Noahs ark

[Lanolin]

I figured it was up in the highlands, not actually on top of a mountain peak. I didnt know there was a actually a mount ararat, just mountains of ararat.

Apparently mount sinai is not where the tourist spot is as its actually in .arabia, paul says in Galatians.

The remnants of Pauls shipwreck were found off Malta, and the chariots in the red sea. Also apparently the ark of the covenant is under the temple mount. Though some think its in Ethiopia.

 

[garee]

That simply isn't true. You've taken a statement made in a specific context and applied to all of Scripture... inappropriately.

Context must be applied appropriately to all of scripture searching out the spiritual understanding as for silver or gold .Digging is part of it.. .You might find a pearl..... If water is used to denote the unseen work of the Spirit in one place comparing the spiritual understanding not seen to the same .Its how the signified language works out. More then one level of meaning (no accident)

Teaching the disciples how to understand the signified language hid in parable was no option .Without the understand they had no idea of who was the greatest (not walking by faith the unseen eternal) according to the prescription for rightly dividing the parables.

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Historically true and at the same time eternally true. The gospel woven through history.

 

[garee]

The parables of Jesus were designed to hide the truth, not to reveal it.

Hid forever? Like a unknow tongue confirming nothing as a sign gift?

Parables hide the spiritual truth . Jesus taught the disciples the spiritual truths in parables. . . without parables the signified language he spoke not

Mark 4:10-12 King James Version (KJV) And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.
And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:That seeing they may see, and "not perceive"; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them

The scripture do the converting, not the disciples. If they did not learn how to interpret the parables they would still be playing the Alpha dog "who is the greatest" every time God would bring one to their new ears...

 

[garee]

There are too many "nots" in this sentence! That aside, the parables that Jesus told were just stories to illustrate a point. The Bible doesn't need to tell us whether the stories were fictitious or historical, because their historicity is irrelevant to the point Jesus was making in each case. That is the nature of parables. When you start calling everything a parable, you devalue the word and make both the actual parables and the actual history confusing.

Ok.... first you say parables don't reveal truth but only hide....and now they are fiction stories? How would that work out when applied to the parable (figure) below?

Hebrew 11: i7-19 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure. (parable)

or applied to the parable below .. What does it represent in a eternal way .Our eternal rest we do have .

What you idea of the fictitious reasoning in regard to the commandment . And why is the reasoning different in the Exodus rendering ?

Do we compare the spiritual understanding in Deuteronomy 5 to the Exodus 20 account? faith to faith as instructed in 1 Corinthians 2?

Deuteronomy 5: 15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the Lord thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the Lord thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.

What is the spiritual understanding of the parable above ?What does it confirm ? "Disney land"

 

[Dino246]

Context must be applied appropriately to all of scripture searching out the spiritual understanding as for silver or gold .Digging is part of it.. .You might find a pearl..... If water is used to denote the unseen work of the Spirit in one place comparing the spiritual understanding not seen to the same .Its how the signified language works out. More then one level of meaning (no accident)

Teaching the disciples how to understand the signified language hid in parable was no option .Without the understand they had no idea of who was the greatest (not walking by faith the unseen eternal) according to the prescription for rightly dividing the parables.

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Historically true and at the same time eternally true. The gospel woven through history.

You have completely misunderstood the concept of "context". What was said of Jesus regarding parables was never said of God in the Old Testament, nor of the Holy Spirit later in the NT. Context does not mean "spiritual understanding as ... silver or gold". That simply isn't the right idea. Context is the "space" in which something was said or done... the cultural milieu, the historical setting, the religious environment, even the geography and climate. Usually when you gain a correct understanding of the context, the text becomes clear. Without it, you are on shaky ground with any alleged "pearl".

You think you've found a pearl, and you stick to it like a starving dog with a bone, when what you actually have is a piece of quartz. The delusion is rooted in your willful misunderstanding of a relatively simple concept. Just because something is recorded in Scripture doesn't mean that there are multiple layers of meaning. Just because there are multiple layers of meaning doesn't mean the story is a parable. Learn to understand the context in which the biblical record was written, before you go hunting for treasure. Context restricts interpretation.

Recorded historical events are not parables. Once again you have invented your own definition for a term instead of accepting the established definition, and you refuse correction. Sadly, that just makes you look foolish and stubborn.

 

[garee]

Parables weren't given for the disciples, but for the general public audience.

Given as fictitious stories to the disciples?

Or were parables needed to help them understanding the how to walk by faith (not after what the eyes see) ?

Let these sayings sink down into your ears: for the Son of man shall be delivered into the hands of men. But they understood not this saying, and it was hid from them, that they perceived it not: and they feared to ask him of that saying.Then there arose a reasoning among them, which of them should be greatest. Luke 9 :44-46

Who was the greatest after voting Jesus out of the circle as not? Jun perte ..... but the one the guy with the parables the fictitious story teller... ?

Three is used through the Bible to indicate the end of a mater. Three times he brought a parable to their fleshly mind and in conclusion informed the apostles. They knew not the "manner of spirit". They were trying to use to understand using their fleshly mind rather than the new ears ( The gospel understanding)

According to their manner ?... Kill the misconceived understanding of the parable. Bring down that fire . . . .kill em all...Out od sight out of mind....

Luke 9: 55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what "manner of spirit" ye are of.

The manner seems clear to me. They understood not the spiritual understanding hid in the parable .The signified language of Christ with out it he spoke not......

 

[Webers.Home]

.

I figured it was up in the highlands, not actually on top of a mountain
peak.

Siting Noah's landing up on a mountain named Ararat is a very common
mistake along with the wide-spread belief that Jonah was alive the whole
three days and three nights he was entombed in the fish.
_

 

[garee]

Recorded historical events are not parables. Once again you have invented your own definition for a term instead of accepting the established definition, and you refuse correction. Sadly, that just makes you look foolish and stubborn.

Foolish and stubborn at the same time. stubborn yes.. Foolish I hope not?

Whose established signified definitions of the time periods used as a parable? Those who purposely leave out the first century reformation . as a pattern (parable) of the eternal things not seen?

What is the proper prescription for rightly diving the understanding hid in parables the signified understanding?

The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure (parable) for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.Hebrew 9:8-10

The signifying work of the Holy Spirit using the things seen to give us the eternal not seen ...

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

What is you idea for rightly dividing the parables>>> Look to the things seen as the literalist must? Don't pay attention to fictional stories .Save them for bedtime stories for the children?

 

[garee]

.



Siting Noah's landing up on a mountain named Ararat is a very common
mistake along with the wide-spread belief that Jonah was alive the whole
three days and three nights he was entombed in the fish.
_

Mount or kingdom...…. Ararat = "the curse reversed: precipitation of curse"

It is like someone once said… the 4 rivers flowing from the garden called East are named in the bible, as far as where they are it is not known. Some named certain rivers after the bible was written .

But they were used to represent the going out of the gospel .They could of dried up. Every name has a unseen spiritual meaning attached...

Where the Ark landed is a mystery unknown and has no value as to the work of the gospel (Eye pleasers yes) Finding it would not change the call the call of the gospel. No one ever got saved by looking at a mountain…faith does not come in that way.... They are metaphors.. walk by faith not after the things seen...

 

[Dino246]

Hid forever? Like a unknow tongue confirming nothing as a sign gift?

No; hidden from "those who don't have ears to hear". This has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with speaking in tongues.

Parables hide the spiritual truth . Jesus taught the disciples the spiritual truths in parables. . . without parables the signified language he spoke not

You're repeating your error. Jesus used parables when speaking to the public audience. When speaking with the disciples privately, He explained everything, as Mark 4 tells us:

Again Jesus began to teach by the lake. The crowd that gathered around him was so large that he got into a boat and sat in it out on the lake, while all the people were along the shore at the water’s edge. 2 He taught them many things by parables (v. 1 - 2a)

When he was alone, the Twelve and the others around him asked him about the parables. He told them, “The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables so that,
“‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving,
and ever hearing but never understanding;
otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!’” (v. 10 - 12)

With many similar parables Jesus spoke the word to them, as much as they could understand. He did not say anything to them without using a parable. But when he was alone with his own disciples, he explained everything. (v. 33 - 34)

You keep paraphrasing the verse that says Jesus only spoke in parables, but you are ignoring the fact that Jesus explained everything to the disciples. If He explained everything to the disciples, then He was not "only" speaking in parables! If you take that verse out of its context and apply it to everything in Scripture, you will (and have) come up with unsound conclusions about the nature of Scripture as a whole.

 

[Dino246]

Ok.... first you say parables don't reveal truth but only hide....and now they are fiction stories?

I did not say anything about fiction; that was PennEd quoting a dictionary definition. However, I stand by the definition he provided. Parables are not accounts of historical events. They are stories to illustrate spiritual truths.

If I read a novel, I understand that the events recorded in it are not historical events. They are fiction, made up for the purpose of entertainment. In a similar way, parables are fiction, made up for the purpose of relaying spiritual truth to a particular audience.

I also didn't say that parables "only" hide; I said that their intent was to hide the truth.

How would that work out when applied to the parable (figure) below?

Hebrew 11: i7-19 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure. (parable)

Hebrews 11:17-19 IS NOT a parable, so your point is irrelevant. You added that word, and it doesn't belong there. It isn't an appropriate synonym for 'figure'.

What you idea of the fictitious reasoning in regard to the commandment . And why is the reasoning different in the Exodus rendering ?

Again, you are attributing the concept of "fictitious" to me when I have not used it. I also think you are misunderstanding what "fiction" is. It isn't "lies". The two concepts are loosely related, but distinctly NOT synonymous.

 

[Dino246]

Foolish and stubborn at the same time. stubborn yes.. Foolish I hope not?

Whose established signified definitions of the time periods used as a parable? Those who purposely leave out the first century reformation . as a pattern (parable) of the eternal things not seen?

What is the proper prescription for rightly diving the understanding hid in parables the signified understanding?

The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure (parable) for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.Hebrew 9:8-10

The signifying work of the Holy Spirit using the things seen to give us the eternal not seen ...

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

What is you idea for rightly dividing the parables>>> Look to the things seen as the literalist must? Don't pay attention to fictional stories .Save them for bedtime stories for the children?

I suggest you rethink this in light of my previous two posts.

 

[Lanolin]

.



Siting Noah's landing up on a mountain named Ararat is a very common
mistake along with the wide-spread belief that Jonah was alive the whole
three days and three nights he was entombed in the fish.
_

Did Jonah die? Sorry can you explain. Wasnt he praying while he was inside?

 

[Lanolin]

I think Noahs ark is a parable as well as historical record. I dont think they are mutually exclusive, just like many of Jesus parables i.e Lazarus and the. Rich man. They involved real people, sometimes they werent named like 'a certain man' but those who had the key could figure it out. Like a roman a clef.

For many people its not obvious, because the spiritual meaning is hidden from them.


Ive wondered why the boat was called an ark though. There is another ark, the ark of the convenant. It doesnt have a rainbow inside, but treasures like the ten commandments and the pot of manna and the staff although, in revelation, the rainbow appears surrounding the throne.

 

[Dino246]

I think Noahs ark is a parable as well as historical record. I dont think they are mutually exclusive, just like many of Jesus parables i.e Lazarus and the. Rich man. They involved real people, sometimes they werent named like 'a certain man' but those who had the key could figure it out. Like a roman a clef.

For many people its not obvious, because the spiritual meaning is hidden from them.


Ive wondered why the boat was called an ark though. There is another ark, the ark of the convenant. It doesnt have a rainbow inside, but treasures like the ten commandments and the pot of manna and the staff although, in revelation, the rainbow appears surrounding the throne.

The story of Lazarus and the rich man is an anomaly; some people count it as a parable while others don't. All other parables that are widely recognized as such don't have proper names, but only characters. The way they are structured makes it irrelevant whether and unlikely that they are literal historical events. The story of Lazarus and the rich man suggests that it relates real events, and is therefore not truly a parable. The story of Noah's ark is clearly historical and while it conveys spiritual truths, those truths are presently plainly, not in veiled language as in the "standard" parables. If the word "parable" is used for stories not recognized widely as such, it debases both the standard parables and the historical records, because the former are given historical weight, and the latter are considered mere stories.

One key distinction is whether the main point of the story is to illustrate a spiritual truth. Related to that is whether the specific details are critical. In the "standard" parables, they aren't. The lost coin in Luke 15 might have been a lost $1,000 dollar bill, and the story's point is the same. The lost sheep might be replaced with a calf if the story were told to a group of ranchers.

As for the two arks, think of the word "ark" as meaning "box". Noah built a big box designed to float and contain humans and animals. Moses built a much smaller box designed to be carried on poles by a few men and to contain stone tables, a jar, and a staff.

 

[Dino246]

.



Siting Noah's landing up on a mountain named Ararat is a very common
mistake along with the wide-spread belief that Jonah was alive the whole
three days and three nights he was entombed in the fish.
_

Perhaps you'd like to unpack your statement... carefully, lest you be considered a denier of Scripture.

 

[Lanolin]

The story of Lazarus and the rich man is an anomaly; some people count it as a parable while others don't. All other parables that are widely recognized as such don't have proper names, but only characters. The way they are structured makes it irrelevant whether and unlikely that they are literal historical events. The story of Lazarus and the rich man suggests that it relates real events, and is therefore not truly a parable. The story of Noah's ark is clearly historical and while it conveys spiritual truths, those truths are presently plainly, not in veiled language as in the "standard" parables. If the word "parable" is used for stories not recognized widely as such, it debases both the standard parables and the historical records, because the former are given historical weight, and the latter are considered mere stories.

One key distinction is whether the main point of the story is to illustrate a spiritual truth. Related to that is whether the specific details are critical. In the "standard" parables, they aren't. The lost coin in Luke 15 might have been a lost $1,000 dollar bill, and the story's point is the same. The lost sheep might be replaced with a calf if the story were told to a group of ranchers.

As for the two arks, think of the word "ark" as meaning "box". Noah built a big box designed to float and contain humans and animals. Moses built a much smaller box designed to be carried on poles by a few men and to contain stone tables, a jar, and a staff.

I dont see it that way because people really do lose coins, people really do knock on their neighbours doors at midnight, stuff like that happens all the time. JEsus didnt have to make anything up but just distilled everything into a story to illustrate a spiritual truth, just the same as I tell my own stories about stuff that happens in my life, i dont have to make anything up but I still understand the truth of what God is saying behind it. So it becomes a parable.

 

[Lanolin]

Why is the ark in cincinatti and not...ARKansas.

Interesting that the ark is a box. Am going to refer to my car as a my ark now cos some people have said it was a shoebox on wheels.

 

[Webers.Home]

.

Did Jonah die?

Did Jesus die?

● Matt 12:40-41 . .Just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the
belly of the sea monster, so shall the Son of Man be three days and three
nights in the heart of the earth.

Had Jonah been alive the entire three days and three nights inside the fish's
tummy, it would've been necessary for Jesus to be alive the whole three
days and three nights he was in the tomb in order for the parallel to work.

Wasnt he praying while he was inside?

Jonah prayed one of his prayers from inside the fish's tummy. He prayed
another prayer before that one while he was imprisoned at the roots of the
mountains.

It's very common for Bible students to be distracted by the time element in Jonah's
nautical experience and thereby overlook the elephant in the middle of the
room: Jonah's resurrection.
_

 

[Lanolin]

.



Did Jesus die?

● Matt 12:40-41 . .Just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the
belly of the sea monster, so shall the Son of Man be three days and three
nights in the heart of the earth.

Had Jonah been alive the entire three days and three nights inside the fish's
tummy, it would've been necessary for Jesus to be alive the whole three
days and three nights he was in the tomb in order for the parallel to work.




Jonah prayed one of his prayers from inside the fish's tummy. He prayed
another prayer before that one while he was imprisoned at the roots of the
mountains.

It's very common for Bible students to be distracted by the time element in Jonah's
nautical experience and thereby overlook the elephant in the middle of the
room: Jonah's resurrection.
_

Wouldnt he have to have been alive to be praying inside the whales tummy. BTW a whale is not an elephant.

Jesus death and resurrection referring to 3 days for Jonah inside the whale was due to the fact he was buried for three days and three nights ie. in complete darkness. Yes Jesus did actually die but its not referring to Jonahs death. Just his entombment.