Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

[Noose]

Am I to understand your statement, But we are not yet saved until we are saved-, as to mean until we are dead and then judged?
If I am mistaken please explain.

This short statement is self explanatory i believe.

Matt 24:13But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.

As much as salvation/eternal life is an assured thing even now (Meaning it is there within our grasp today), we have to abide by it.

John 15:4Remain in Me, and I will remain inyou. Just as no branch can bear fruit by itselfunless it remains in the vine, neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in Me.

 

[dcontroversal]

Hello,

I believe you've gotten the interpretation of those verses terribly wrong, my friend.

"if we deny him, he will also deny us."

The above is the gist.

"if we are faithless, he remains faithful".

The above is where you interpreted it wrongly. God cannot be held at ransom. If you renounce your Christian faith, he will faithfully deny you as well, for God cannot lie. That is what it means.

Only in your mind pal........!

 

[dcontroversal]

Am I to understand your statement, But we are not yet saved until we are saved-, as to mean until we are dead and then judged?
If I am mistaken please explain.

No, you got it right......what you think is exactly what he peddles.....NO one is saved until the END regardless of the fact the bible speaks of salvation in the PRESENT context....but hey.....who cares what the ward has to say hey!!

 

[dcontroversal]

This is a pure works doctrine, and a false Gospel.
And I am surprised Chester agreed with this.
We DO NOT help God save us..

No big surprise....he peddles a salvation that can be forfeit by man....

 

[PennEd]

No big surprise....he peddles a salvation that can be forfeit by man....

I understand that, but this post is different that he agreed with. It said WE have to DO our part in the bargain. That it takes us both, man and God, to make the covenant. I thought he trusted in Christ ALONE.

Chester, it is one thing to THINK you can lose your salvation. It is entirely ANOTHER to think YOU help Jesus in ANY way to save you to begin with! That is a whole other heresy altogether. Also, you KNOW you are on shaky ground if you are in agreement with Waggles. I can't even chronicle all the false gospels he spreads.

 

[dcontroversal]

I understand that, but this post is different that he agreed with. It said WE have to DO our part in the bargain. That it takes us both, man and God, to make the covenant. I thought he trusted in Christ ALONE.

Chester, it is one thing to THINK you can lose your salvation. It is entirely ANOTHER to think YOU help Jesus in ANY way to save you to begin with! That is a whole other heresy altogether. Also, you KNOW you are on shaky ground if you are in agreement with Waggles. I can't even chronicle all the false gospels he spreads.

Brother you got that right....^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[SoulWeaver]

I now believe the OP is a troll.

 

[Whispered]

This short statement is self explanatory i believe.

Matt 24:13But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.

As much as salvation/eternal life is an assured thing even now (Meaning it is there within our grasp today), we have to abide by it.

John 15:4Remain in Me, and I will remain inyou. Just as no branch can bear fruit by itselfunless it remains in the vine, neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in Me.

What of these?
The Book of John chapter 6 verse 39, "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day."
The Book of John chapter 6 verse 44, "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."
The Book of John chapter 6 verse 54, "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.""

 

[Gregoryp]

I believe the Bible is clear enough on this issue.

"If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us" 2 Timothy 2:12 KJV

What part of this Verse do you not understand? I myself am 100 %ly sure that salvation loss is possible.

Oh it is. A perfect example is the long couple who go to a mega church. Worship and praise God, then went to the city for a vacation, did a few lines of cocaine, wild parties, gambling, so drunk she said she couldnt remember the previous evening. Then they turn up at Church Sunday worshipping God. If they carry on like that, then salvation is lost.

 

[Lightskin]

unscriptural and non-Biblical
That is OSAS delusion
Read your NT plenty of warnings about losing one's salvation
God is true and ever faithful, but human beings are fickle and many do not run the race to get the prize.
as scripture says to him who is victorious - and not all are for many do fall away

Romans 11 specifically stated that God’s gifts are irrevocable. Rest easy and know God will never let you go.

 

[Waggles]

Rest easy and know God will never let you go.

I do indeed ... but it is peoples who have "faith" that is not irrevocable.
It is believers who fail. Who throw in the towel. Who stop praying and seeking. etc. etc.
OSAS confuses the scriptures about God and his love and applies such to those who call themselves disciples.
The NT is filled with numerous warnings not to stray, not to believe another gospel, not to lose faith, not to sully one's testimony.
And Jesus in the seven letters to the seven churches in Revelation also makes it patently clear that the saints can be cast away.
In the gospels Jesus warns disciples that just being a disciple is not sufficient - one must keep Jesus' commandments and abide
in the word of God. Jesus clearly informs us that not all disciples (believers) shall enter the Kingdom of God.
OSAS is delusional and a sop to appease 10,000 gospels and doctrines that are not obedient to the word of God.

 

[dcontroversal]

I do indeed ... but it is peoples who have "faith" that is not irrevocable.

Then your view makes JESUS into an inept liar that cannot keep his word.

What do the words FINISH and COMPLETE MEAN?

MY BIBLE states clearly that....

1. JESUS begins the work of FAITH IN US <---SAVED
2. JESUS FINISHES the work of FAITH in US <---Still saved
3. JESUS COMPLETES the work of FAITH in US <---DONE DEAL

MAN CANNOT LOSE that WHICH HE STARTS, FINISHES, and COMPLETES

You salvation losers are going to pay for your insolence and total devaluation of JESUS and HIS work of FAITH.

 

[Noose]

What of these?
The Book of John chapter 6 verse 39, "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day."
The Book of John chapter 6 verse 44, "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."
The Book of John chapter 6 verse 54, "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.""

These statements by Jesus are true, He declares the end from the beginning and so has the right to say so. For the rest of us, we have to work out our own salvation in fear and trembling so that the promise holds. The end result is true to Him, those that will stand saved are the ones that the Father had drawn to Him, you can't appoint yourself among those. Paul did not appoint himself among those:

1 Cor 9:26Therefore I do not run aimlessly; I do not fight like I am beating the air. 27No, I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

 

[Noose]

1. Salvation has been described in three tenses
- we are Saved
- we are Being saved
- We shall be saved
So argument from tenses means nothing. You don't get to choose which tenses fits your doctrine best, rather reconcile everything. If you don't, then you can not withstand knock out punches like:

Rom 13:11 And do this, understanding the present time: The hour has already come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed.

Rom 8: 24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

2. You don't choose your favorite words and make a doctrine out of them.
Yes it is true, Jesus starts, finishes and completes the work in those that are saved (end of a process). You don't appoint yourself among them because of your belief. Those words will stand true at the end, only to those that abide in Him (Christ). At the very end when they stand victorious, those words (starts, finishes, completes) shall come true to them, for now, they remain a promise.

3. Judgement day demonstration by Jesus in Matthew 25 doesn't give hope to eternal security doctrine. It destroys it.

Matt 25:
31“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, ....33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
......
37“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

The surprise in this people(sheep) shows something else apart from the belief in eternal security. If they believed in eternal security, why should they be surprised that they made it? The surprise on the goats however, shows disappointment. A disappointment that comes when you think something is when it is not.

 

[Waggles]

1 “To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: ‘The words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand, who walks among the
seven golden lampstands.
5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and
remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.
Revelation 2:

 

[Waggles]

45 But if that servant says to himself, ‘My master is delayed in coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat
and drink and get drunk,
46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in
pieces and put him with the unfaithful.
Luke 12:

 

[Waggles]

18 This charge I entrust to you, Timothy, my child, in accordance with the prophecies previously made about you, that by them you
may wage the good warfare,
19 holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting this, some have made shipwreck of their faith,
1Timothy 1:

 

[Chester]

I understand that, but this post is different that he agreed with. It said WE have to DO our part in the bargain. That it takes us both, man and God, to make the covenant. I thought he trusted in Christ ALONE.

Chester, it is one thing to THINK you can lose your salvation. It is entirely ANOTHER to think YOU help Jesus in ANY way to save you to begin with! That is a whole other heresy altogether. Also, you KNOW you are on shaky ground if you are in agreement with Waggles. I can't even chronicle all the false gospels he spreads.

No big surprise....he peddles a salvation that can be forfeit by man....

Ah, ah, what a mixup! You guys think you have pegged what I believe, and to a certain extent you do - except for your own slant of it!

I am not around as much, so I don't know what everyone else around here believes - on post #2673 Waggles quoted several verses only, and I thought he was trying to peddle OSAS with a verse that clearly did not teach OSAS. So I wrote a response, and someone thought I was agreeing with him!! ???

On post #2670 I agreed with some of what "Infidelimam" wrote, but you are right, Penned, I missed the part about the covenant - . . . But at that point my main interest was trying to find out who this new person was and welcome him to CC rather than get him upset with a doctrinal dispute. But I don't think he has been back yet since then (yesterday morning)!

 

[Whispered]

These statements by Jesus are true, He declares the end from the beginning and so has the right to say so. For the rest of us, we have to work out our own salvation in fear and trembling so that the promise holds. The end result is true to Him, those that will stand saved are the ones that the Father had drawn to Him, you can't appoint yourself among those. Paul did not appoint himself among those:

1 Cor 9:26Therefore I do not run aimlessly; I do not fight like I am beating the air. 27No, I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

John 3:16 itself renounces such an idea as that one has to work to hold their Salvation.
I disagree 100%. Imagine we have to work so that our Salvation "holds", as you put it.
When we could not work to become saved prior to Christ's death on the cross, now after that sacrifice we're suppose to have faith and work and hope and tremble with fear that it may not "hold".
That's not in scripture in the least.
Jesus made it a very simple matter when he was asked what one must do to have eternal life. Which is a great opportunity to reiterate Jesus having upheld the importance of the ten commands in his response.
The Rich Young Man
(Mark 10:17-31; Luke 18:18-30)
16Just then, a man came up to Jesus and inquired, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to obtain eternal life?”
17“Why do you ask Me about what is good?” Jesus replied, “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”
18“Which ones?” the man asked.
Jesus answered, “‘Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not bear false witness, 19 honor your father and mother, and love your neighbor as yourself.’d ”
20“All these I have kept,” said the young man. “What do I still lack?”....

 

[PennEd]

Ah, ah, what a mixup! You guys think you have pegged what I believe, and to a certain extent you do - except for your own slant of it!

I am not around as much, so I don't know what everyone else around here believes - on post #2673 Waggles quoted several verses only, and I thought he was trying to peddle OSAS with a verse that clearly did not teach OSAS. So I wrote a response, and someone thought I was agreeing with him!! ???

On post #2670 I agreed with some of what "Infidelimam" wrote, but you are right, Penned, I missed the part about the covenant - . . . But at that point my main interest was trying to find out who this new person was and welcome him to CC rather than get him upset with a doctrinal dispute. But I don't think he has been back yet since then (yesterday morning)!

Not at all looking for a gotcha Chester. Was concerned you did agree with his post saying man has to do his part to help God.

I understand what you are saying about wanting to welcome him. Sorry about the mixup.













BUT... We ARE eternally (that means forever) secure, because we trust in Jesus, the Author AND finisher of our faith. And He will not fail!