Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?

[SimpleGardner]

Regarding Angry people I think it is important to remember:

Pro 19:19 KJV A man of great wrath shall suffer punishment: for if thou deliver him, yet thou must do it again.

Jas 1:20 KJV For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.

There's "Human" anger and "Righteous Indignation". Sadly there is a bit too much of the first at work.

 

[SimpleGardner]

You just publically accused me hypocrite......you gonna repent for that?

Yo know Dc, we all have so many other issues in life where we live and you want to take this one on you! I didn't call you out, and yeah I didn't exclude you either, just like I didn't exclude anyone.

You are a scrappy sort of guy and I like scrappy people, but try not to be so angry like I hate you or something...I don't!

I'm the guy that would have your back against evil! Not the evil guy that's after your back!

I've said it before, this faceless type of forum works against us. Do I still have gripes with you? Yep! And maybe we can work it out, we should work it out.

But that doesn't change anything, because if you serve God and Love Jesus! We are brothers first. Take the branch.

 

[posthuman]

will enjoy being able to obey His laws without persecution

huh?

love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control, ​

against such things there is no law. ​

(Galatians 5:22-23)​

 

[dcontroversal]

Yo know Dc, we all have so many other issues in life where we live and you want to take this one on you! I didn't call you out, and yeah I didn't exclude you either, just like I didn't exclude anyone.

You are a scrappy sort of guy and I like scrappy people, but try not to be so angry like I hate you or something...I don't!

I'm the guy that would have your back against evil! Not the evil guy that's after your back!

I've said it before, this faceless type of forum works against us. Do I still have gripes with you? Yep! And maybe we can work it out, we should work it out.

But that doesn't change anything, because if you serve God and Love Jesus! We are brothers first. Take the branch.

Fair enough...peace it is

 

[posthuman]

I don't think for one NY minute that I can earn my salvation. I've said that to you many times, but you will not hear me.

pretty sure you're confusing me with someone else.
i don't go about accusing people; i go about asking questions and trying to correct things that stray from the truth.
whenever we accuse, we are guilty of the very same things. ((Romans 2:1))

ex. -- do you think in your heart that i delight in doing evil, just because i often quote the scriptures that say, 'you are not under law' -- when i tell you i do not, will you yourself hear it?


i listen to a lot of sermons by a lot of preachers -- and not just those i agree with. there is a very twisted idea among the church, that i hear broadcast from lots of pulpits, and is pervasive here on CC too, that believing in the work of God = licentiousness - God Who has condemned sin once and for all in us, and has by His blood washed us, Who through our crucifixion with Him we have been released from the Law, because the Law has no power or jurisdiction over those who have died. Romans 6, 7, 8.
it is preached all over that anyone who says 'we are not under law but grace' is necessarily preaching 'lets sin sin sin sin'
this is stupid. it is exactly the same false accusation leveled against Paul: Romans 3:8

i think these preachers just can't comprehend any other motivation to do right other than being terrified of damnation.
i think these people do not have a clue that love, joy and thanksgiving can impel a person to do what is right.
i think these people know no other reason to keep themselves from sin than to, effectively, establish a righteousness of their own through keeping a law of works.
i think these preachers do not understand the gospel.

K, i think you have sat under such teachers. i want you to know and to understand the truth which sets us free. that's all. it is not true that the redeemed of our Lord are under the Law. it is true that we are under this commandment: love one another as Christ has loved us. it is true that whoever loves has fulfilled the whole Law. there is no law against love.

 

[posthuman]

Your words "boy doncha get tired" where you are confusing me for someone else. There is a difference which I think you will see if you pause and consider that I agree with you! I can't keep going over this if you don't want to hear what I am saying. We must look like two football players on the same team trying to tackle one another!

o no, i do mean you. i think you misread my intent.
don't you get tired of having to swat down the same strawman all the time?
because, i think we agree

 

[posthuman]

Let's get through Romans first.

good idea.
should only take about a thousand lifetimes, let's start!

butcha an't 'isolate' Romans from the rest of scripture. that's not how the Bible works. it is incredibly interconnected.

look, right here:

. . the gospel He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy scriptures regarding His Son ​

(Romans 1:2-3) ​

immediately we need to understand Genesis through Malachi in order to understand the 2nd verse of Romans.
we're going to be in Genesis 3 for about 40 years, just to get through the first couple chapters of Romans.

 

[SimpleGardner]

Fair enough...peace it is

Great!

BTW Saw a pic of your place from what looks like a view from a bedroom window! Now that looks peaceful!

 

[SimpleGardner]

pretty sure you're confusing me with someone else.
i don't go about accusing people; i go about asking questions and trying to correct things that stray from the truth.
whenever we accuse, we are guilty of the very same things. ((Romans 2:1))

ex. -- do you think in your heart that i delight in doing evil, just because i often quote the scriptures that say, 'you are not under law' -- when i tell you i do not, will you yourself hear it?


i listen to a lot of sermons by a lot of preachers -- and not just those i agree with. there is a very twisted idea among the church, that i hear broadcast from lots of pulpits, and is pervasive here on CC too, that believing in the work of God = licentiousness - God Who has condemned sin once and for all in us, and has by His blood washed us, Who through our crucifixion with Him we have been released from the Law, because the Law has no power or jurisdiction over those who have died. Romans 6, 7, 8.
it is preached all over that anyone who says 'we are not under law but grace' is necessarily preaching 'lets sin sin sin sin'
this is stupid. it is exactly the same false accusation leveled against Paul: Romans 3:8

i think these preachers just can't comprehend any other motivation to do right other than being terrified of damnation.
i think these people do not have a clue that love, joy and thanksgiving can impel a person to do what is right.
i think these people know no other reason to keep themselves from sin than to, effectively, establish a righteousness of their own through keeping a law of works.
i think these preachers do not understand the gospel.

K, i think you have sat under such teachers. i want you to know and to understand the truth which sets us free. that's all. it is not true that the redeemed of our Lord are under the Law. it is true that we are under this commandment: love one another as Christ has loved us. it is true that whoever loves has fulfilled the whole Law. there is no law against love.

I know this is between you and K, but I know many people who live lives of licent--- sin because they say that God loves them even in their sin, so "what's the big deal" i hear "If Jesus doesn't condemn me what should I fear!" , so they say I sin and have no fear of changing that. You might think I'm exagerating, but this is exactly what more and more people are beginning to buy as the gospel. I fear that this is what comes of too much focus on Grace and not enough on following the Holy Spirits lead to become "Like Jesus" who loved righteousness. So, when I find people who literally think sin is inconsequential, willful or not, i see the need for self discipline. Does that offend your take on Grace and Discipleship?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I know this is between you and K, but I know many people who live lives of licent--- sin because they say that God loves them even in their sin, so "what's the big deal" i hear "If Jesus doesn't condemn me what should I fear!" , so they say I sin and have no fear of changing that. You might think I'm exagerating, but this is exactly what more and more people are beginning to buy as the gospel. I fear that this is what comes of too much focus on Grace and not enough on following the Holy Spirits lead to become "Like Jesus" who loved righteousness. So, when I find people who literally think sin is inconsequential, willful or not, i see the need for self discipline. Does that offend your take on Grace and Discipleship?

And you think they have been saved by what evidence?

Again, We are talking about people in CC.. Show us one person who thinks thats ok? Since the accusers call them out all the time.

 

[posthuman]

So again...
But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
(Rom 10:6-9 KJV)

In each instance that "that is" is used prior. What precedes it is connected to what is after it.

Please follow along in the first instance. "that is, to bring Christ down from above"

Here is the second instance. "that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead"

And lastly; "that is, the word of faith, which we preach"

What is the Faith in which we Preach? Christ through which the word, the Law, God's Commandments are in the heart, mind and mouth that is the Faith in which we preach.

your conclusion that Christ = the Law is invalid.

the first 'that is' refers to 'don't say in your heart, who will ascend'
the second 'that is' refers to 'don't say in your heart, who will descend'

these two are a set of complimentary ideas:
do not have in your heart this whole 'who is going to ascend and who is going to descend?' business.
it is the same as Romans 2:1 -- you who accuse, aintcha guilty of exactly the same things?

the opening context of this passage in Romans 10 is that the people who use the Law to establish their own righteousness are wrong -- and they say in their heart, who will ascend? and think to measure it by a righteousness of works. by law. and they say in their heart, who will descend? and think to measure it by works. they accuse, and they commend themselves, all according to the righteousness they think to establish for themselves - with an evil heart full of vanity and a pitiless scorn against those who, according to their self-established righteousness, they see as beneath themselves.
they say, we, by this righteousness we establish by our works, will ascend. we will be as Christ.
they say, we, in our self-established righteousness, will descend to those beneath us and make disciples for ourselves. we will be as Christ.

the word says, do not say such things in your heart.
what word? the word that is a righteousness not of ourselves, but ascribed by God on the basis of belief. a righteousness that is not by works, but by grace through faith.


the law is not of faith.
the law says 'do this, and don't do that, and you will live'
that is not what faith says. Romans 10:5. Galatians 3:12.

if you think faith = 'do this law and by it you will have life' then you have not received the gospel. that is exactly the opposite of the word preached to us here in Romans 10.

 

[SimpleGardner]

And you think they have been saved by what evidence?

Again, We are talking about people in CC.. Show us one person who thinks thats ok? Since the accusers call them out all the time.

Chill EG,

Who I was thinking about on this one was a realtor that showed me a property who I brought up the Gospel of Grace and redemption to who went off on how great the grace of God is...which I agreed, but went on the espouse the beauty of not having to worry about living a sinful life, being able to do whatever she wanted, because she was not "under condemnation"

I was taken back and had to ask myself; "can anyone be "in Christ" and think like that!?" Like the prosperity doctrine (which i oppose) it has an infectious type of effect.

You thought I was accusing someone here, no. wouldn't it sound silliy if I went on with is and said; I'm accusing you of accusing me of accusing someone else. Yikes! Sounds crazy huh? Deep Breath!

 

[posthuman]

I know this is between you and K, but I know many people who live lives of licent--- sin because they say that God loves them even in their sin, so "what's the big deal" i hear "If Jesus doesn't condemn me what should I fear!" , so they say I sin and have no fear of changing that. You might think I'm exagerating, but this is exactly what more and more people are beginning to buy as the gospel. I fear that this is what comes of too much focus on Grace and not enough on following the Holy Spirits lead to become "Like Jesus" who loved righteousness. So, when I find people who literally think sin is inconsequential, willful or not, i see the need for self discipline. Does that offend your take on Grace and Discipleship?

it's not just between me and K. there's a whole battalion of people being taught, and repeating the teaching themselves, that the believer must keep the law in order to be saved.
there are ditches on both sides of the road: you can veer over to one side and find no offense in sin at all, and even glory in it ((e.g. 1 Cor. 5:2)). or you can over-correct the bus and say salvation is through submission to the Law ((e.g. basically all of Galatians))

the people who have no compulsion to do what is right in their lives abuse the grace of God and frustrate the Spirit, if they even have the Spirit, because the Spirit leads us in righteousness, and the life we receive is knowledge of God, and in God there is no sin at all -- so they walk outside of Him, not abiding in Him.
the people who preach Law pervert the Law, thinking to separate it into 'chunks' and ignore parts of it while demanding obedience to other chunks, just like pharisees, puffing themselves up for tithing mint & cumin while their hearts are full of vanity and murder. and they have seemingly no comprehension of what Jesus Christ did by laying down His life and lifting Himself up on a cross just like the serpent in the wilderness, nor do they seem to care - but to despise it.

but God works very patiently, and He will convince His own of the truth, and find every sheep that is lost, put it on His shoulder, and carry it home rejoicing. we only see snapshots of people's lives and thoughts here, and we don't know how our longsuffering God is working in each -- because this Christ, our Lord, is the One who lifts out of the ditch, carries to the inn, heals, tends to wounds, clothes and pays for the lodging and food of the one He finds robbed & beaten and stripped on the side of the road.
let the tares grow with the wheat, says the Stumbling Stone -- we are incapable of discerning between and not deft enough to remove one without disturbing the other. He will send His angels when the harvest is ready, and He gives the increase. our job is to plant & to water the garden (()) and to drive away the birds

 

[SimpleGardner]

it's not just between me and K. there's a whole battalion of people being taught, and repeating the teaching themselves, that the believer must keep the law in order to be saved.
there are ditches on both sides of the road: you can veer over to one side and find no offense in sin at all, and even glory in it ((e.g. 1 Cor. 5:2)). or you can over-correct the bus and say salvation is through submission to the Law ((e.g. basically all of Galatians))

the people who have no compulsion to do what is right in their lives abuse the grace of God and frustrate the Spirit, if they even have the Spirit, because the Spirit leads us in righteousness, and the life we receive is knowledge of God, and in God there is no sin at all -- so they walk outside of Him, not abiding in Him.
the people who preach Law pervert the Law, thinking to separate it into 'chunks' and ignore parts of it while demanding obedience to other chunks, just like pharisees, puffing themselves up for tithing mint & cumin while their hearts are full of vanity and murder. and they have seemingly no comprehension of what Jesus Christ did by laying down His life and lifting Himself up on a cross just like the serpent in the wilderness, nor do they seem to care - but to despise it.

but God works very patiently, and He will convince His own of the truth, and find every sheep that is lost, put it on His shoulder, and carry it home rejoicing. we only see snapshots of people's lives and thoughts here, and we don't know how our longsuffering God is working in each -- because this Christ, our Lord, is the One who lifts out of the ditch, carries to the inn, heals, tends to wounds, clothes and pays for the lodging and food of the one He finds robbed & beaten and stripped on the side of the road.
let the tares grow with the wheat, says the Stumbling Stone -- we are incapable of discerning between and not deft enough to remove one without disturbing the other. He will send His angels when the harvest is ready, and He gives the increase. our job is to plant & to water the garden (()) and to drive away the birds

VERY well said! I would tend to rebuke someone in my life circle who engaged in sin recklessly and encouraged others to do so. As far as condemning them, No way! Even the thought of doing that embarrasses me.

Loved the analogy to the ditches on either side of the road!

The "if they even have the Spirit" is a BIG, BIG issue that we must all be aware of. Having conversations on spiritual matters with carnal people will never produce results unless it is one focused on directing a soul towards salvation and the anointing. I would like to hear your views on this matter.

As far as the parable of the wheat and the tares, wellllll, that's another issue altogether, but I get your point.

 

[posthuman]

So, when I find people who literally think sin is inconsequential, willful or not, i see the need for self discipline. Does that offend your take on Grace and Discipleship?

amen

hit and run, guerrilla evangelism makes weak Christians. we all need discipleship, and i think we need to understand that discipleship takes time -- people go through stages and develop understanding as they become conformed to the image of Christ. it can take decades before you start seeing fruit. have you ever heard of a century plant? it's called that because they say it can live 100 years before it blooms ((though iirc they actually only live like 30 yr on average. smh people are so bad at counting lol)) -- if God made such plants, what if He also makes such people? and we know them for 40 years, and they don't bear fruit until 20 more years after that? so if we made ourselves their judge - judging by appearance - we'd give a wrong judgement, because of our ignorance.
point being -- yes, i agree - to disciple someone may take a looong time. it's has to be done, the same way you don't just plant a tomato and then ignore it. not if you want to get fruit from it! it'll need water, and it'll need it's branches picked up off the ground, etc.

but i think, the right way to teach doing good is to contrast wisdom and foolishness, not to instill fear and terror of the condemnation of law -- because that is simply not the word of faith we received, but a perversion of it. do you see how impatience can lead a person to this error in theology? suppose you had a century plant, and you saw no flower on it, year after year. what if you said, you are not a good plant unless you bloom this year! and impose a law on that plant?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Chill EG,

Who I was thinking about on this one was a realtor that showed me a property who I brought up the Gospel of Grace and redemption to who went off on how great the grace of God is...which I agreed, but went on the espouse the beauty of not having to worry about living a sinful life, being able to do whatever she wanted, because she was not "under condemnation"

I was taken back and had to ask myself; "can anyone be "in Christ" and think like that!?" Like the prosperity doctrine (which i oppose) it has an infectious type of effect.

You thought I was accusing someone here, no. wouldn't it sound silliy if I went on with is and said; I'm accusing you of accusing me of accusing someone else. Yikes! Sounds crazy huh? Deep Breath!

Lol

We are arguing about people IN CC who teach a licentious gospel. As to which I and a few others have stated there are non, and were called liars.

Maybe pay attention to what we are discussing?

 

[SimpleGardner]

amen

hit and run, guerrilla evangelism makes weak Christians. we all need discipleship, and i think we need to understand that discipleship takes time -- people go through stages and develop understanding as they become conformed to the image of Christ. it can take decades before you start seeing fruit. have you ever heard of a century plant? it's called that because they say it can live 100 years before it blooms ((though iirc they actually only live like 30 yr on average. smh people are so bad at counting lol)) -- if God made such plants, what if He also makes such people? and we know them for 40 years, and they don't bear fruit until 20 more years after that? so if we made ourselves their judge - judging by appearance - we'd give a wrong judgement, because of our ignorance.
point being -- yes, i agree - to disciple someone may take a looong time. it's has to be done, the same way you don't just plant a tomato and then ignore it. not if you want to get fruit from it! it'll need water, and it'll need it's branches picked up off the ground, etc.

but i think, the right way to teach doing good is to contrast wisdom and foolishness, not to instill fear and terror of the condemnation of law -- because that is simply not the word of faith we received, but a perversion of it. do you see how impatience can lead a person to this error in theology? suppose you had a century plant, and you saw no flower on it, year after year. what if you said, you are not a good plant unless you bloom this year! and impose a law on that plant?

Amen back atcha!

I disagree completely with condemnation of the Law. Romans 8:1 Conviction by the Holy Spirit? Yes! And does the Holy Spirit, knowing the Love He has put in our heart for righteousness, point to the law to label the convictions He is trying to guide us past? Yes! So, while the Law no longer condemns us, it can convict us!

When I share my sincere love for the Laws of God, what I am saying is WOW!, Look at what God did to my heart!! GRACE!! When i testify Gods act within me of taking a heart of stone and making it supple and desirous of righteousness! This is honoring God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit through testimony! There is no need for anyone to descend upon this, but many on here do. There are some who have said "The Law is useless"! Now, I'm not so hard as to think they hate the Law or find no use in the Law, but their overreaction and overemphacizing the point that salvation is not by works of the Law stirs the debate to a fever pitch!

To use your analogy of keeping it between the ditches, which again I appreciate cuz I can see it better! Anyway, I see two people grabbing the wheel of the vehicle, one wanting to hammer the point about grace and the other wanting to hammer the point on the regenerative work of the Holy Spirit to righteousness and this vehicle is swerving in and out of the ditches on either side of the road!

Lived in TX and AZ so yeah, I know of the century plants. I do understand how some are slow to bear fruit. I have a vinyard, Orchard, Nut grove etc...many fruiting lessons there. Reminds me of the one;

Luk 13:6-9 KJV He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none. (7) Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground? (8) And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it: (9) And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

 

[Grandpa]

LETS say Moses law was A double decker english bus. Lets say Jesus law was a prius. What words would I have to use to tell you I don't drive double decker English bus, I only drive a prius? These are the words I can not find for you. No matter how many times or how many ways I tell you I do not, I have not , I can not drive a double decker English bus you wont believe me. Not only wont you believe me, you also keep calling me a BAD DRIVER of a double decker English bus which I can't be because I drive a prius. ANY THING? ANYTHING AT ALL?

Let's say ALL legalists "say" that they don't keep the law for salvation because that is impossible.

Let's say ALL legalists "say" they don't keep the law for righteousness because that is also impossible.

Let's say ALL legalists "say" they aren't trying to be justified by the law.


And yet all these people seem to talk about is law, explaining why everyone has to obey it and work at it. How a person is lawless if they aren't working at it and cannot be godly if they aren't under it. They must all be sinning non-stop if they aren't working at the law.

And then after all that they actually act exasperated with the people who disagree with them. Thinking that those who aren't working at the law don't understand what they say...

 

[Grandpa]

Matthew 11:28-30
28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

This is a fantastic promise. Taking Jesus's yoke is learning His ways and walking them, day in day out.
And in this we find rest for our souls and peace everlasting.

What is odd, and I mean odd, to take Jesus's teaching and say we can just live a life of slough, doing nothing
and this is what He intended and called us to, when in fact He called us to obey and to love and to follow.

So unless you cannot read, the words of Jesus will condemn those who claim to rest in Jesus and do nothing.
The problem with the language here is to obey Jesus is called being a judaizers or legalist.

If you think Jesus cared for those who rebelled against His word, you missed the part when He said unless you
drink His blood and eat His flesh you cannot be His disciple. Jesus never compromises. In the flesh it would be
easy to just agree, anything goes, but Jesus is actually the opposite, the small gate and the narrow path.

Praise the Lord if you have faith to believe Him, you will find the gate and walk the path, and it will be a blessing
Amen.

Who actually does nothing?

Is doing nothing even a possibility?

I'll let you in on a little secret. Only those who Rest in Christ ever even glimpse what obedience, love and following Him are all about.

If you still think it is YOUR work that is required you will never glimpse these things.

 

[SimpleGardner]

Lol

We are arguing about people IN CC who teach a licentious gospel. As to which I and a few others have stated there are non, and were called liars.

Maybe pay attention to what we are discussing?

Okay,

Posthuman made a great point;

"there are ditches on both sides of the road: you can veer over to one side and find no offense in sin at all, and even glory in it ((e.g. 1 Cor. 5:2)). or you can over-correct the bus and say salvation is through submission to the Law ((e.g. basically all of Galatians))

the people who have no compulsion to do what is right in their lives abuse the grace of God and frustrate the Spirit, if they even have the Spirit, because the Spirit leads us in righteousness, and the life we receive is knowledge of God, and in God there is no sin at all -- so they walk outside of Him, not abiding in Him. "

I read posts from people on here that all believe the SAME THING but are at a place where one wishes to emphasize the importance of recognizing Grace and the other one wishes to emphasize the importance of The Holy Spirits work on leading us to righteousness! So ,there many of us are on the same road with the same understanding OVERREACTING to one another emphasis!

So, I'm in the boat fishing with my buddy who won't shut up about how important it is to chose the right bait! Which one is better after it has rained and which one is better on sunny days, which one is better on cloudy days, which one is better in the Spring, then the Summer, then the Fall! Then with a cocky grin he casts his scientifically baited hook la dee da! to the other side of the river and his hook, swivel & sinker comes off his line! Big Grin, I asked if good knots are important too?! It's all important! Especially the beers! Hey were fishin here!

Are there some who say Grace Unmerited Justification has nothing to do with salvation? Yep, They are wrong!

Are there some who say That through Grace we can live a life of licentiousness with no need to follow the Holy Spirits guiding us into righteousness? Yep! They are wrong!