Trinity haters on CC

[UnitedWithChrist]

obviously biblical yet some of these statements are very contradicting to the bible.

the Most High is three yet the bible says He is one.

Jesus is the Most High and man. this would mean the Most High is a man, which He says He is not (two or three times) and it would also mean every man is the Most High, i dont think i am the creator of the heavens and the earth.

non trins are cultust if they do not bow down and acknowledge these three persons, just curious where this command is in scripture?



this is an odd one, brought into union with Jesus yet the trinity family says the Father, Son and Spirit make up that family so unless you feel you are one more person in the trinity you are left on the outside looking in.

God is one in terms of Being or Essence, yet three in terms of Person.

There is no contradiction.

The Father is YHVH, the Son is YHVH, and the Holy Spirit is YHVH.

Jesus possesses two natures, being both God and man.

I didn't say that those who don't understand the Trinity are cultists, but those who openly defy the doctrine of the Trinity are not believers. They don't worship the same God. Very typically, though, it is cultists that push an anti-Trinitarian doctrine, because they do not stop at redefining God; they continue to claim that other aspects of Christianity are in error.

Often their rebellion includes a denunciation of the Council of Nicea, the Roman Catholic Church, and Constantine. This is all part of the anti-Trinitarian, cultic spiel. Just about every cultist parrots the same party line.

I don't apply the word "family" to the Trinity. While it is true that the Father and Son have a filial relationship, I do not use this language as it has cultic overtones. Additionally, the Holy Spirit doesn't fit into this "family" claim. The phrase smacks of Mormonism or Herbert Armstrong's Worldwide Church of God nonsense.

My preference is to accentuate that God is, by his very nature, relational (Father, Son, Holy Spirit love one another) and that explains why he is love by NATURE. Humans are to mirror God in terms of his relational nature within their families and within society in general. A "lone ranger" Christian cannot properly mirror God, as more than one person is required to mirror this relational aspect of God.

For those who are interested, I recommend two different books with similar titles, Delighting in the Trinity by Tim Chester, and Delighting in the Trinity by Michael Reeves. These books would go a long ways toward addressing cultic, anti-Trinitarian teachings.

Understanding our Triune God indeed makes sense of the importance of this doctrine.

 

[jaybird88]

God is one in terms of Being or Essence, yet three in terms of Person.

There is no contradiction.

the contradiction comes comes from the bible saying the Most High is one.

The Father is YHVH, the Son is YHVH, and the Holy Spirit is YHVH.

Jesus possesses two natures, being both God and man.

you think you are the Almighty?

I didn't say that those who don't understand the Trinity are cultists, but those who openly defy the doctrine of the Trinity are not believers. They don't worship the same God. Very typically, though, it is cultists that push an anti-Trinitarian doctrine, because they do not stop at redefining God; they continue to claim that other aspects of Christianity are in error.

and the bible says they are non believers where?

Often their rebellion includes a denunciation of the Council of Nicea, the Roman Catholic Church, and Constantine. This is all part of the anti-Trinitarian, cultic spiel. Just about every cultist parrots the same party line.

when people point out that Constantine was a sun worshiper, had his own son killed and wife boiled alive, this makes them "rebellious" ? ironic when scripture instructs us to test all things.
i dont remember any non trins "rebelling" against anything, all i remember reading of them is the massive persecution against them, thousand upon thousands burned alive for not accepting, sometimes entire villages burned to the ground. when Jesus and the 12 went out and preached did they have to burn people alive to make them accept their teachings?

I don't apply the word "family" to the Trinity. While it is true that the Father and Son have a filial relationship, I do not use this language as it has cultic overtones. Additionally, the Holy Spirit doesn't fit into this "family" claim. The phrase smacks of Mormonism or Herbert Armstrong's Worldwide Church of God nonsense.

forget i used the word family, you can pick out whichever word you like, it makes little difference as it will never change the end result, you will always be on the outside looking in.

another thing i never understood, the trinity has been one of the biggest debates ever, yet you dont find this debate in the days of Jesus and the 12, not once did a scribe test Jesus on this subject and they were always testing Him.

 

[jaybird88]

just so everyone knows my position. i have never been "anti" trinity. i would never try and teach someone its a false belief, and i would never in a million years accuse someone of being in some dark occult devil worship group just because they were trins. IMO its not taught plainly in scripture and difficult to make sense of so i dont understand why its a "must believe" doctrine. believing Jesus is the Christ, thats a "must believe", the bible even says that.

 

[PennEd]

just so everyone knows my position. i have never been "anti" trinity. i would never try and teach someone its a false belief, and i would never in a million years accuse someone of being in some dark occult devil worship group just because they were trins. IMO its not taught plainly in scripture and difficult to make sense of so i dont understand why its a "must believe" doctrine. believing Jesus is the Christ, thats a "must believe", the bible even says that.

Believing Jesus is God in the flesh is “must believe “. Denying that disqualifies someone being a Christian

 

[jaybird88]

Believing Jesus is God in the flesh is “must believe “. Denying that disqualifies someone being a Christian

Who told you that? There is no such command anywhere in scripture.

 

[gb9]

Who told you that? There is no such command anywhere in scripture.

most of you judeaizers deny the Trinity so you can push the Father's words to Moses above the words in Red.

some of you hard core judeaizers deny that Christ was fully God and fully man.

and, of course , you all push the lie of Sabbath for salvation.

so many lies, so many lies....

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

the contradiction comes comes from the bible saying the Most High is one.



you think you are the Almighty?



and the bible says they are non believers where?


when people point out that Constantine was a sun worshiper, had his own son killed and wife boiled alive, this makes them "rebellious" ? ironic when scripture instructs us to test all things.
i dont remember any non trins "rebelling" against anything, all i remember reading of them is the massive persecution against them, thousand upon thousands burned alive for not accepting, sometimes entire villages burned to the ground. when Jesus and the 12 went out and preached did they have to burn people alive to make them accept their teachings?


forget i used the word family, you can pick out whichever word you like, it makes little difference as it will never change the end result, you will always be on the outside looking in.

another thing i never understood, the trinity has been one of the biggest debates ever, yet you dont find this debate in the days of Jesus and the 12, not once did a scribe test Jesus on this subject and they were always testing Him.

I won't bother addressing most of your claims, but I will address this:

The "Most High" is YHVH. It is easy to discover this, if you read the Scriptures associated with this phrase.

Both Jesus and the Father are easily identified as YHVH. "Forgotten Trinity" by James White would provide the Scriptures to do this.

There is no "lesser god" who is named Jesus. Jesus is YHVH. The Father is YHVH. The Spirit is another Advocate, like Jesus, but not Jesus, therefore He is YHVH too. Read John 14-17 in this regard.

Additionally, there are several prophecies in the NT from the OT that are talking about Jesus, and when these references are traced down, it is easy to prove that Jesus is YHVH.

If any newer believer needs help in locating these Scriptures, I'd be glad to share the reasoning....however I would suggest Delighting in the Trinity by Tim Chester and Delighting in the Trinity by Michael Reeves, in that order (I wish they had used different titles). Both are excellent and fairly simply written.

The Trinity is a fantastic doctrine that makes sense of the entirety of Scripture. Other than the doctrine of union with Christ, it is my favorite doctrine of Christianity. It is sad that anti-Trinitarians have locked themselves out of understanding Christianity at any meaningful level. For instance, understanding the Trinity shows that God is love by nature, because he has been a relational being since eternity....the three Persons of the one God are a community within Himself.

 

[jaybird88]

most of you judeaizers deny the Trinity so you can push the Father's words to Moses above the words in Red.

some of you hard core judeaizers deny that Christ was fully God and fully man.

and, of course , you all push the lie of Sabbath for salvation.

so many lies, so many lies....

What are you talking about?

 

[jaybird88]

I won't bother addressing most of your claims, but I will address this:

The "Most High" is YHVH. It is easy to discover this, if you read the Scriptures associated with this phrase.

Both Jesus and the Father are easily identified as YHVH. "Forgotten Trinity" by James White would provide the Scriptures to do this.

There is no "lesser god" who is named Jesus. Jesus is YHVH. The Father is YHVH. The Spirit is another Advocate, like Jesus, but not Jesus, therefore He is YHVH too. Read John 14-17 in this regard.

Additionally, there are several prophecies in the NT from the OT that are talking about Jesus, and when these references are traced down, it is easy to prove that Jesus is YHVH.

If any newer believer needs help in locating these Scriptures, I'd be glad to share the reasoning....however I would suggest Delighting in the Trinity by Tim Chester and Delighting in the Trinity by Michael Reeves, in that order (I wish they had used different titles). Both are excellent and fairly simply written.

The Trinity is a fantastic doctrine that makes sense of the entirety of Scripture. Other than the doctrine of union with Christ, it is my favorite doctrine of Christianity. It is sad that anti-Trinitarians have locked themselves out of understanding Christianity at any meaningful level. For instance, understanding the Trinity shows that God is love by nature, because he has been a relational being since eternity....the three Persons of the one God are a community within Himself.

I understand why you would not want to address these things. I think this is why many churches don't bring up the Trinity, they don't want to deal with all the questions that can not be answered.

 

[gb9]

What are you talking about?

so, have you changed your beliefs? is the Sabbath not required for salvation by faith in Christ?

 

[gb9]

I understand why you would not want to address these things. I think this is why many churches don't bring up the Trinity, they don't want to deal with all the questions that can not be answered.

here is the answer- the Trinity is not a roman invention, Christ told us about when He said I ( 1) will pray the Father ( 2), and He will send the Helper ( 3).
so, there you go.
I mean. did Jesus say " I will pray to Myself and send Myself..".

no, stop disbelieving and mocking Christ by trying to say that constintine invented the Trinity that Christ confirmed.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

I understand why you would not want to address these things. I think this is why many churches don't bring up the Trinity, they don't want to deal with all the questions that can not be answered.

No, the reason is because those questions have been answered in the past, and I am aware of your history of denying the Trinity. Therefore my explanations wouldn't be received. Jesus said not to cast pearls before swine.

However, regarding the events of history you mentioned, one needs to understand that the Nicene Christians viewed themselves as bringing the Kingdom of God into reality, and therefore they dealt harshly with Judaizers and anti-Trinitarians.

They were acting in light of their postmillennial theology. Church history is full of such persecutions.

And, by the way, are you aware of the evil acts of Arians? Since your theology seems to be in line with Arianism, are you willing to take responsibility for the actions of Arians in history?

Or, if you are a Unitarian, are you willing to take responsibility for the atrocities of other Unitarians like Muslims?

If you are unwilling to take responsibility for others who hold your view of denying the Trinity, why are you attempting to disparage Trinitarians for the actions of other Trinitarians centuries ago?

You are a man of double standards. A man with double standards applies one set of standards to others, and another to others.

As a former member of an anti-Trinitarian cult, I am well-aware of this tendency amongst cultists. They apply one set of standards to others, and fail to apply the same standard to others.

What does the Bible call such individuals? Hypocrites, Pharisees?

 

[mailmandan]

Believing Jesus is God in the flesh is “must believe “. Denying that disqualifies someone being a Christian

How someone can claim to be a Christian and yet believe in a Savior who is "less-than" God in essence/nature is beyond me. (John 1:1-1, 14; 10:30-33) These Jews here in John 10:31-33 were ready to stone Jesus for blasphemy. They could not accept the fact that Jesus is God either. Should we refer to them as Christians as well?

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

No, the reason is because those questions have been answered in the past, and I am aware of your history of denying the Trinity. Therefore my explanations wouldn't be received. Jesus said not to cast pearls before swine.

However, regarding the events of history you mentioned, one needs to understand that the Nicene Christians viewed themselves as bringing the Kingdom of God into reality, and therefore they dealt harshly with Judaizers and anti-Trinitarians.

They were acting in light of their postmillennial theology. Church history is full of such persecutions.

And, by the way, are you aware of the evil acts of Arians? Since your theology seems to be in line with Arianism, are you willing to take responsibility for the actions of Arians in history?

Or, if you are a Unitarian, are you willing to take responsibility for the atrocities of other Unitarians like Muslims?

If you are unwilling to take responsibility for others who hold your view of denying the Trinity, why are you attempting to disparage Trinitarians for the actions of other Trinitarians centuries ago?

You are a man of double standards. A man with double standards applies one set of standards to others, and another to others.

As a former member of an anti-Trinitarian cult, I am well-aware of this tendency amongst cultists. They apply one set of standards to others, and fail to apply the same standard to others.

What does the Bible call such individuals? Hypocrites, Pharisees?

By the way, folks, when dealing with people who hold aberrant theologies, who slander Christianity, I would highly recommend understanding their basic argument, and applying the measure they are applying to Christians to themselves. If you think about their essential argument long enough, you will likely see how they are applying a double standard. In their minds, they are the standard and you are the aberration. This is an important tactic in dealing with those holding false doctrines, especially when they begin criticizing evangelical Christianity.

And, their claims convince some people due to ignorance of church history. I recommend reading 2000 Years of Church History by Nick Needham, particularly the first two volumes if you are concerned with Constantine and the Council of Nicea, and the behavior of Arians after the Council of Nicea. They conducted their own persecutions of Nicene Christians after Nicea. Those who use Constantine and Nicea to portray themselves as the innocent, persecuted pacifists are delusional.

 

[Noose]

By the way, folks, when dealing with people who hold aberrant theologies, who slander Christianity, I would highly recommend understanding their basic argument, and applying the measure they are applying to Christians to themselves. If you think about their essential argument long enough, you will likely see how they are applying a double standard. In their minds, they are the standard and you are the aberration. This is an important tactic in dealing with those holding false doctrines, especially when they begin criticizing evangelical Christianity.

Hardly. I don't consider myself a standard that i use to measure you with and i don't judge you for believing something that men have proposed based on their understanding. But i would like to know:

Is Jesus one person, one being and one God by Himself?

 

[Rosemaryx]

Hardly. I don't consider myself a standard that i use to measure you with and i don't judge you for believing something that men have proposed based on their understanding. But i would like to know:

Is Jesus one person, one being and one God by Himself?

John 1:1
In the beginning was the word ,
and the word was with God
and the word was God
...xox...

 

[gb9]

Hardly. I don't consider myself a standard that i use to measure you with and i don't judge you for believing something that men have proposed based on their understanding. But i would like to know:

Is Jesus one person, one being and one God by Himself?

Jesus was fully God and fully man while on earth.

the man Jesus was tired and sleeping in a boat. when a storm came, Jesus as God said " peace, be still", and there was a great calm.

so, there is your answer.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Hardly. I don't consider myself a standard that i use to measure you with and i don't judge you for believing something that men have proposed based on their understanding. But i would like to know:

Is Jesus one person, one being and one God by Himself?

The Trinity doctrine:

God (YHVH) is one in terms of Essence, and three in terms of Persons.

The Father is YHVH. The Son (Jesus) is YHVH. The Holy Spirit is YHVH.

There is a distinction in terms of Persons, but there is only one God in terms of Being. God is a multi-personal Being.

Jesus has two natures, God and glorified man. He is truly God, and truly Man. As glorified man, he is the beginning of the New Creation. However, YHVH never changed at any point of time.

Does that answer your question? I suspect your issue relates to either the Trinity or the nature of the incarnation, so I have defined the relationships as carefully as I can in order to avoid any misunderstandings.

Jesus is not a separate being from the Father, in terms of his deity, if that is what you are asking. The Father and the Son are One in terms of essence. He is not a separate God being; that would be polytheism. Christians are monotheists.

That is why the "one God" part of the definition is important.

The Trinity doctrine is the only way that all of Scripture's claims about God's nature can be reconciled.

 

[Noose]

The Trinity doctrine:

God (YHVH) is one in terms of Essence, and three in terms of Persons.

The Father is YHVH. The Son (Jesus) is YHVH. The Holy Spirit is YHVH.

There is a distinction in terms of Persons, but there is only one God in terms of Being. God is a multi-personal Being.

Jesus has two natures, God and glorified man. He is truly God, and truly Man. As glorified man, he is the beginning of the New Creation. However, YHVH never changed at any point of time.

Does that answer your question? I suspect your issue relates to either the Trinity or the nature of the incarnation, so I have defined the relationships as carefully as I can in order to avoid any misunderstandings.

Jesus is not a separate being from the Father, in terms of his deity, if that is what you are asking. The Father and the Son are One in terms of essence. He is not a separate God being; that would be polytheism. Christians are monotheists.

That is why the "one God" part of the definition is important.

Q. Is Jesus one person and one God by Himself?

a) YES
b) NO

 

[Noose]

Jesus was fully God and fully man while on earth.

the man Jesus was tired and sleeping in a boat. when a storm came, Jesus as God said " peace, be still", and there was a great calm.

so, there is your answer.

Q. Is Jesus one person and one God by Himself?

a) YES
b) NO