The Tribulation and the Church, WHEN?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Nov 23, 2013
13,684
1,212
113
#81
No, that is not proof either. Many try to use this as a means to show that He would be coming back in the same generation from which He was living in. How do you know that Jesus wasn't talking about His resurrection? It would have been true that the disciples would not have gone throughout the cities of Israel before the Son of man was resurrected. Did you ever think about that?

"Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened.

To be clear, I believe that we are living in that last generation, but the main events that Jesus spoke of have not taken yet place. Once the church is removed, then those signs will take place.
I do believe Jesus was talking about his resurrection and that’s kind of the point I was making. Not all verses in the Bible are talking about the second advent.

When Jesus said this generation, he meant that generation. Jesus came in power and glory when he resurrected.... the kingdom of heaven came at that time.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,777
113
#82
Every place in the scriptures where the '1260' is mentioned is not referring to the same thing as all of the others. Also (I believe), some are actual days and others are in years.
God is NOT a God of confusion. 1260 days means 1260 days, jut like a (one) thousand years means 1,000 years.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,777
113
#83
There is no gap in the 70 weeks of Daniel - all of which have already 100% come to pass - in a single unbroken stretch of time.
Is that wishful thinking or sober interpretation? If the 70 weeks of Daniel had already been fulfilled, we would now be literally living in the New Heavens and the New Earth WHEREIN DWELLETH RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,
[1] to finish the transgression,
[2] and to make an end of sins,
[3] and to make reconciliation for iniquity,
[4] and to bring in everlasting righteousness,
[5] and to seal up the vision and prophecy,
[6] and to anoint the most Holy.
 
Nov 23, 2013
13,684
1,212
113
#84
Though the fig tree was used figuratively to represent Israel, the scripture above is not referring to Israel. In support of this let's look at Luke's version of the same scripture:

"Look at the fig tree and all the trees. When they sprout leaves, you can see for yourselves and know that summer is near."

The mention of "all the trees" would demonstrate that the parable is a simple comparison:

The fig tree and all trees blossoming = summer is near

So also, when you see these things happening = The end of the age

Although Israel becoming a nation is definitely prophetic, the verse Has nothing to do with Israel becoming a nation. It was just assumed because of the use of the fig tree. But as I pointed out the blossoming of all the trees is mentioned as well.




Until you have the first part of the verse fulfilled, then you can't have fulfillment of the last part of the verse. Therefore, since "this generation" is dependent upon those signs and they haven't happened yet, then the generation that Jesus spoke of could not be the one He was living in.
In Amos God said he was done with his people Israel and will never pass by them again. So Israel becoming a nation in 1948 has nothing to do with biblical prophecy.

“Summer is nigh” is directly pointing to Amos 8:2 - when summer comes, Israel is done.
 
Nov 23, 2013
13,684
1,212
113
#85
Further more and regarding your claim that Matt.24:32 consider the following:

"In the morning, as Jesus was returning to the city, He was hungry. Seeing a fig tree by the road, He went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. “May you never bear fruit again!” He said. And immediately the tree withered."

Is the above also a parable about Israel just because the fig tree is used? Or is it just a teaching on what we can accomplish having faith?
It sounds like this to me:

Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Would you consider those verses to be “we can accomplish anything through faith” or Jesus cursing Israel the fig tree?
 
Nov 23, 2013
13,684
1,212
113
#86
Is that wishful thinking or sober interpretation? If the 70 weeks of Daniel had already been fulfilled, we would now be literally living in the New Heavens and the New Earth WHEREIN DWELLETH RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,
[1] to finish the transgression,
[2] and to make an end of sins,
[3] and to make reconciliation for iniquity,
[4] and to bring in everlasting righteousness,
[5] and to seal up the vision and prophecy,
[6] and to anoint the most Holy.
What about the everlasting righteous of Christ imputed to believers? Isn’t that everlasting righteousness? Wasn’t it brought in with resurrection of Christ?
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,777
113
#87
What about the everlasting righteous of Christ imputed to believers? Isn’t that everlasting righteousness? Wasn’t it brought in with resurrection of Christ?
Daniel's prophecy has nothing to do with imputed righteousness. But it has everything to do with everlasting righteousness, which will be literally in effect within a New Heavens and a New Earth.

Peter tells us clearly that all the sin, evil, filth, corruption, and pollution that exists on this earth will be burned up with an intense supernatural fire from God, after which a genuinely righteous and peaceful earth will exist for ever. And only then will the prophecy of Daniel be fulfilled.

2 PETER 3

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men...

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
 
Nov 23, 2013
13,684
1,212
113
#88
Daniel's prophecy has nothing to do with imputed righteousness. But it has everything to do with everlasting righteousness, which will be literally in effect within a New Heavens and a New Earth.

Peter tells us clearly that all the sin, evil, filth, corruption, and pollution that exists on this earth will be burned up with an intense supernatural fire from God, after which a genuinely righteous and peaceful earth will exist for ever. And only then will the prophecy of Daniel be fulfilled.

2 PETER 3

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men...

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Daniel 9:24 says to bring in everlasting righteousness, did everlasting righteousness come with the resurrection of Christ or no?

Edit to add. 2 Peter 3 makes no mention of everlasting righteousness.
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
#89
Garee, with respect, it would really help if you learned how to write coherent and concise English sentences. There isn't a single one in your post.
I was explaining the difference between the two kinds of generations as to there use.
 

GaryA

Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage
Aug 10, 2019
9,834
4,320
113
mywebsite.us
#90
Is that wishful thinking or sober interpretation? If the 70 weeks of Daniel had already been fulfilled, we would now be literally living in the New Heavens and the New Earth WHEREIN DWELLETH RIGHTEOUSNESS.
sober interpretation

Daniel 9 is not about the End Times Scenario.

Go read the 'Seventy Weeks' page on my website.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,489
13,797
113
#91
I was explaining the difference between the two kinds of generations as to there use.
I don't doubt your good intentions. The problem is the disconnect between your written words and your audience. Do you consider your message important enough to ensure that it is understandable to others?
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,376
113
#92
Thanks I missed your post.
Hello UnderGrace,

Consider this, KJV1611 would have you and others believe that the scripture that he quoted as being proof that Christ returned in 70 AD. For that to be true, and I'm just using one example from the Olivet Discourse, the following would have had to happen:

* The abomination that causes desolation would have been set up in the Holy Place

* The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken

* the Son of Man would have appeared in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn.

* The inhabitants of the earth would have seen the Son of Man arriving on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

* He would have sent out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they would have gathered His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Now according to the disciples question, all of the above is to happen when Jesus returns to the earth to the end the age. And since we are talking about the end of the age, we can jump over to Revelation and include all of the events listed there regarding the end of the age, such as the following:

"Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out in a loud voice to all the birds flying overhead, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings and commanders and mighty men, of horses and riders, of all men slave and free, small and great.”

So according to the scripture above which takes place as Jesus is returning to the earth, an angel is going to call all of the birds of the air and gather them together to eat the flesh of all those that Jesus is going to kill with that double-edged sword.

In addition to that, the beast and the false prophet would have had to have been captured and thrown into the lake of fire alive.

Now, I've just mentioned a couple of the major events that accompany the Lord's return to the earth to end the age and many more, such as the events of God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments which much take place prior to the end of the age.

Taking into consideration Just the few events that I have listed which must take place when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age, it should be ridiculously obvious that the Lord did not return in 70 AD and that because none of those events have taken place, not to mention that Jesus said that the time leading up to His return would be a time of great tribulation such as the world has never seen from the beginning, until now and never to be equaled again. Regarding this, though the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem was a terrible event, it does not meet the conditions previously mentioned.

In addition to this, if Jesus would have returned in 70 AD, the majority of the church would have been left out of His promise to come and gather us. The blessed hope would have only been for those who became believers in Christ from Pentecost up to 70 AD and the rest of the church throughout 1900 centuries would be left out of the promise.

Preterist should be ashamed of themselves for believing and teaching this trash, as well fearing for their eternal lives.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,376
113
#93
Can it not just be a time stamp... an indicator using the signs of nature.

The Reformation Study Bible notes, "There does not seem to be any specific symbolic sense to this 'fig tree' (such as the re-emergence of the nation of Israel), especially since the parallel passage (Luke 21:29) adds 'and all the trees.' Jesus is simply saying that just as there are signs of what is to come in the natural realm, so it is in the spiritual." With reference to "this generation", it is noted that, "For the event of the destruction of the temple, the phrase refers to Jesus' own generation."[8]
Well, the problem with that is, the only reason for interpreting the fig tree as representing Israel is because it was used in another scripture as figurative as a fig tree. However, that does not mean that every time we see the words "fig tree" that it is always referring to Israel. It's assumed. As an example, when Jesus cursed the fig tree and it withered, was that also a reference to Israel?

The mention of "all the trees" takes away the inference of Israel being the fig tree and demonstrates that the parable was just a comparison that when you see the trees blossoming you know that summer is near and in the same way when you see all of these signs, you know that the end of the age is near. The signs therefore identified the generation that Jesus was referring to. Since none of the signs have taken place, then we have no fulfillment.
 
Apr 3, 2019
1,495
768
113
#94
Hebrews also states that Christ's return was in the 1st century:

(Heb 10:37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. )

Will not tarry Harry, He was returning in a little while. The futurists have Him tarrying for nearly 2000 years.
 

GaryA

Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage
Aug 10, 2019
9,834
4,320
113
mywebsite.us
#95
Is that wishful thinking or sober interpretation? If the 70 weeks of Daniel had already been fulfilled, we would now be literally living in the New Heavens and the New Earth WHEREIN DWELLETH RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Are you saying that you believe that immediately after the end of the 70th week:

~ there will be no more sin on the earth?
~ will be the time of the Great White Throne Judgment?

Just exactly when - in prophecy terms - does the end of the 70th week fall?
 

Poinsetta

Well-known member
Nov 24, 2018
10,648
6,220
113
34
#96
HELLO GUYS THE TRIBULATION IS HAPPENING NOW AS WE SPEAK? HERES A MINT I FOUND AT THE DOLLAR STORE.
 

GaryA

Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage
Aug 10, 2019
9,834
4,320
113
mywebsite.us
#97
2 PETER 3

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men...

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Do you realize that all of the details and events mentioned in the passage you have quoted take place in a frame of time that is 1000 years?

It refers to "the day of the Lord" in two ways:

~ 1000 years
~ the first day of that 1000 years

The 1000 years is the 1000-year reign of Christ on the earth. The first day of that 1000 years is the Return of Christ.
 

GaryA

Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage
Aug 10, 2019
9,834
4,320
113
mywebsite.us
#98
Just exactly when - in prophecy terms - does the end of the 70th week fall?
The answer is incredibly simple -- only the Wisdom of Men could/would ever complicate it...
 

GaryA

Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage
Aug 10, 2019
9,834
4,320
113
mywebsite.us
#99
Hello UnderGrace,

Consider this, KJV1611 would have you and others believe that the scripture that he quoted as being proof that Christ returned in 70 AD.
Did he really suggest that?

Are you sure he wasn't referring to the Lord's resurrection? (post #81)
 

GaryA

Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage
Aug 10, 2019
9,834
4,320
113
mywebsite.us
HELLO GUYS THE TRIBULATION IS HAPPENING NOW AS WE SPEAK? HERES A MINT I FOUND AT THE DOLLAR STORE.
A mint like you put in your mouth or a mint like a-whole-lot-of-money?

(I guess you mean the former - because, the latter would probably not likely be found at the dollar store.)