Resurrection

[Ahwatukee]

We follow the example of Jesus:

Matt 27:50When Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, He yielded up His spirit. 51At that moment the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth quaked and the rocks were split. 52The tombs broke open, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. 53After Jesus’ resurrection, when they had come out of the tombs, they entered the holy city and appeared to many people.

1. Jesus resurrected immediately after dying and no one saw because it is a spiritual happening rather than a physical one

2. Yes it can happen that people see a resurrected body/spiritual body, example: Jesus after resurrection or the OT saints that appeared but this is a spiritual appearance. It plays in the mind of the witnesses as if a vision (my opinion). So no flesh and bones, these must pass away because they are the works of this earth.

After Jesus’ resurrection

You are reading it incorrectly. The above that you quoted does not mean that the Lord resurrected after He cried out on the cross, but is stating that after His resurrection 3 days later the bodies of many saints came out of the tombs.

So no flesh and bones, these must pass away because they are the works of this earth.

Scripture would disagree with you:

"Look at My hands and My feet. It is I Myself. Touch Me and see—for a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”

So, Jesus did indeed resurrect in a flesh and bone body. To claim that He did not rise bodily brings your faith into question, because believing in His bodily resurrection is mandatory for salvation (see 1 Cor.15:12-15)

 

[garee]

Elijah returned to dust interesting haven’t read that in the Bible.

I don't think he is hiding out. That sound more like a Peter thing. He had the same kind of corrupted flesh show by death aging. of his own flesh he said that seen could never profit as it they were the eternal.

Where do you think the corrupted dust returns to when God takes away the temporal spirit he gave them which in respect to his whole person body soul and spirit as a whole was subject to His law . . . . .You shall surely die?

Was it a half of the wage of sin. Your body will die but your corrupted spirit never will?

Its never about the things of men seen but is about the unseen eternal, the things of God. Peter learned that the hard was a we all do by faith it working in us must increase we must decrease .

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Psalm 104:29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.

The 20/20 vision as "Law of faith" as it is written in 2 Corinthians. Don't leave earth without it.

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

John 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

 

[garee]

Not one verse, i think i have explained myself in post#42


Rapture however is a great misunderstanding coming from one one phrase, "..caught in the air.."

What do you think that phrase .."caught in the air. represents"? Caught up in the invisible presence of God? Perhaps like the Bosom of Abraham of heavenly father of all nations. People cannot fly ?

 

[Ahwatukee]

Off topic but only just, nevertheless:

1. Death of the saints being precious to God is not the only verse that is against rapture. It affirms many other verses.

Isa 57:
1The righteous perish,
and no one takes it to heart;
the devout are taken away,
and no one understands
that the righteous are taken away
to be spared from evil.

2Those who walk uprightly
enter into peace;
they find rest as they lie in death.

This verse confirms the correct meaning of Jesus' saying, ".. the days of the elect shall be shortened on this earth..."

The above scriptures are speaking in regards to the spirits of the righteous. The resurrection is a bodily standing up again which will take place all at once. The above doesn't support your claim of their being no gathering of the living church. They're just misapplied scripture.

Rev 14:14-20 Says a sharp sickle is used to harvest the earth, both good and bad. Sharp things usually cause pain and are deadly

This scripture above has nothing to do with the church at all, but are two harvests which will take place towards the end of the tribulation period.

And Jesus, who supposedly meets people in the air, prays against such thoughts:

Again, scripture would disagree with you and you are ignoring the plain teaching on this:

"After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord."

So, you are completely ignoring the fact that the scripture above states that believers will be caught up with those who will have just resurrected in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. As I said, all that you are doing is sweeping the truth of God's word under the carpet in order to protect the false teachings that you have adopted. Your exegesis is one-sided.

John 17:15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one.

Yes, I am very familiar with the false apologetic above, as many have tried to use it to support their erroneous belief. The verse above was a prayer for the disciples. The Lord was not praying for them to be taken out of the world at that time, because if they were then we would not be having this debate and that because the gospel would not have been preached. So here again, you are using the above scripture to support your lopsided belief and at the same time sweeping under the rug the other scriptures that say the Lord is coming back to resurrect the dead, change the living and catch them all up into the air.

 

[stonesoffire]

Well, the resurrection is not a process. When the Lord appears the church, dead and living, will be caught up all at once. It's not a process that we can walk, it's an immediate change from mortal to immortal. We cannot walk in it, because it is a group event which will take place at the appearing of the Lord.

You aren’t understanding what I’m referring to. What in your view was the high calling of God in Christ Jesus?

 

[Ahwatukee]

1. Why superimpose a 2000 year duration on to the scriptures? Your 2 millennia basis of understanding is creating a pseudo-reality over the truth which the scripture was supposed to create in you.

Paul being miles away, is communicating by the way of letters to Corinthians and Thessalonians and other groups in the 1st/2nd century. The recipients of these letters, read them as they were and as they were intended by the author and perceiving them as being directed to them because the letter was sent to them.

So, when Paul says "..we shall not all sleep but we shall be transformed in the twinkling of a eye..", the recipients read and believed that some within them will not sleep but be transformed just as Paul had intended. None of them thought this was never meant for them.
What you now need to do is study what it meant some were to sleep and others transformed.

2. Your last day is not my last day and the trumps are just symbolic markers of what must happen in time. It is not possible for a believer to sleep today, aren't you aware that Christ is the resurrection and life? meaning that death can not overcome you but you overcome death just like Christ did. This is how it works; death is death because it overcomes life even if it is just for a millisecond but life eternal is not overcome by death. This why Paul says we are transformed rather than sleeping, we transition from this life to another.

John 11:25Jesus said to her,“I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me will live, even though he dies. 26And everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”

3. The application of these teaching (Resurrection) by Paul and others shows something different:

1 Thess 4:
16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.
18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

2 Cor 4:
12So then, death is at work in us, but life is at work in you.
13And in keeping with what is written: “I believed, therefore I have spoken,”c we who have the same spirit of faith also believe and therefore speak, 14knowing that the One who raised the Lord Jesus will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you in His presence. 15All this is for your benefit, so that the grace that is extending to more and more people may overflow in thanksgiving, to the glory of God.


At one point, Paul counts himself amongst the alive that are being caught up with the dead and in another place amongst the dead that are raised and presented together with his living listeners. This clearly shows that it is a continuous process starting at some point, 2 millennia ago.

There was a reason why I had you on "ignore" and that is where you are going back to. You have no idea of what you are talking about and should be teaching anything having to do with the word of God. You have a major problem to begin with which is not believing in the bodily resurrection of Jesus, which is mandatory for salvation.

The teaching that Jesus did not rise bodily, but rose an invisible spirit creature, is a Jehovah's witness teaching. Think about that!

 

[JamOn]

I don't think he is hiding out. That sound more like a Peter thing. He had the same kind of corrupted flesh show by death aging. of his own flesh he said that seen could never profit as it they were the eternal.

Where do you think the corrupted dust returns to when God takes away the temporal spirit he gave them which in respect to his whole person body soul and spirit as a whole was subject to His law . . . . .You shall surely die?

Was it a half of the wage of sin. Your body will die but your corrupted spirit never will?

Its never about the things of men seen but is about the unseen eternal, the things of God. Peter learned that the hard was a we all do by faith it working in us must increase we must decrease .

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Psalm 104:29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.

The 20/20 vision as "Law of faith" as it is written in 2 Corinthians. Don't leave earth without it.

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

John 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

I’d rather see about what scripture says about Elijah and his death as you said he returned to dust. instead of verses about dust.

 

[Ahwatukee]

its not a matter of refuting, its a matter of me accepting your interpretation of these scriptures. Nevertheless I have really enjoyed our conversation.

I only wished that you believed the truth.

 

[Noose]

Again, scripture would disagree with you and you are ignoring the plain teaching on this:

"After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord."

So, you are completely ignoring the fact that the scripture above states that believers will be caught up with those who will have just resurrected in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. As I said, all that you are doing is sweeping the truth of God's word under the carpet in order to protect the false teachings that you have adopted. Your exegesis is one-sided.

A whole doctrine out of a greatly misunderstood, single phrase, "..caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air..."
Paul is saying, "We who are alive..". Paul is not saying, "those who will be alive" as if to mean some distant future.

Again, Paul says, "..we shall be resurrected and presented together with you", Paul is not saying, "we shall be resurrected and presented together with those" as if to mean distant future.

Take note.

Yes, I am very familiar with the false apologetic above, as many have tried to use it to support their erroneous belief. The verse above was a prayer for the disciples. The Lord was not praying for them to be taken out of the world at that time, because if they were then we would not be having this debate and that because the gospel would not have been preached. So here again, you are using the above scripture to support your lopsided belief and at the same time sweeping under the rug the other scriptures that say the Lord is coming back to resurrect the dead, change the living and catch them all up into the air.

Of course you are aware but it seems you don't like reading:

John 17:15My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one.
......
20“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,

 

[PERFECTION]

If Paul taught what Jesus taught it's both. Let's face it SANCTIFICATION is an on going Process that CHANGES US. Changes us how? To Perfection (Maturing believers to be more like Christ) and Holiness (Sanctification) which God Himself commandeers and this is a Spiritual resurrection, dead now ALIVE! We know it as Baptism by Fire administrated by the Holy Spirit. This is were the 'old man dies and the new creature in Christ is quickened or is resurrected by the indwelling of Ruach or the Spirit of God (Holy Spirit). The other suggest AN APPEARING, which Paul emphasized in many of his letters to Christians, that will happen in a split second or as Paul communicates "a blink of an eye" will be an EVENT. Depending on the context and it's narration it's both. Blessings

Dear brother: If "SANCTIFICATION" is an on going process that means it is achieved through ones works. Now to him that work worketh, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt. Our sanctification comes by grace through faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ.
We believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, that he came to earth in the form of a man, that he was crucified, was buried and on the third day arose from the grave. We believe that the Blood He shed was poured out on the alter that the Father had prepared for Him. If this Blood did not achieve a complete work in our standing before God what will be bring to the alter to replace this blood in order to achieve our sanctification . He who is free in Christ is free indeed.

 

[Noose]

There was a reason why I had you on "ignore" and that is where you are going back to. You have no idea of what you are talking about and should be teaching anything having to do with the word of God. You have a major problem to begin with which is not believing in the bodily resurrection of Jesus, which is mandatory for salvation.

The teaching that Jesus did not rise bodily, but rose an invisible spirit creature, is a Jehovah's witness teaching. Think about that!

Matt 27:
50And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.
51At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and e went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

I'm very sure this did not happen after 3 days but immediately after His death, at that very moment.

 

[garee]

Scripture would disagree with you:

"Look at My hands and My feet. It is I Myself. Touch Me and see—for a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”

So, Jesus did indeed resurrect in a flesh and bone body. To claim that He did not rise bodily brings your faith into question, because believing in His bodily resurrection is mandatory for salvation (see 1 Cor.15:12-15)

Amen...Yes a spirit does not have flesh and bones. Flesh and bone without a spirit has no life essence that could move the flesh .(work of faith or labor of love) being dead, no power by itself. Reminded me of Jesus when he said; why call me good master?

I would offer. . . he called Thomas "faithless" as an example of unbelief. Catholics use it to support the law of their fathers as the things of men seen..

He informs us in John 6 his corrupted flesh as to what the eyes sees profits for nothing. But it is the unseen Spirit that does give spirit life.

His flesh did not see corruption for those three days and nights. This was so men would not put the things seen, people in the Holy unseen place of our Father in heaven . The power of salvation is not in respect to the flesh of the Son of man Jesus it provided the demonstration promised in Isaiah 53. Powerless not worthless as a demonstration. In that way it would appear as no such thing as holiness of the flesh it was made holy by the holiness of His Spirit not seen the faith principle.

Romans 1:3-5 King James Version (KJV) Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

We walk by faith the unseen eternal . Even Jesus refused to stand in the Holy place of his father. When called good master knowing no man can serve two. Jesus said God alone (not see) is good. The good signature as a seal of the approval of Him not seen.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Christ's three day labor of love as a work of His faith is the source of our new life. He must continue to increase as we cry out in our suffering he can give us rest strengthening us to finish the work..

 

[KJV1611]

Matt 27:
50And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.
51At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and e went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

I'm very sure this did not happen after 3 days but immediately after His death, at that very moment.

I think the graves came open when Jesus died but their bodies lie in the graves for three days. During the three days Christ was ministering to their spirits in Abraham’s bosom.

After that, Christ rose and the saints rose immediately behind him.

 

[garee]

Matt 27:
50And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.
51At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and e went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

I'm very sure this did not happen after 3 days but immediately after His death, at that very moment.

Yes he of his volition gave up the Spirit. (God cannot die) The father kept his body from corrupting for three day . The death was not attributed to the hands of Satan inspired men .It bruised his heel .But a demonstatation of Isaiah 53 . The father and Son working together in perfect harmony and submission to one another . The two working as one .

It brought the peace of God that surpasses our understanding as the mystery of faith.

Those whose graves were opened were in the invisible presence of God . It would seem the bosom of Abraham that did represent the unseen presence was changed and is now respected by the heavenly city prepared as his bride. that he named Christian in the book of Acts . A word that literally means; "residents of the heavenly city named after her founder and husband Christ" a befitting name for his bride. .the church

 

[PERFECTION]

A whole doctrine out of a greatly misunderstood, single phrase, "..caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air..."
Paul is saying, "We who are alive..". Paul is not saying, "those who will be alive" as if to mean some distant future.

Again, Paul says, "..we shall be resurrected and presented together with you", Paul is not saying, "we shall be resurrected and presented together with those" as if to mean distant future.

Take note.



Of course you are aware but it seems you don't like reading:

John 17:15My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one.
......
20“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,

Could it be that the clouds you refer to is the same cloud of witness that surround us at this very moment? I have love ones in this cloud. It is strange to me that many people are reluctant to discusses scripture with those whom they do not necessarily agree with. Because a persons interpretation does not agree with theirs they must be a false profit. If my faith can be shaken as a result of what someones interpretation of scripture that differs from mine then I welcome the shaking. For if I have been shaken it means my faith is not on solid ground. I know in hindsight God has never been offended at me because of my dogmatic interpretations.

 

[JamOn]

Yes he of his volition gave up the Spirit. (God cannot die) The father kept his body from corrupting for three day . The death was not attributed to the hands of Satan inspired men .It bruised his heel .But a demonstatation of Isaiah 53 . The father and Son working together in perfect harmony and submission to one another . The two working as one .

It brought the peace of God that surpasses our understanding as the mystery of faith.

Those whose graves were opened were in the invisible presence of God . It would seem the bosom of Abraham that did represent the unseen presence was changed and is now respected by the heavenly city prepared as his bride. that he named Christian in the book of Acts . A word that literally means; "residents of the heavenly city named after her founder and husband Christ" a befitting name for his bride. .the church

Don’t mean to harp man, but where did you get those literal meanings, I’ve did a search and haven’t found any that says the word Christian literally means, residents of the heavenly city.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Could it be that the clouds you refer to is the same cloud of witness that surround us at this very moment?

No, it could not be referring to the "great cloud of witnesses." To do so would be to apply a figurative meaning to what is meant to be literal, like difference between scripture speaking about the literal temple vs. the temple of our bodies. So let's look at the scripture again in order to discern whether clouds are being spoken of figuratively or literally:

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord."

So, we have the scripture stating that the dead in Christ will be resurrected caught up with those who are still alive at that time being changed (1 Cor.15:51-52) and "caught up" with them "in the clouds" to meet the Lord "in the air." By taking all of these into consideration, it is clear that this is not speaking figuratively about a great cloud of witnesses, but living believers being caught up with those who will have resurrected in literal clouds, which is supported by the fact that the whole group meets the Lord in the air.

 

[superMan9]

Dear brother: If "SANCTIFICATION" is an on going process that means it is achieved through ones works. Now to him that work worketh, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt. Our sanctification comes by grace through faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ.
We believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, that he came to earth in the form of a man, that he was crucified, was buried and on the third day arose from the grave. We believe that the Blood He shed was poured out on the alter that the Father had prepared for Him. If this Blood did not achieve a complete work in our standing before God what will be bring to the alter to replace this blood in order to achieve our sanctification . He who is free in Christ is free indeed.

Sanctification is God doing the work not the individual. I did stress that. Please re-read. And you're mistaken to think a believer's works can be warranted as SANCTIFICATION.

[1Th 5:23 NKJV] 23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Noose]

I think the graves came open when Jesus died but their bodies lie in the graves for three days. During the three days Christ was ministering to their spirits in Abraham’s bosom.

After that, Christ rose and the saints rose immediately behind him.

A spirit is an understanding, he can not be in one particular place at one particular time; He also promised the thief on the cross a nice walk with him in paradise that very night, remember? So IMO, at that very moment, everything detailed in that passage happened as soon as Jesus gave up His ghost.

 

[garee]

Don’t mean to harp man, but where did you get those literal meanings, I’ve did a search and haven’t found any that says the word Christian literally means, residents of the heavenly city.

Its what the word the promised new name for the bride I beleive was intended to mean coming in at a appropriate time period .The time of reformation. The end of the pagan form of government. Christian a word that denotes a place . It would seem the word has lost that kind of understanding. Some say it was a derogatory word given by the world and not a name God gave to honor His bride the church. The first century new testament era began with suffering under the new name God named His bride. Christian

The suffix -ian is used to create adjectives from Latin nouns attributed to the founder or husband of the city. .The suffix -ian. . . denotes either coming from or belonging to. So the use of the word Christian would mean someone that comes from Christ or belonging to Christ as residents of His Holy city. Just as used with other cities . Philippians as to its residents named after it founder Philipp .