The Tribulation and the Church, WHEN?

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Jul 23, 2018
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well it doesnt say "every human on the planet takes the mark". not even pre-tribbers say what you say thats just weird space teachings you have no sense whtsoever.
Yes it does
"Every man woman and child,both free and bond"
I believe the word. Do you?
 
Jul 23, 2018
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I don't twist scriptures. That is just a knee-jerk reaction in response from you. I always provide the scripture to back up my teachings.

Tell me, do you see a difference between "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him" vs. "the day of the Lord?"

Did you notice Paul's change in reference to both? Obviously not.

So, you would believe and teach that the Lord puts His bride through His wrath first and then comes to get her afterwards, which would put the living church through the same punishment as the wicked. Is that what you're saying? Is it the nature of God to punish the righteous with the wicked?

As I stated before, after Paul gave a detailed outline of the resurrection of the dead and the living being changed and caught up in 1 Thess.4:13-18, he then said to "Comfort each other with those words." In writing to Titus, Paul refers to the living believers being changed and caught up as "The Blessed Hope." That said, if the church was to first go through the entire wrath of God, experiencing all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, then believers would have no reason to comfort each other, nor would it be a blessed hope. For according to you, believers would have to go through the most horrific time in the history of the world before the Lord fulfills His promise to come and get us. No thank you!

I believe in the Lord's promise to keep us out of the hour of God's wrath which He said is going to come upon the world to test those dwell upon the face of the whole earth .

And for those who think that God is going to protect the church during the time of His wrath, they believe this without taking into consideration severity and magnitude of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

In addition, Revelation 19:6-8 has the bride/church as being heaven at the wedding of the Lamb during the time of God's wrath on earth, where we will be receiving our fine linen, white and clean. Then in verse 14 the bride is said to be following the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses. So, if you want to continue to believe that the Lord would punish his church right along with the wicked, you can do that. But as for me, I know that the Lord is going to keep His promise and remove the church prior to the first seal being opened.

In support that the resurrected and caught up church will be coming from heaven with the Lord, we have Rev.17:14 stating the following:

"They (the beast and ten kings) will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.
"So, you would believe and teach that the Lord puts His bride through His wrath first and then comes to get her afterwards, which would put the living church through the same punishment as the wicked. Is that what you're saying? Is it the nature of God to punish the righteous with the wicked"
Yes,definitely

In fact He gave us Noah and Lot as prejudgement examples.
How can that possibly be misconstrued?
 
Jul 23, 2018
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well it doesnt say "every human on the planet takes the mark". not even pre-tribbers say what you say thats just weird space teachings you have no sense whtsoever.
I just saw your last sentence.
"The bible has no sense whatsoever"
Lol
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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And the woman believes in Jesus correct?
Good day iamsoandso,

The woman is unbelieving Israel, i.e. the nation Israel who did not and does not recognize Jesus as their Messiah. Out of the woman will come 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel who will acknowledge Jesus as Messiah, ergo, she gives birth to. The male child is caught up to God and His throne escaping from the dragon who is waiting to devour it. The woman/Israel flees out into the desert where she will be cared for by God for 1260 days, which is that last 3 1/2 years of the seven year period. At some time during this period unbelieving Israel will recognize Jesus as Messiah and say "blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord."

So, the short version is, currently the woman/Israel does not believe in Jesus, but she will later.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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"So, you would believe and teach that the Lord puts His bride through His wrath first and then comes to get her afterwards, which would put the living church through the same punishment as the wicked. Is that what you're saying? Is it the nature of God to punish the righteous with the wicked"
Yes,definitely

In fact He gave us Noah and Lot as prejudgement examples.
How can that possibly be misconstrued?
Hello Absolutely,

In your post above, are you saying that God is going to put the church through His wrath?

Noah and Lot were removed from God's punishment while remaining on the earth. However, the wrath that is coming via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and whatever the two witnesses bring will be a time of great tribulation that the world has ever seen, where the majority of the population is killed and all human government dismantled. Therefore, God is not going to leave the church on the earth and protect her in the midst of His wrath, but is going to fulfill His promise by coming to get us and remove us prior to His wrath.

Also, why would say "Yes, definitely" that God would punish the righteous with the wicked?

Am I misread your post?
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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In scripture there are only two women in prophecy, one is the virtuous pure woman which represents heavenly Jerusalem. The other woman is the harlot woman that gendereth to bondage and represents earthly Jerusalem.

Ahwatukee believes the woman in Rev 12 is the harlot.
No! No! Please don't put words in my mouth. The woman of Rev.12 is not the harlot and you will never find any post where I said that. It is by your own misunderstanding of the two women that you came to that conclusion.

Understand this, the woman of Rev.12 IS NOT the same woman who rides the beast in Rev.17. They are figuratively representing two completely different women.

The woman of Rev.12 represents Israel, while the woman of Rev.17 who rides the beast is that pagan religious system, that counterfeit church. That she is figuratively called a prostitute would infer that she is being disobedient to the Lord while claiming to be His true follower. The woman is that great city that ruled over the kings of the earth and which sits on seven hills/mountains. This is pointing us to Rome/Vatican and her pagan religious system of Roman Catholicism.

The woman of Revelation 12 = The nation Israel

The woman who rides the beast = Roman/Vatican and her pagan system of Roman Catholicism
 
Nov 23, 2013
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In what way are those two connected?
Ezekiel 8, 9, and 10 are about the destruction of the wicked people of Israel. The righteous were sealed in their foreheads and the rest were slaughtered.

It’s the same story as the book of Joel... the day of the Lord.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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In what way are those two connected?

They are not connected. The mark is natural unconverted mankind 666 the number of uncoverted mankind. . The mark of Cain the restless wanderer. No sabbath rest in the affections of this life .a punishment that he could not bear that Christ did bear. The buying and selling has to do with the gospel the seal on the foreheads to represent will.

The parable has all but been literalized taking away the unseen understanding as those who walk by sight seeking after literal signs

The last sign and wonder is long gone. We walk by faith the eternal not seen, not after signs and wonderments. No sign as a wonder (source of faith)

Luke 11:29 And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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There is no preparation.
They die in the gt.
It says "every human on the planet takes the mark"
Every human.

The believers left behind "overcome"....by the blood of the lamb and the word of their testimony...

And get this...."they loved not their lives unto death"
They die.
They all die or take the mark
The church is OVER. DONE. FINISHED
That is WHY angels preach the gospel mid trib.(no church exists on earth)
The angels preach AFTER the jews are gathered in rev 14
The 144k are first harvested jews. They are The first JEWS harvested AFTER the gentile bride. (That is WHY they are called firstfruits)
Firstfruits=harvest.
Those taken(raptured) in rev 14 are main harvested jews. (After firstfruits)

Nobody is touching this dynamic

Nobody
You heard it here first
Yes, the Pre-Trib Rapture is IMO one of the most supported doctrines in all of Scripture.
Only equaled by the reconstitution of Israel in the end times.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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Hello and good morning Ahwatukee,
Can you tell me when many came claiming to be Christ in Luke 21:8, if supposedly Luke 21:9-12 came immediately afterwards, which you believe occurred two thousand years ago?

It doesn't say "immediately." Here is the scripture"

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"He replied: “Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and, ‘The time is near.’ Do not follow them. 9When you hear of wars and uprisings, do not be frightened. These things must happen first, but the end will not come right away.”

10Then he said to them: “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11There will be great earthquakes, famines and pestilences in various places, and fearful events and great signs from heaven.

12“But before all this, they will seize you and persecute you. They will hand you over to synagogues and put you in prison, and you will be brought before kings and governors, and all on account of my name.
===============================================

Many claiming to be the Messiah, wars and rumors of wars, nation rising against nation, earthquakes, famines, disease, fear events in the heavens, etc.

Before all of this, i.e. before everything above takes place, they will seize you and persecute you. They will hand you over to synagogues and put you in prison, and you will be brought before kings and governors, and all on account of my name. This is exactly what happened to Peter, Paul and the apostles. "Before all this" does not give a time frame between verses 9 thru 11 and verse

The events of the first paragraph are future events which take place after the second paragraph, not immediately, but in the future. You are assuming immediacy.

Verse 12 = Fulfilled by Peter, Paul and other apostles

Verses 9 thru 11 = Future events


The Lord gives us many correlating events throughout the bible. We know that the 10 horned beast in Daniel 7 correlates with the 10 horned beast in Revelation 13. By putting these data together we have a clearer understanding of the situation.
Likewise, when the angel in Revelation 17:8 informs us that the beast shall rise from the bottomless pit which is in Revelation 9:2, we then recognize that the bottomless pit is another description for the sea from which the beast shall rise from in Rev 13.
These are not the only two books relating to the end times.
I understand that the word "Abussos" translated Abyss can refer to the depth of the sea. However, when taking into consideration the angel that smoke comes out of the Abyss when the angel opens it, this would be indicative of the opening being on the land and not the sea. To be clear, if the Abyss is under the sea smoke would not be able to billow out of it, but would dissipate in the sea water. It would be able to darken the sun and the sky.

However, whether you believe that the Abyss is referring to the depths of the ocean or to a shaft that opens up on the land that leads down into the earth, is not something to contend about. If you want to believe that the Abyss is referring to the depths of the sea, that is your prerogative. In support of the Abyss being a shaft opened on the land, I would offer the following:

"When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss. And out of the smoke locusts came down on the earth."

Nearly every book in the bible has data on the end times, of which Luke 21, Mark 13, and Matthew 24 are very clear in stating.
As such, when Luke 21:25-26 describes men's hearts failing them due to seeing chaos running rampant while earth's environment deteriorates, I then realize this event to correlate with that in Revelation 8.
As such, I then recognize all the data in Luke 21 to regard the end times, and not data spread across two millennia.
There will be groups of individuals calling for an end to the way industry is now destroying the earth, and all the injustices associated with it, who will be brought in before magistrates, so that they may be silenced.
This is how I see Luke 21:9-12.
Regarding "data being spread across two millennial" you need to understand that many times the order of events are not sequential. For example:

=====================================
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
=====================================

In the scripture above, Paul first mentions that Christ is the first fruits of the resurrection, with those who belong to Him to follow, however not immediately. Two thousand years will have passed by before that happens. Then in verse 24 it states that "the end will come." According to your interpretation of the previous scriptures, Paul would be saying the end comes immediately after the resurrection of the those who belong to the Lord. It also states that the end will come when all the Lord's enemies are destroyed with the last enemy being death. That said, death isn't destroyed until after the millennial kingdom at the great white throne judgment when both death and Hades personified are thrown into the lake of fire, as revealed in Rev.20:14.

So, there are generalizations used and are not always referring to a chronological order.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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It says "every human on the planet takes the mark"
Every human.
The believers left behind "overcome"....by the blood of the lamb and the word of their testimony...
And get this...."they loved not their lives unto death"
They die.
They all die or take the mark
[…]
Nobody is touching this dynamic
[pre-tribber here :) ]

No. Not all trib saints will die.

I've listed (before), about 12 distinct references of "still-living/-alive" persons/saints at the time of His Second Coming to the earth (who will ENTER the earthly MK age in mortal bodies capable of bearing children/reproducing [this is BESIDES the "resurrected" saints (those saints who DIE in the trib); and besides the previously translated/changed/glorified/perfected "Church which is His body" having been "raptured" well before this point in the chronology])...

for one example, what do you do with Daniel 12:12, "BLESSED is he that waiteth, and cometh to the 1335 days." THIS is a "still-living" person/saint at the time of Christ's Second Coming to the earth; now entering the promised and prophesied earthly MK. (So is Matt25:31-34 and Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50 passages [Jesus addressing their later Q if Him in Matt24:3 is based on His ALREADY-having spoken to them about this in Matt13], among many, many others--as I said, I've listed 12 references to same, in the past)
 
Nov 23, 2013
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No! No! Please don't put words in my mouth. The woman of Rev.12 is not the harlot and you will never find any post where I said that. It is by your own misunderstanding of the two women that you came to that conclusion.

Understand this, the woman of Rev.12 IS NOT the same woman who rides the beast in Rev.17. They are figuratively representing two completely different women.

The woman of Rev.12 represents Israel, while the woman of Rev.17 who rides the beast is that pagan religious system, that counterfeit church. That she is figuratively called a prostitute would infer that she is being disobedient to the Lord while claiming to be His true follower. The woman is that great city that ruled over the kings of the earth and which sits on seven hills/mountains. This is pointing us to Rome/Vatican and her pagan religious system of Roman Catholicism.

The woman of Revelation 12 = The nation Israel

The woman who rides the beast = Roman/Vatican and her pagan system of Roman Catholicism
I think you're not understanding that earthly Jerusalem IS the harlot. The woman in Rev 12 IS NOT the harlot that God divorced for committing whoredoms.

Are you aware that earthly Jerusalem is a harlot?
 
Nov 23, 2013
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Good day iamsoandso,

The woman is unbelieving Israel, i.e. the nation Israel who did not and does not recognize Jesus as their Messiah. Out of the woman will come 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel who will acknowledge Jesus as Messiah, ergo, she gives birth to. The male child is caught up to God and His throne escaping from the dragon who is waiting to devour it. The woman/Israel flees out into the desert where she will be cared for by God for 1260 days, which is that last 3 1/2 years of the seven year period. At some time during this period unbelieving Israel will recognize Jesus as Messiah and say "blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord."

So, the short version is, currently the woman/Israel does not believe in Jesus, but she will later.
You're saying that the woman/Israel does not believe in Jesus right now but she will later. When will they believe in Jesus, before or after the sealing of the 144,000?
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
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Did you know that Jesus Christ is the Sun of righteousness?

Mal 4:2 (KJV) But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Yes, but Jesus as the sun of righteousness has nothing to do with the woman clothed with the sun, with moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelves stars. This would be a misapplication of scripture. Why go after Mal.4:2 when you have an exact match in Genesis 37:9-10? Mal.4:2 would be quite a stretch to link it to the woman of Rev.12.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
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I think you're not understanding that earthly Jerusalem IS the harlot. The woman in Rev 12 IS NOT the harlot that God divorced for committing whoredoms.

Are you aware that earthly Jerusalem is a harlot?
I already told you in the previous post that Jerusalem is not the harlot of Rev.17. They are figuratively two different woman. Why do you always go after the obscure and vague?
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,375
113
Hello and good morning Ahwatukee,
Can you tell me when many came claiming to be Christ in Luke 21:8, if supposedly Luke 21:9-12 came immediately afterwards, which you believe occurred two thousand years ago?

The Lord gives us many correlating events throughout the bible. We know that the 10 horned beast in Daniel 7 correlates with the 10 horned beast in Revelation 13. By putting these data together we have a clearer understanding of the situation.
Likewise, when the angel in Revelation 17:8 informs us that the beast shall rise from the bottomless pit which is in Revelation 9:2, we then recognize that the bottomless pit is another description for the sea from which the beast shall rise from in Rev 13.
These are not the only two books relating to the end times.
Nearly every book in the bible has data on the end times, of which Luke 21, Mark 13, and Matthew 24 are very clear in stating.
As such, when Luke 21:25-26 describes men's hearts failing them due to seeing chaos running rampant while earth's environment deteriorates, I then realize this event to correlate with that in Revelation 8.
As such, I then recognize all the data in Luke 21 to regard the end times, and not data spread across two millennia.
There will be groups of individuals calling for an end to the way industry is now destroying the earth, and all the injustices associated with it, who will be brought in before magistrates, so that they may be silenced.
This is how I see Luke 21:9-12.
Louis, instead of repeating the same things that I have already responded to, please address the answers that I have given, instead of ignoring them. As I said, after the Abyss is opened the come down upon the land, which is where the shaft to the Abyss is located.

If those things are what you believe, then you can believe that. I have already told you what I believe and why.
 
Nov 23, 2013
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Yes, but Jesus as the sun of righteousness has nothing to do with the woman clothed with the sun, with moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelves stars. This would be a misapplication of scripture. Why go after Mal.4:2 when you have an exact match in Genesis 37:9-10? Mal.4:2 would be quite a stretch to link it to the woman of Rev.12.
All believers are clothed with the righteousness of Christ - the Sun.
Why do you think Christ being he woman's covering is a misapplication of scripture?
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
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Iasas,who do you say the woman is?
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/11.htm

In Rev.11:1 a temple is measured. In Revelation 11;19 the temple of God "in heaven is opened". Then in Revelation 12:1 and Rev.12:3 the vision/sign seen is "in heaven". The woman is the temple of God in Revelation 11:19. In Revelation 12:11 and 12:17 the woman believes in Jesus and has his testimony (not unbelievers). In Revelation 12:17 it ends with, "...on the sands of the sea..." (it goes with ch.13),,,(Rev. 11:19 is the beginning of Rev.12 ect.).
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
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You're saying that the woman/Israel does not believe in Jesus right now but she will later. When will they believe in Jesus, before or after the sealing of the 144,000?
The woman/Israel will believe sometime during the last 3 1/2 years, while the sealing of the 144,000 takes place towards the beginning of the first 3 1/2 years