If Perchance Catholicism Is Mistaken

[Dan_473]

That would make God incapable of reaching every soul that He alone has created.

Catholicism teaches a false soteriology. All those who follow its teaching are lost. Religious yes but still lost in their sins.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

No, it doesn't make God incapable of reaching people.

One of the things I'm saying is this
Let's take three people
The first believes that there is one God, and that God incarnated himself as Jesus.

The second believes that there is just one God, but does not believe in the incarnation.

The third believes that there are hundreds of gods, and that Jesus, if they have heard of him, was just a wise man.

The first person is right about two things, the second is right about one thing, and the third is right about 0 things.
So I would say that the second person is better off than the first, because having the wisdom that there is just one God is better than not having that wisdom.

Regarding soteriology, I think the Catholic position is that all theology properly comes to the church, the body of Christ operating as a whole. The correct interpretation of the scriptures is given by God to the body of Christ as a whole, not to each individual separately.

I think the Protestant view tends to be that the correct interpretation of the scriptures is found by each individual reading the Bible by themselves, and with the help of the holy Spirit, arriving at the correct interpretation.

Now, just as an observation, the idea of reading the Bible for yourself would only have been available to rich people if you go back more than about five or six hundred years, before printing. Bibles were handwritten on expensive paper. And there was no public education, so unless you could afford to buy a Bible and someone taught you how to read, you wouldn't be able to read the Bible for yourself.

 

[Dan_473]

They are corrupt people, Remember in the bible story, they bribe the soldier to tell people that diciple stole Jesus body.

Yes even people say worship Abraham God some time not for real so they do not believe Jesus is God.

And Abraham God say Jesus is God, in alot of OT prophecy, yet some jew do not believe.

But moslim God tell mohammad, Jesus is not God

So catholic is Lie for say muslim worship Abraham God

Well, how about if we say it this way

Both Jews and Muslims are correct that there is one universal God.
Jews are incorrect when they say that their scriptures teach them that Jesus is not God.
Muslims are incorrect when they say that God gave the Quran to Muhammad.

Does that sound good to you?

 

[Dan_473]

Bapa kU datang, menyembahmu disini

Father I come,here to worship you

KU percaya kau ada disini bagiku

I believe you here for me

KU datang menyembahmu disini

I come here to worship you

Aku percaya kau ada disini bagiku

I believe you here for me

Tak usah kU takut karena kau sertaku

I don't need to be afraid, because you eith me

Tak usah kU bimbang kau didalam kU

Don't need to hesitant you in me

Saat kU lemah kau kuat kU

When I am weak, you are my strength

Tak usah kU cemas kau sertaku
I Don't to worry. Yup are with me
KU nyanyi Haleluya

I sing Haleluya

KU nyanyi Haleluya

I sing haleluya

Sungguh kau hebat

Truly, you are great

Ajaib perkasa

Wonderful mighty

Perbuatanmu Tuhan

What you do God

Di hidupku Tuhan

In my life God
Haleluya

Haleluya

KU nyanyi haluluya

I sing Haleluya x2

sungguh kau hebat

You are wonderful

Ajaib perkasa

Wonderful mighty

Perbuatanmu o di hidupku Tuhan

What you do oh in my life

The rest is repeatation

Right, I understand the words, with the help of a dictionary!
And praise God, what a wonderful message!

But when the singers sing
Tak usah
(No need)
It sounds like they leave the k off of Tak (no).

Is it like English speakers sometimes change "want to" into "wanna"?

Like "do you wanna go"?

 

[kaylagrl]

here's something interesting I think about people who worship Allah.

I've been learning bits and pieces of Indonesian, mostly praise choruses. Indonesia is something like 90% Muslim, but there is a growing number of Protestant Christians there and several mega churches!

One praise song I like has the phrase
Allah yang Perkasa

which roughly translates to
God that mighty one
from Isaiah 9:6
the mighty God.

are they worshipping Allah? well, sort of.

the word for God in Indonesian is Allah, probably because of the Muslim/Arabic influence.

does that mean they are following the teachings of Muhammad? not at all, they are on fire Christians just like you and me!

Woah!! Hold the horses a minute. If a Muslim is saved and born again then yes, you can say they are on fire Christians. But if you are saying they are remaining in the Muslim belief then no, they are utterly lost and on their way to hell. God and allah are not the same. Anyone perpetrating that belief is a liar,flat out. There is one God and it isn't allah.

 

[kaylagrl]

I don't think it's misleading.

it's talking about the question of what happens to people who have never heard the gospel.

It's the same situation that Paul is talking about here
Romans 2: 7. to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory, honor, and incorruptibility, eternal life; 8. but to those who are self-seeking, and don't obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, will be wrath and indignation, 9. oppression and anguish, on every soul of man who works evil, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 10. But glory, honor, and peace go to every man who works good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 11. For there is no partiality with God. 12. For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without the law. As many as have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13. For it isn't the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be justified 14. (for when Gentiles who don't have the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15. in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying with them, and their thoughts among themselves accusing or else excusing them) 16. in the day when God will judge the secrets of men, according to my Good News, by Jesus Christ.

Yes, the plan of salvation does include Muslims as it includes all humans.
They go on to write
"Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things, and as Saviour wills that all men be saved. Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life.(16)"

So I think what they're saying is that humans in all places and throughout history have always been welcome to seek God. The Muslims do you have an advantage over some cultures in that they acknowledge one universal God.

Suppose we say that Jews and Christians worship the same God. Jewish rabbis generally accepted by worldwide jewry say that God did not incarnate himself through Mary. So, is it the same God?

Jews are worshipping the same God of the OT. They are blinded (for our sake) about their Messiah. But only for a time. The time will come, and I believe soon,where the blinders will be taken off and they will see and believe. Muslims on the other hand believe in a false god. Utterly false. But I do know that many are having dreams and are coming to Christ and out of their darkness. And that's a wonderful thing.

 

[kaylagrl]

I think that Muslims worship, or say that they strive to worship, the one true God.

They are mistaken about Muhammad being God's prophet.

No, they are mistaken about muhammed and allah. Both are false.

 

[Dan_473]

Does the Catholic Church really believe in divine inspiration and its significance?

1. The CC has added seven NON-CANONICAL books to its Bibles. Both Christians and Jews reject them as being apocryphal.

2. The CC places so-called *Holy Tradition* on the same level as Scripture. Which means that it does not understand the significance of divine inspiration and authority.

Well, looking at the big picture, who decides what books should be in the Bible? Of course we can say God decides that, but how does God communicate it to humans? Did God communicate it to a group of humans? Or to each individual separately?

To put it another way, without looking at tradition, which books should be in the Bible?

 

[CharliRenee]

Our One Lord and Savior is alive and well as is His word. That is His story and I'm sticking to it.

 

[Locoponydirtman]

If it's any consolation, Martin Luther was a Catholic priest, and during the time he was an active and official priest, he had a personal conversion.

People do find the gospel, and find a personal and biblical conversion, regardless of their current circumstances, education, or vocation.

Your brother's situation is something only he and God can know.
I am an extremely adamant protestant... but I still feel confident in that assertion.

Your brother's situation is something only he and God can know.

.

What guy said about your brother.

.
My eldest brother (for convenience sake, call him Larry) was ordained to the
priesthood in 1965 and remained so for 53 years prior to passing away at
the age of 78 in May of 2018.

Larry graduated from the Pontifical Gregorian University in Rome. He taught
at the University of San Diego and has served in parishes in San Diego,
Mexico, Portland, the Tohono O'odham Indian Reservation, and Huntington
Beach. Larry served as the Director of Pastoral Ministry and the first Rector
of the Conventual Church of Our Lady of the Angels at the Franciscan
Renewal Center, Scottsdale, Arizona.

In 1973, he served at University of San Diego as an Assistant Professor of
Religious Studies in the College of Arts and Sciences. Larry then served as
the University Chaplain and Director of Campus Ministry from September
1974 until June 1984.

Larry entered the Franciscan Order to become a Friar in 1987 after serving
as a priest of the Diocese of San Diego for 22 years. During his semi
retirement years, Larry, he was a priest at the Mission San Luis Rey in
Oceanside, California.

Supposing Rome's version of Christianity is mistaken? (This is only a
hypothetical question; I'm not alleging Rome is mistaken.) The ramifications
of that would be too awful to contemplate. It would mean that my deceased
brother is right now, this very moment, in Hell regardless of the quality and
the extent of his devotion to The Church. It would also mean that my
brother was a minister of darkness rather than light; thus everyone he
influenced was led down a path leading directly to the lake of brimstone
depicted at Rev 20:11-15 where they would be facing a mode of death akin
to a foundry worker falling into a kettle of molten iron.

I can only imagine the crushing, unspeakable dismay that my brother would
undergo were it to turn out that all the while he sincerely believed himself
serving Christ's best interests, he was actually serving the Devil's.
_

I want to address something else here.
You act as if education, and teaching, and dedication to work is something to be worth account toward achieving salvation. When Jesus clearly refuted this, when he said in that day they will be many who say to me Lord Lord, and I will say go away, their response will be, but we did all this stuff in your name, and I will say to them go away I never knew you workers of iniquity. From this text I can only surmise that these folks thought that they were earning their way into the Lord's grace by doing works, not relying on the Gospel of grace. That these men relied upon their own righteousness rather than that of the Lord himself. Why would you think that all the merit he earned in the eyes of men means anything other than futility with out the one factor that actually matters? Faith in Grace.
Now back to your brother, we have no idea as to whether he did all these things because of faith in Grace, if his work was driven by love for the Lord and gratitude for what Jesus has done for us. You never spoke on that account. You spoke about devotion to his church, not devotion to the Lord.
So because I have only this little information I will speak no more of your brother.
As for Catholicism, I think that other than the idolatry of praying to saints and Mary worship an pope worship, they have another even more heinous teaching, and that is penance or works theology. They do works of penance rather than repentance. They rely on beads and numerous repeated mantras rather than contrition and mercy. The reason why this is worse than idolatry is because they cause others to fall in this.

 

[kaylagrl]

I don't know about the specific situation of the girl in the video.

But no, I disagree that the Muslim God, in the sense that Muslims strive to worship the one true God, told mohammad that Jesus is not God.

It's possible to want to serve the one true universal God, and be mistaken about some things. This is the situation that the Jews are in. They want to worship the one true God, but they are mistaken in that they think Jesus was not sent from God.

So also Muslims say they want to worship the one true God. That's a good start, but they are mistaken, Muhammad is not the one true God's prophet.

Again, the Muslims do not believe in the One true God. They believe in allah, who is not God. Then they tac a false prophet on top of that. They are lost. Where as the Jews believe in the One true God and been blinded to Christ for a time.

 

[PennEd]

Well, how about if we say it this way

Both Jews and Muslims are correct that there is one universal God.
Jews are incorrect when they say that their scriptures teach them that Jesus is not God.
Muslims are incorrect when they say that God gave the Quran to Muhammad.

Does that sound good to you?

I think the question you asked, "Yet Jews say that Jesus is not God. So how can they be believing in the God of Abraham?" , is a good one, but the answer has to be that they DON'T believe in the God of Abraham.
John 8:56-58 New King James Version (NKJV)
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”

57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”

58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”



And the Muslims CERTAINLY don't believe in the God of Abraham because they also don't believe Jesus is God in the Flesh.

 

[kaylagrl]

Jackson, my man, here's a question.

Do Jews worship the same God that Christians do?

Yes, they do, simple answer found in Romans 11.

 

[kaylagrl]

It might be more complicated than that

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility#Instances_of_papal_infallibility

"There is debate in the Church between those who believe that infallibility is exercised rarely and explicitly and those that believe that it is common. However, the Catholic Church does not teach that the pope is infallible in everything he says; official invocation of papal infallibility is extremely rare."

Jesus is our high priest, we confess to Him alone. Neither there is there a need for a pope. Jesus cut out the middle man with His death on the cross. He was the sacrifice. Now we can go boldly to the throne of God, through Christ.

 

[Dan_473]

Woah!! Hold the horses a minute. If a Muslim is saved and born again then yes, you can say they are on fire Christians. But if you are saying they are remaining in the Muslim belief then no, they are utterly lost and on their way to hell. God and allah are not the same. Anyone perpetrating that belief is a liar,flat out. There is one God and it isn't allah.

I was talking about the "...growing number of Protestant Christians there and several mega churches".

They definitely cease to be Muslims, the people I'm talking about, and earnestly seek to serve Jesus as Lord and savior.

The worship services of the Indonesian mega churches I've seen on YouTube seem to be Church of God in the general feel of the services. A Pentecostal flavor.

In fact, the thing that got me interested in learning Indonesian was sometimes hearing what sounded like speaking in tongues from some of the worship leaders. It didn't sound like the tongues that I heard going up, similar but kind of like with a different accent. So I wanted to know if growing up speaking a different language would affect how one would speak in tongues, and the answer seems to be yes.

And I like seeing how a non Indo-European language is constructed, and what loanwords they brought in from Arabic, Hindi, and the colonial Germanic languages.

And I love seeing how another culture Expresses worship to the true and living God through Jesus Christ! You can see in the video I posted, how that particular church is using a kind of praise dance team of young people, in addition to the singers and musicians. And the dance team has a leader that they follow, but kind of loosely.

Kind of like Miriam in Exodus 15, I think it is.

The common Indonesian word for God is Allah. So that's what Born again Indonesian Christians will usually call God. The other possible word for God is Tuhan, but that usually yes used for Lord, as in
Tuhan Yesus (Lord Jesus)!

 

[kaylagrl]

Right, most of the time God uses a human preacher.

So, using the example of the Lakota person above that I talked about, can they be saved? Or, will they just have to go to hell because there were no missionaries in that area 1000 years ago?

The Bible says we can find Him if we seek Him and that there are things all around us that lead us to Him. But there are also false gods, like what the Muslims believe. And when they die Muslims do not inherit heaven because they have believed in a false god.

 

[Dan_473]

Jews are worshipping the same God of the OT. They are blinded (for our sake) about their Messiah. But only for a time. The time will come, and I believe soon,where the blinders will be taken off and they will see and believe. Muslims on the other hand believe in a false god. Utterly false. But I do know that many are having dreams and are coming to Christ and out of their darkness. And that's a wonderful thing.

I hear what you're saying.
I think Muslims are right about one thing. Muslims believe that there is a single Creator God, and that there are no other gods. But they are wrong when they say that Muhammad is God's prophet.

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

No, it doesn't make God incapable of reaching people.

One of the things I'm saying is this
Let's take three people
The first believes that there is one God, and that God incarnated himself as Jesus.

The second believes that there is just one God, but does not believe in the incarnation.

The third believes that there are hundreds of gods, and that Jesus, if they have heard of him, was just a wise man.

The first person is right about two things, the second is right about one thing, and the third is right about 0 things.
So I would say that the second person is better off than the first, because having the wisdom that there is just one God is better than not having that wisdom.

Regarding soteriology, I think the Catholic position is that all theology properly comes to the church, the body of Christ operating as a whole. The correct interpretation of the scriptures is given by God to the body of Christ as a whole, not to each individual separately.

I think the Protestant view tends to be that the correct interpretation of the scriptures is found by each individual reading the Bible by themselves, and with the help of the holy Spirit, arriving at the correct interpretation.

Now, just as an observation, the idea of reading the Bible for yourself would only have been available to rich people if you go back more than about five or six hundred years, before printing. Bibles were handwritten on expensive paper. And there was no public education, so unless you could afford to buy a Bible and someone taught you how to read, you wouldn't be able to read the Bible for yourself.

One interpretation is that Revelation 11: 1-11 prophesied this.
That for 3 and half days (which can mean 3 and a half years, which can mean 1260 days, which can mean 1260 years) the 2 witnesses were dead. So this might mean that for 1260 years the Word and Holy Spirit were kept (separated) from the people. Perhaps this 1260 years started around the time Christianity fused with Roman Culture (~325 AD) and ended about 1260 years with the start of the reformation at about 1585 AD).

What Happened In the 16th century which was about 1260 years after ~325AD
In Renaissance Europe, the arrival of mechanical movable type printing introduced the era of mass communication, which permanently altered the structure of society. The relatively unrestricted circulation of information and (revolutionary) ideas transcended borders, captured the masses in the Reformation and threatened the power of political and religious authorities.

Renaissance Period (1300 -1600 AD)
Reformation Period (1517 - 1648 AD)

Revelation foretells about the 1st and 2nd Beast and about the beast that killed the 2 witnesses.
Could the 1st Beast have been the Roman (and then Byzantine) Empire
Could the 2nd Beast have been the middle ages Roman Catholic Church?

 

[Dan_473]

No, they are mistaken about muhammed and allah. Both are false.

As I understand it, Allah is simply the common Arabic word for God.

You probably know that Arabic and Hebrew are both Semitic languages. The basic Hebrew root word for God is El. In Arabic the basic root is Al. The roots are obviously related, just a little pronunciation drift. The common word for God in the old testament is "Elohim" (literally "Gods"). How the Al root became Allah, I don't know.
Would you be offended if someone said
"There is no God but Elohim"?

Kind of like in English we say God, and in German they say Gott.

So I think we could talk about the Muslim situation either of two ways

Muslims are on the right track with believing that there is just one God, but they are misled about God giving Muhammad the Quran.

Or we could say that the god that Muslims believe in, the god that inspired the Quran, is either non-existent, that is to say a false god, or it was a satanic force or a demon.

 

[CharliRenee]

I hear what you're saying.
I think Muslims are right about one thing. Muslims believe that there is a single Creator God, and that there are no other gods. But they are wrong when they say that Muhammad is God's prophet.

I am curious. So you are saying there are some muslims who believe in Yud Heh Vav Heh, Yaweh, the Heavenly Father, who gave His only begotten son, Yeshua/Jesus, who died and rose again so that we could be reconciled to God?

I would agree with that, if that is what they proclaim. But if they call their God, Allah, I would question, very much if we are serving the same master.

I will admit that I have not studied any of their beliefs concerning Allah, simply because it seems only my God deserves my focus. However, you have peaked my curiosity a bit. I would want to separate myself from even the slightest doubt of who it is I am serving. His name matters.

 

[Dan_473]

Again, the Muslims do not believe in the One true God. They believe in allah, who is not God. Then they tac a false prophet on top of that. They are lost. Where as the Jews believe in the One true God and been blinded to Christ for a time.

Well, I would see it differently, as I talked about above.

Muslims believe that there is just one God. They are correct about that. The common Arabic word for God is Allah, though I agree that many Muslims seem to think of it as a personal name. Kind of like how many English speakers think of God as a personal name, when it is actually a title.

But Muslims are wrong about Muhammad. a person can be right about one thing and wrong about something else.

To use a different situation, are Jehovah's witnesses right when they say that God created the heavens and the Earth? they are wrong when they say that Jesus is not God.