( Eph 1:5) and inheritance of the blessings of redemption (v. 11) are according to God's counsel and will. The basis of salvation, the crucifixion of God's son Jesus, is explicitly described as the outworking of God's will ( Acts 2:23; 4:28; Gal 1:4). In this way, Jesus' death becomes integral to God's plan, rather than being an unforeseen event to be fit in whatever way possible. Furthermore, the redemptive will of God, which began long ago in the promises to Abraham, has proceeded without change through each stage of the plan ( Heb 6:17). Like Abraham, others played significant roles in the outworking of God's will to save ( Acts 13:36); at each point God's will was determinative and could not be circumvented ( Luke 7:30). Paul viewed his own call to apostleship, which was to bring salvation to the Gentiles ( Titus 1:1), in precisely these terms. Nearly all of his letters emphasize that it was God's will that established him in his ministry ( 1 Cor 1:1; 2 Cor 1:1; Eph 1:1; Col 1:1; 2 Tim 1:1; cf. Gal 1:1; 1 Tim 1:1; Titus 1:1).

Does the New Testament teach that it is God's will that all be saved, and therefore none will be lost? Two passages relate God's will to the expansiveness of the salvation plan. First Timothy 2:3-4 states, "God our Savior wills (thelei) all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth." Second Peter 3:9 expresses a similar sentiment: "The Lord does not will (boulomenos) anyone to perish but that everyone might come to repentance." It should be emphasized that neither text says that all will be saved regardless of their disposition toward the gospel. In the first text, "to come to a knowledge of the truth" is a formula that means to make a rational decision about the gospel, that is, to respond to the gospel message. The second text similarly relates God's will to save the all-inclusive "anyone" to the volitional element involved in repentance. Consequently, while these texts tell us that God's will to save extends to all people, and that he desires to save rather than to condemn, they do not remove the necessary element of the faith-response to the gospel.
Pilgrims progress settles most confusion over salvation.
It puts definition in our walk and foundation.
It is a marker in ones faith,so powerful that those that recieve the revelation kinda fell a kindred spirit amongst us.

At one time it was required reading at most bible colleges.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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The things that stick out for me are: The city of destruction and the bible making his lost spirit in even more conviction.

The evangelist

The burden

The cross and wicket gate

The interpreter

Vanity fair

The giant of despair.

The characters and their ever tireless pull to put him in another "way"

I refer to it and the ot stories many times during the day.
 

Sipsey

Well-known member
Sep 27, 2018
1,481
695
113
Pilgrims progress settles most confusion over salvation.
It puts definition in our walk and foundation.
It is a marker in ones faith,so powerful that those that recieve the revelation kinda fell a kindred spirit amongst us.

At one time it was required reading at most bible colleges.
It’s a wonderful book I read a few decades back. I have passed out several copies to friends. Sadly, our snippet prone society seems too preoccupied for reading much past 1/4” worth of pages.
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
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It’s a wonderful book I read a few decades back. I have passed out several copies to friends. Sadly, our snippet prone society seems too preoccupied for reading much past 1/4” worth of pages.
I often wonder why our leaders do not push its powerful influence.

I also wonder why black leaders do not push George Washington carver on the black culture.
Another book i will never forget.
 

Sipsey

Well-known member
Sep 27, 2018
1,481
695
113
I often wonder why our leaders do not push its powerful influence.

I also wonder why black leaders do not push George Washington carver on the black culture.
Another book i will never forget.
Not sure if many of our current spokesmen have enough humility to point to the truths spoken and lived by past generations. Many want to be front and center, and receive the applause, in their duty to save the world.
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
After much thought, I would like to re-address my response to you. I am often clumsy with words with expediency as an excuse. My summations are often clear to me, but vague or lost in print; for this I apologize.

What I was getting at is basically the “will” of God. His decrees, commands and commandments (Decalogue) are simply outward declarations of His bigger aim. To summarize the “will of God” is not easy, but His Will has been achieved up to this point in history and continues.

My initial point was clumsily framed by using the term “command,” and there are several words translated as such with contextual variations. I would have been better to use the term, “The determinate will of God” to more appropriately say what I really meant. In studying the issue since I have come across an article that I think better states my assertion that the commandments of GOD must be tempered with the will of God to see the reality of God’s intentions. I hope this clarifies my original assertions; this is from an article by: Philip H. Towner


God's Will and the Plan of Salvation.
Receiving special emphasis is the place of the plan of salvation within God's will. The adoption as children ( Eph 1:5) and inheritance of the blessings of redemption (v. 11) are according to God's counsel and will. The basis of salvation, the crucifixion of God's son Jesus, is explicitly described as the outworking of God's will ( Acts 2:23; 4:28; Gal 1:4). In this way, Jesus' death becomes integral to God's plan, rather than being an unforeseen event to be fit in whatever way possible. Furthermore, the redemptive will of God, which began long ago in the promises to Abraham, has proceeded without change through each stage of the plan ( Heb 6:17). Like Abraham, others played significant roles in the outworking of God's will to save ( Acts 13:36); at each point God's will was determinative and could not be circumvented ( Luke 7:30). Paul viewed his own call to apostleship, which was to bring salvation to the Gentiles ( Titus 1:1), in precisely these terms. Nearly all of his letters emphasize that it was God's will that established him in his ministry ( 1 Cor 1:1; 2 Cor 1:1; Eph 1:1; Col 1:1; 2 Tim 1:1; cf. Gal 1:1; 1 Tim 1:1; Titus 1:1).

Does the New Testament teach that it is God's will that all be saved, and therefore none will be lost? Two passages relate God's will to the expansiveness of the salvation plan. First Timothy 2:3-4 states, "God our Savior wills (thelei) all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth." Second Peter 3:9 expresses a similar sentiment: "The Lord does not will (boulomenos) anyone to perish but that everyone might come to repentance." It should be emphasized that neither text says that all will be saved regardless of their disposition toward the gospel. In the first text, "to come to a knowledge of the truth" is a formula that means to make a rational decision about the gospel, that is, to respond to the gospel message. The second text similarly relates God's will to save the all-inclusive "anyone" to the volitional element involved in repentance. Consequently, while these texts tell us that God's will to save extends to all people, and that he desires to save rather than to condemn, they do not remove the necessary element of the faith-response to the gospel.
I look at the phrase all will be saved as the all in as many the father gave the Son. We have no choice in entering salvation. To repent (comfort oneself)is a work of God he must first give us that desire. We are saved by the hearing of the faith of God and kept by the same work of His faith or labor of His love. He begins it and finishes it. Phil 1:6

In all case he must do the first work .Ultimately it is the work of God working in a individual to both will and do His good pleasure (Phil 2:12) .We should beleive without murmuring .And remember he is of one mind and always does whatsoever His soul pleases (Job 23) It is Christ in us he performs that appointed to us it is Him that can make our newly created hearts soft
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
23,460
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I think you need to speak with some conservative theologians. In my seminary and now in my theological school, the professors are driven by the need to preach the gospel. And just because you have no clue what a scholarly paper or book is, on any subject, doesn't make the method wrong. Footnotes can add a side discussion, or point to the exact page where the article/book author found the information.Scholars will research literally 100's of papers/books, and then see how it works with the Bible.

There was a point in theology where the Bible was not mentioned. I call that time the "dark ages." I have read the Bible over 50 times in many languages including the original languages. I read and study the Bible daily. But theology comes out of the Bible, and although it is not perfect, other scholars can then correct them.

Perhaps before you criticize, you ought to try and get through a few of those books? Or acknowledge you do not have the education and background to read theology. Well, except when you are actually reading the Bible, and studying God, which is what "theology" means as I have said over and over and over!

PS I am a wannabe theologian and I have an amazing testimony, which I share with anyone that is willing to listen. Try not to be so authoritarian about something you know nothing about - ignorance may be bliss, but it is not honest or mature.
Sorry i dont mean to be dismissive just that I recconginse theology is a very broad topic. Just saying mans interpetation of God may not square with the Bible.
As I said in my post I did go through some and tried reading a few. I actually do have a masters degree. In library studies. Ive worked in academia. I have looked after collections going back hundreds of years.

A lot of modern biblical scholarship actually undermines the Bible. Im just saying that for this church, theology books that are incomprehnesible arent any help to the congregattion. And yes ive binned and weeded out many. Some theology books stayed why because I did check them and the pastor checked them. Im not ignorant in that sense lol.

Ive worked in churches where the congregation would rather read The Shack. Of course i dont put that in the theology section. Its strictly fiction. But some churches we actually removed all the fiction. They can get it from the public library if they want it.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
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Sorry just want to reiterate the point, I didnt say i have no clue what a scholarly paper is. Cos I have written and studied them myself. Ive looked after theses and journals in huge serials collections at university. Of course i know what scholarship is. I do reconginse some of it actually is rubbish and misinformation! Thats the point.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
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Pilgrims Progress is a wonderfully profound christian allegory. I make sure I have it in every church library, even though is hundreds of years old.

John Bunyan wrote it in prison. He didnt have a book deal with a publisher or had to write it under duress to complete a degree. Its not quoting what other men think. Some People might complain its old fashioned, but these same people probably complain about the KJV.

The funny thing is that I found some purported christian classics to be dated, like CS lewis. He assidously removed any scripture from 'mere christianity' to make it just seem like you could boil down what christians believe to be intellectual argument that was entirely logical. Might work in oxford but oxford isnt the real world is it? Those in ivory towers still love it though.

But others are timeless like Foxes book of marytrs.

Hinds feet in high places was a kind of rip off of Pilgrims Progress, and it turned out the author had universalist ideas. This is the same with The Shack, which is why I would caution people on reading those. As for Left Behind novels. ?! Another dispensationalist rabbit trail.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
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If is rubbish and misinformation it is not scholarship.
I know but a lot of what gets published masquerades as scholarly. Just cos its published by IVP doesnt always mean its worthwhile.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
I know but a lot of what gets published masquerades as scholarly. Just cos its published by IVP doesnt always mean its worthwhile.
The quality has to do with the calibre of the journal.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,786
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Pilgrims Progress is a wonderfully profound christian allegory. I make sure I have it in every church library, even though is hundreds of years old.

John Bunyan wrote it in prison. He didnt have a book deal with a publisher or had to write it under duress to complete a degree. Its not quoting what other men think. Some People might complain its old fashioned, but these same people probably complain about the KJV.

The funny thing is that I found some purported christian classics to be dated, like CS lewis. He assidously removed any scripture from 'mere christianity' to make it just seem like you could boil down what christians believe to be intellectual argument that was entirely logical. Might work in oxford but oxford isnt the real world is it? Those in ivory towers still love it though.

But others are timeless like Foxes book of marytrs.

Hinds feet in high places was a kind of rip off of Pilgrims Progress, and it turned out the author had universalist ideas. This is the same with The Shack, which is why I would caution people on reading those. As for Left Behind novels. ?! Another dispensationalist rabbit trail.
Actually, I took a whole course in seminary on Pilgrim's Progress, and it was incredible.

But you know - rubbish and stuff. Must be, if I took it in seminary, right?

For someone with a Master's degree you don't seem that well educated! More narrow and judgmental. To each their own, I guess!
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
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Actually, I took a whole course in seminary on Pilgrim's Progress, and it was incredible.

But you know - rubbish and stuff. Must be, if I took it in seminary, right?

For someone with a Master's degree you don't seem that well educated! More narrow and judgmental. To each their own, I guess!
Thats ok thats a compleiment why im in this forum. Lol. You actually seem over educated and arrogant sometimes. Not something to be proud of really.

I read pilgrims progress, I didnt need to go to a seminary to read it. Its available and accesible to anyone.

It would also depend on which seminary was teaching it. If it was derived the Jesus seminar, which is all in earnest, but they completely seemed to miss the point! Also there is no Q manuscript, its just something they made up lol.

Im not knocking people going to seminary, but there is a reason why many people call seminary, cemetery. You need spiritual discernment, which is a gift that isnt necessarily obtained by scholarship.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
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Librarians actually need to be narrow minded and judgmental, it comes with the job.
If we dont take the narrow way, or make any judgements, your library would cease to be a working library and just a random collection of books all over the place. You would pick up anything in print and think its ok just cos it was in print. Thats the internet for ya.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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We all have access to the best teachers via the web.
The sky is the limit.
I believe all denominations have seminaries. Tons of false views scattered throughout.

Knowing the bible cover to cover should be advantageous,not a diploma.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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Are theologians a gift from God to the church? Are theologians listed in the bible? Are they in Ephesians 4:11? Are college professors who teach theology to be classified as theologians?

The essence of the gospel is easy enough to be understood by a child.

Advanced study of the bible and history of biblical times is a great thing. Thank God for those who have the patience to study such matters and do it well for the glory of God. Thank God for those who study the original languages in which the bible was written. There is much to be learned from language and culture of the apostolic period and the much older Jewish era.

For the cause of Christ
Roger