Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

[FollowHisSteps]

Sorry didn't see it or maybe overlooked it as I was looking for the attack.

We are cleansed and are righteous as a result of Jesus.
Therefore we walk in that as temples of the Holy Spirit.
That's our calling.
Does our own righteous save us.
I would say no.
If it did then why would Jesus have to die?

Hi Bill,

Our walk has never saved us, it is our salvation or fellowship with Jesus.
It takes time for people to truly make contact and know one anothers hearts.

I wonder when Jesus said our fruit would grow in Him, if he meant the words we
have to describe what we are and how we dwell in Him, because things open up
more each day.

Some have emotional blocks to love and people getting close, it is like a defence
and talking about our walk is sadness and painful. When this occurs it is flight or
fight. I can see those who wish to fight. Until fear stops dominating, the Lord can
do very little.

God bless you

 

[Nat2019]

Titus 3:5 New International Version (NIV)
5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

 

[Nat2019]

Titus 3:1-5 New International Version (NIV)

Saved in Order to Do Good


3 Remind the people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready to do whatever is good, 2 to slander no one, to be peaceable and considerate, and always to be gentle toward everyone.

3 At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

 

[FollowHisSteps]

Sad fact is bro that our enemies are those who are fellow brothers/sisters in Jesus.
Believers are very good at taking a hammer to each other rather than build each other up.
Shooting the wounded and it does my head in.

Unfortunately I have lived a quiet life. And my burdens have been light.
So this tumult is baggage that breaks my heart. I would dearly like to know how to help.
I think all we can do is share and be there taking the blows, and loving despite it all.

In my house group and church I was not good enough to be a deacon, because I talked to
an unapproved of individual. This was years ago 10+. I have just loved through it and seen
people change soften and open up. So many hurts, so many betrayals, so much fear.

But giving a bit, every now and then changes worlds. People light up. 1 hour here, 1 hour
there. One gift of love given unexpectedly, one encouragement to grow in Christ.
So I know in Christ He brings it to victory on the path of the cross. God bless you

 

[dcontroversal]

The context of james is those who CLAI to have faith, they are in james words. Hearers of the word only and not doers. People who do the things you showed are hearers only and not doers. They go to church, but they have NO WORKS.

Once again.

Can you tell us the NUMBER of works james meant when he said HAS NO WORKS?

Also. Can you tell me whay James said CLAIMS to have faith. And did not say they EVER HAD faith?

I cannot stress enough that JAMES is speaking to a mere belief in GOD which the JEWS have to this very day......it is qualified by the statement concerning the demons/devils believe and tremble about it......the JEWS believe in GOD, but they DO NOT have SAVING FAITH and there is a difference.....they had the seem issue during the 1st century...they claimed GOD and even POINTED to ABRAHAM as their father.....JESUS said, "IF ABRAHAM were your father YOU would BELIEVE ME" ..........that is the issue.......a mere belief in GOD, but NO saving FAITH........

The world is full of people that BELIEVE in GOD or A GOD.......but they DO NOT believe in JESUS................that is the core of the issue IMV

REGARDLESS.....the contrast and NOT CONTRADICTION is seen in the words of PAUL and JAMES

PAUL...BEFORE GOD....FAITH is what JUSTIFIES a MAN
JAMES...BEFORE MEN...THE ABOVE FAITH that justifies before GOD is SEEN by works

THIS is no way, shape or form means that works are required to GAIN or KEEP salvation as evidenced by the Corinthian brother, 1st Corinthians 3, Prodigal, and others.......

 

[dcontroversal]

1 john 3: 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

When are you going to realise. Whoever practices sin has never seen God or known him. And that those truly saved can not practice sin?

So your preaching against unbelievers, not believers.

AMEN...as a way of life is indicated.........and for believers.....if we say that we have no sin we are deceived and the truth is not in us.......

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Titus 3:5 New International Version (NIV)
5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

Yes

Thank you for proving my point,

We are not saved because of any righteous acts we perform (acts of obedience) but by Gods mercy

One who needs mercy is guilty

 

[Nat2019]

JUSTIFICATION scriptures, there are probably more. But here are some of them.

*****Justified by faith

Romans 5:1
Therefore, since we have been (justified by faith), we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
(James 2:26 New International Version (NIV)
26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead).

****Justified by his grace

Titus 3:7
So that (being justified) by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

*******you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 New International Version (NIV)
9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[a] 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

***Christs sacrifice for our Justification

Romans 4:25
Who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.

****Justified by his blood

Romans 5:9
Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God

****For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified..


Romans 10 New International Version (NIV)
10 Brothers and sisters, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. 2 For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. 3 (Since they did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own), they did not submit to God’s righteousness. 4 Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

5 Moses writes this about the righteousness that is by the law: “The person who does these things will live by them.”[a] 6 But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 “or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’”[c] (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,”[d] that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 (If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 (For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified), and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”[e] 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”[f]

14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”[g]

16 But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?”[h] 17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ. 18 But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did:

“Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.”

19 Again I ask: Did Israel not understand? First, Moses says,

“I will make you envious by those who are not a nation;
I will make you angry by a nation that has no understanding.”[j]

20 And Isaiah boldly says,

“I was found by those who did not seek me;
I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me.”[k]

21 But concerning Israel he says,

“All day long I have held out my hands
to a disobedient and obstinate people.”

 

[dcontroversal]

Gotta love those that CONFLATE contexts and scripture to prove invalid points........bad day coming for those that do this.......

 

[eternally-gratefull]

JUSTIFICATION scriptures, there are probably more. But here are some of them.

*****Justified by faith

Romans 5:1
Therefore, since we have been (justified by faith), we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
(James 2:26 New International Version (NIV)
26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead).

****Justified by his grace

Titus 3:7
So that (being justified) by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

*******you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 New International Version (NIV)
9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[a] 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

***Christs sacrifice for our Justification

Romans 4:25
Who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.

****Justified by his blood

Romans 5:9
Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God

****For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified..


Romans 10 New International Version (NIV)
10 Brothers and sisters, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. 2 For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. 3 (Since they did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own), they did not submit to God’s righteousness. 4 Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

5 Moses writes this about the righteousness that is by the law: “The person who does these things will live by them.”[a] 6 But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 “or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’”[c] (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,”[d] that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 (If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 (For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified), and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”[e] 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”[f]

14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”[g]

16 But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?”[h] 17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ. 18 But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did:

“Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.”

19 Again I ask: Did Israel not understand? First, Moses says,

“I will make you envious by those who are not a nation;
I will make you angry by a nation that has no understanding.”[j]

20 And Isaiah boldly says,

“I was found by those who did not seek me;
I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me.”[k]

21 But concerning Israel he says,

“All day long I have held out my hands
to a disobedient and obstinate people.”

Yep

Once again, Thank you for proving OSAS. And justification by faith. NOT by our obedience.

 

[Nat2019]

not because of works done by us in righteousness.

This is not referring to good works of God through faith. Because good works connected to faith are needed for salvation. A COMPLETE faith is needed for salvation.

Works with faith are different to works done by them in righteousness.

You would like to say this scripture refers to Good works for God through faith.

OSAS believers change ( works done In righteousness) to (works done for God through faith).

So you can believe God is ok with your disobedience.

 

[dcontroversal]

The following is a comparison between the bible and salvation losers......and make no mistake...this is exactly what they peddle and or how they butcher the word of God by their losable salvation....

Bible -->I will never leave thee or forsake thee
Salvation Losers ---->Jesus is a liar and will leave us and forsake us

Bible --->We are saved to the uttermost and kept by the power of God through faith
Salvation losers --->The power of God is weak and inept, we are not saved to the uttermost and GOD does not keep us

Bible -->Jesus begins, finishes and completes the work of faith in us
Salvation losers --->WE must maintain our faith because JESUS does not finish and complete the work of faith in us

Bible -->He that believes on the SON is having everlasting/eternal life
Salvation losers --->He that believes and MAINTAINS his belief on the SON is having temporal life based upon what he does or does not do

Bible -->Therefore we conclude a man is justified by faith without the deeds/works of the law
Salvation losers -->James out of context tells us we are justified by our works before God

Bible -->It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe
Salvation losers --->It pleased God by works, church membership, baptism, pew jumping, speaking in tongues, back flipping down the isle, saying 57 hail Mary's, taking the Lord's supper, keeping the sacraments and a dozen other religiously zealous man made efforts to save them

Bible -->NOTHING can separate us from the love of GOD
Salvation losers -->Numerous things can separate us from the love of GOD

Bible--->We are in the Son's hand, the Father's hand and NO AN can remove us from that position
Salvation losers -->The above is false, we can remove ourselves because God is weak and inept

Bible -->We are sealed unto the day of redemption
Salvation losers-->The seal of God can be broken because God is weak and inept

Bible --->Where sin abounds, grace abounds the more
Salvation losers--> We qualify, quantify sin and God's grace only covers those small sins when we mess up and for sure we have never lost it, but eternal security believers lose it because they believe they can live any way they want and live like the devil

Bible --->He that believes on the Son is not condemned
Salvation losers --> Believers are condemned all the time and returned to being goats after becoming sheep

Bible --> I will lose nothing, but raise it up the last day
Salvation losers -->God loses people all the time because he is too weak to keep them saved

Bible--> We are born again from above by INCORRUPTIBLE SEED
Salvation losers --> We are not born of incorruptible seed, because that seed can be corrupted and one die lost after being born again

Bible --> The gifts and calling of God are irrevocable
Salvation losers -->God's free GIFT of salvation can be revoked because GOD will break ALL the above promises and send one to hell after being saved

ETC.............I dare to say that salvation losers are false.....and what they peddle is not of GOD and as blasphemous as it comes......the above is a SMALL sample of scriptural promises that MUST BE DENIED, REJECTED and or SWEPT UNDER THE TABLE to peddle a dime store salvation that cannot be found in the bible and or a dime store salvation that devalues the work, promises and ministry of CHRIST!!!!!!!

 

[Nat2019]

My scriptures dont prove OSAS but they show Justification.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

My scriptures dont prove OSAS but they show Justification.

Yes they do

If we are justified by faith not works

Then OSAS stands

If we are NOT justified by faith bot works
Then OSAS fails. Ie we have to EARN salvation.

 

[Jackson123]

not because of works done by us in righteousness.

This is not referring to good works of God through faith. Because good works connected to faith are needed for salvation. A COMPLETE faith is needed for salvation.

Works with faith are different to works done by them in righteousness.

You would like to say this scripture refers to Good works for God through faith.

OSAS believers change ( works done In righteousness) to (works done for God through faith).

So you can believe God is ok with your disobedience.

What is the different between work done in righteousness and work done for god through faith, can you give example?

Matt 7

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Seem to me people in verse 22 have faith that they are save, save by faith but Jesus say no

In the church I always hear the teaching if you believe by faith you are save than you are save

People in verse 22 believe they are save but it is not

 

[dcontroversal]

Yes they do

If we are justified by faith not works

Then OSAS stands

If we are NOT justified by faith bot works
Then OSAS fails. Ie we have to EARN salvation.

Justified freely by grace Paul said.......and by the faith of Christ <---Galatians 2........PAST tense, rendered INNOCENT......legal term......because Christ TOOK ALL of our sin to the cross and his righteousness is IMPUTED to us......Romans 4......!!

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Did David the servant of God also have this hope but still planned for months to kill a man and have the man's wife?
Was that David's choice or was God doing it in him?

You mean David that was under law that said blessed are those who do not have their sins Imputed to them?
Yes It was his choice but What does that have to do with Grace through faith?
The law was given to Moses but grace And Truth came by JESUS.

 

[dcontroversal]

You mean David that was under law that said blessed are those who do not have their sins Imputed to them?
Yes It was his choice but What does that have to do with Grace through faith?
The law was given to Moses but grace And Truth came by JESUS.

Noose said:
Did David the servant of God also have this hope but still planned for months to kill a man and have the man's wife?
Was that David's choice or was God doing it in him?


The same David that should have died under the LAW....yet was SPARED, preemptively forgiven by God, had his 1st BORN INNOCENT son PAY the price (picture of JESUS as the SON of DAVID) and then he paid the price openly by shame, sword in his house, loss of children, and sickness in his old age as evidenced by the Psalms <----ALL called CHASTISEMENT for a child of GOD that commits horrific sins....YET his salvation REMAINED secure!!

 

[Jackson123]

Salvation happen when we believe in Jesus, can a person change his mind, from not believe to believe or vice verse. I think so

As long as you keep believe, we save

 

[Nat2019]

What is the different between work done in righteousness and work done for god through faith, can you give example?

Matt 7

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Seem to me people in verse 22 have faith that they are save, save by faith but Jesus say no

In the church I always hear the teaching if you believe by faith you are save than you are save

People in verse 22 believe they are save but it is not

Refer matthew 6 to matthew 7. Its talking about hypocrites and the pharisees. Who liked to be honoured by men. Doing things for the benefit of men and not God. Faith with works are pleasing to God. Hypocrisy is not pleasing to God. Doing things to look Good for (prideful) purposes is being a hypocrite.

Matthew 6 New International Version (NIV)
Giving to the Needy
6 “Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. So every good work we do should be to the Lord out of love for him.

2 “So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 3 But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

Prayer
5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

9 “This, then, is how you should pray:

“‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
10 your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us today our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation,[a]
but deliver us from the evil one.’

14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Fasting
16 “When you fast, do not look somber as the hypocrites do, for they disfigure their faces to show others they are fasting. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 17 But when you fast, put oil on your head and wash your face, 18 so that it will not be obvious to others that you are fasting, but only to your Father, who is unseen; and your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

Treasures in Heaven
19 “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20 But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

22 “The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are healthy,[c] your whole body will be full of light. 23 But if your eyes are unhealthy,[d] your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!

24 “No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.

Do Not Worry
25 “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes? 26 Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27 Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life[e]?

28 “And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29 Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you—you of little faith? 31 So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.