So, you do not believe Jesus meant anything by His words saying, "I HAVE YET MANY THINGS TO SAY unto you, but ye cannot bear them now" and then goes on to speak of the Holy Spirit and how He will "receive of mine, and shall declare/disclose it unto you..." "... and will declare/disclose to you the things coming"... (I see this as being what 1Cor2:9-10 refers to, but also v.16b [i.e. what we have spelled out in our written scriptures following His resurrection/exaltation event... i.e. the epistles, etc].) Again, I believe the phrase "apostles and prophets" (written together like that) always refer to the NT apostles AND PROPHETS.
THE CALLING OUT OF THE BRIDE, to go to The Wedding of the Lamb
- Thread starter VCO
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
So, you do not believe Jesus meant anything by His words saying, "I HAVE YET MANY THINGS TO SAY unto you, but ye cannot bear them now" and then goes on to speak of the Holy Spirit and how He will "receive of mine, and shall declare/disclose it unto you..." "... and will declare/disclose to you the things coming"... (I see this as being what 1Cor2:9-10 refers to, but also v.16b [i.e. what we have spelled out in our written scriptures following His resurrection/exaltation event... i.e. the epistles, etc].) Again, I believe the phrase "apostles and prophets" (written together like that) always refer to the NT apostles AND PROPHETS.
I have mentioned in past posts regarding this.
I do not believe Daniel 12:1-4,10 speak of a bodily/physical resurrection from the dead (like v.13 IS referring to), but parallels [instead] Ezekiel 37:12-14,20-23 [the 'dry bones' prophecy], Hosea 5:15-6:3, Romans 11:15[25], Isaiah 26:16-21, John 6:39 [distinct from v.40!], Micah 5:3 [distinct from v.2!], etc... ALL re: ISRAEL'S "FUTURE" (and not "after they DIE physically--NOTE what they go on to do in Dan12:1-4,10 (a mid-trib/2nd half of trib context) and also note the "put my sprit in you" in the Ezek37 context (this is NOT "after" they have died physically!).
I've also mentioned how I believe that what happened in Matt27 (re: "many") is a small snapshot of what will FUTURELY take place (just like I've pointed out that the "Transfiguration," for example, is a snapshot of "His Second Coming glory" [tho the circumstances actually took place at that time with those few disciples]), so perhaps you could better equate it with the "Isaiah 27:12-13/Matthew 24:29-31" thing that will take place at His Second Coming to the earth time-slot (where Isa27:12-13 is saying [at the "GREAT trumpet"] ..."[gathered] to worship the Lord in the holy mount AT JERUSALEM").
I do not believe Daniel 12:1-4,10 speak of a bodily/physical resurrection from the dead (like v.13 IS referring to), but parallels [instead] Ezekiel 37:12-14,20-23 [the 'dry bones' prophecy], Hosea 5:15-6:3, Romans 11:15[25], Isaiah 26:16-21, John 6:39 [distinct from v.40!], Micah 5:3 [distinct from v.2!], etc... ALL re: ISRAEL'S "FUTURE" (and not "after they DIE physically--NOTE what they go on to do in Dan12:1-4,10 (a mid-trib/2nd half of trib context) and also note the "put my sprit in you" in the Ezek37 context (this is NOT "after" they have died physically!).
I've also mentioned how I believe that what happened in Matt27 (re: "many") is a small snapshot of what will FUTURELY take place (just like I've pointed out that the "Transfiguration," for example, is a snapshot of "His Second Coming glory" [tho the circumstances actually took place at that time with those few disciples]), so perhaps you could better equate it with the "Isaiah 27:12-13/Matthew 24:29-31" thing that will take place at His Second Coming to the earth time-slot (where Isa27:12-13 is saying [at the "GREAT trumpet"] ..."[gathered] to worship the Lord in the holy mount AT JERUSALEM").
Luk 16:16 (KJV) The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
In English that verse means that the law and the prophets were until John. After John, the kingdom of God was preached.... that’s what Matthew Mark, Luke, John and Paul did, preached the gospel and the kingdom.
I don’t see how that could be read any differently.
In English that verse means that the law and the prophets were until John. After John, the kingdom of God was preached.... that’s what Matthew Mark, Luke, John and Paul did, preached the gospel and the kingdom.
I don’t see how that could be read any differently.
-
1
- Show all
I have mentioned in past posts regarding this.
I do not believe Daniel 12:1-4,10 speak of a bodily/physical resurrection from the dead (like v.13 IS referring to), but parallels [instead] Ezekiel 37:12-14,20-23 [the 'dry bones' prophecy], Hosea 5:15-6:3, Romans 11:15[25], Isaiah 26:16-21, John 6:39 [distinct from v.40!], Micah 5:3 [distinct from v.2!], etc... ALL re: ISRAEL'S "FUTURE" (and not "after they DIE physically--NOTE what they go on to do in Dan12:1-4,10 (a mid-trib/2nd half of trib context) and also note the "put my sprit in you" in the Ezek37 context (this is NOT "after" they have died physically!).
I've also mentioned how I believe that what happened in Matt27 (re: "many") is a small snapshot of what will FUTURELY take place (just like I've pointed out that the "Transfiguration," for example, is a snapshot of "His Second Coming glory" [tho the circumstances actually took place at that time with those few disciples]), so perhaps you could better equate it with the "Isaiah 27:12-13/Matthew 24:29-31" thing that will take place at His Second Coming to the earth time-slot (where Isa27:12-13 is saying [at the "GREAT trumpet"] ..."[gathered] to worship the Lord in the holy mount AT JERUSALEM").
I do not believe Daniel 12:1-4,10 speak of a bodily/physical resurrection from the dead (like v.13 IS referring to), but parallels [instead] Ezekiel 37:12-14,20-23 [the 'dry bones' prophecy], Hosea 5:15-6:3, Romans 11:15[25], Isaiah 26:16-21, John 6:39 [distinct from v.40!], Micah 5:3 [distinct from v.2!], etc... ALL re: ISRAEL'S "FUTURE" (and not "after they DIE physically--NOTE what they go on to do in Dan12:1-4,10 (a mid-trib/2nd half of trib context) and also note the "put my sprit in you" in the Ezek37 context (this is NOT "after" they have died physically!).
I've also mentioned how I believe that what happened in Matt27 (re: "many") is a small snapshot of what will FUTURELY take place (just like I've pointed out that the "Transfiguration," for example, is a snapshot of "His Second Coming glory" [tho the circumstances actually took place at that time with those few disciples]), so perhaps you could better equate it with the "Isaiah 27:12-13/Matthew 24:29-31" thing that will take place at His Second Coming to the earth time-slot (where Isa27:12-13 is saying [at the "GREAT trumpet"] ..."[gathered] to worship the Lord in the holy mount AT JERUSALEM").
Daniel says MANY (Not All) just like Matthew does. I mentioned this in the other thread that Matthew is almost verbatim to Daniel.
Also have you not considered that Christ lead the captivity captive when he left? The captivity was the people in Abraham’s bosom.
Christ led them captive, in KJV English that means he took them WITH HIM
"the MARRIAGE" itself, yes (Rev19:7 says it is "aorist" / already taken place, and the context is indeed IN HEAVEN).
Not so regarding "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER," for the ONLY thing "aorist" about THAT is the "INVITATION" [to it] having been completed by this point in the chronology (Rev19:9). It doesn't say that the feast ITSELF has already taken place! That's where the Bridegroom (WITH His Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]) is now headed DOWN to, and where the "wedding FEAST" parable pick up the NEXT SCENE in the chronology (NO "BRIDE/WIFE" was mentioned in those parables; no lifting off the earth will be done involving those others being referred to in said parables).
The wedding FEAST/SUPPER *IS* the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom, and by COMPARING the passages I've listed before, one can see what all it involves (Lk22:30,16,18 / Matt19:28 [Matt25:31-34 for its TIMING, in relation to that last reference], Matt26:29 ['UNTIL THAT DAY"/"NEW ACCOMPANYING [G3326] YOU"]; Lk12:36-37,38,40-42 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding... " THEN the meal [G347, also in Matt8:11 and parallel... (Eph1:10 not in the "NOW")], etc...many, many more).
Not so regarding "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER," for the ONLY thing "aorist" about THAT is the "INVITATION" [to it] having been completed by this point in the chronology (Rev19:9). It doesn't say that the feast ITSELF has already taken place! That's where the Bridegroom (WITH His Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]) is now headed DOWN to, and where the "wedding FEAST" parable pick up the NEXT SCENE in the chronology (NO "BRIDE/WIFE" was mentioned in those parables; no lifting off the earth will be done involving those others being referred to in said parables).
The wedding FEAST/SUPPER *IS* the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom, and by COMPARING the passages I've listed before, one can see what all it involves (Lk22:30,16,18 / Matt19:28 [Matt25:31-34 for its TIMING, in relation to that last reference], Matt26:29 ['UNTIL THAT DAY"/"NEW ACCOMPANYING [G3326] YOU"]; Lk12:36-37,38,40-42 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding... " THEN the meal [G347, also in Matt8:11 and parallel... (Eph1:10 not in the "NOW")], etc...many, many more).
The phrase "the law and the prophets" speak of OT prophets (and this is that to which Acts 3:21 refers [see again that verse!]... the "amill-teachings" MISS the point Peter is making in this chpt b/c they LUMP TOGETHER the TWO *distinct* "RAISE" in that chpt! thus they misapply certain concepts... [see "a Prophet... like unto me [/Moses]" in v.22, etc (THIS "RAISE" was with regard to His earthly ministry BEFORE His death!)])
The phrase "apostles and prophets" speaks strictly of the NT apostles and prophets. They have as much authority (having been sent by God for a specific task) as the OT ones:
Eph 4 -
8Therefore it says:
“Having ascended on high,
He led captive captivity,
and gave gifts to men.”
[...]
11 And He gave some indeed to be apostles, and some prophets, and some evangelists, and some shepherds and teachers, 12 toward the perfecting of the saints for the work of ministry, for the building up of the body of Christ, 13 until we all may attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a complete man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, 14 so that no longer we might be infants, being tossed by waves and being carried about by every wind of teaching in the cunning, in the craftiness of men with a view to the scheming of deceit.
And so, this "gave" refers to AFTER He "ascended on high," as is the Ephesians 1:20-23 reference to "the Church which is His body" (and He as "HEAD" of it!)
What I hear you saying is that the NT "apostles and prophets" did not have authority to speak for God, as THAT ALL took place BEFORE His death and ascension / exaltation, am I understanding you correctly?
The phrase "apostles and prophets" speaks strictly of the NT apostles and prophets. They have as much authority (having been sent by God for a specific task) as the OT ones:
Eph 4 -
8Therefore it says:
“Having ascended on high,
He led captive captivity,
and gave gifts to men.”
[...]
11 And He gave some indeed to be apostles, and some prophets, and some evangelists, and some shepherds and teachers, 12 toward the perfecting of the saints for the work of ministry, for the building up of the body of Christ, 13 until we all may attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a complete man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, 14 so that no longer we might be infants, being tossed by waves and being carried about by every wind of teaching in the cunning, in the craftiness of men with a view to the scheming of deceit.
And so, this "gave" refers to AFTER He "ascended on high," as is the Ephesians 1:20-23 reference to "the Church which is His body" (and He as "HEAD" of it!)
What I hear you saying is that the NT "apostles and prophets" did not have authority to speak for God, as THAT ALL took place BEFORE His death and ascension / exaltation, am I understanding you correctly?
What you DIDN'T hear me say was that the NT apostle did not have authority to speak for God.
What you DID hear me say was that Christ came to FULFILL the law and the prophets - what the prophets prophesied about him. Those prophecies ENDED with John the Baptist.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Leading Captivity Captive
Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
"When he ascended on high, he led captivity captive".
When did he lead captivity captive?
What is "the captivity"?
Where were they taken captive?
What you DID hear me say was that Christ came to FULFILL the law and the prophets - what the prophets prophesied about him. Those prophecies ENDED with John the Baptist.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Leading Captivity Captive
Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
"When he ascended on high, he led captivity captive".
When did he lead captivity captive?
What is "the captivity"?
Where were they taken captive?
So what you are suggesting is that Jesus Himself was not "a Prophet... like unto me [/Moses]" in His earthly ministry BEFORE His death (like Acts 3:22 is saying, as elsewhere too), since He came "after [John the Baptist]"??... IOW, He said nothing that needed to be said, because "the law and the prophets" said all that needed to be said. [?] (See Acts 3:22-24, below)
Acts 3 -
21 whom indeed it behooves heaven to receive until the times of restoration of all things of which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from the age.
22 For Moses said, ‘The Lord your God will raise up to you a prophet like me out from your brothers. You will listen to Him in all things, as many as He might say to you. 23 And it will be that every soul who might not heed that prophet will be utterly destroyed out from the people.’
24 And also all the prophets from Samuel, and those subsequently, as many as have spoken, also have proclaimed these days. [speaking of the "His Servant Jesus" days... BEFORE His death; the aspect that they MISSED, thus themselves fulfilling the prophecies concerning His death]
Acts 3 -
21 whom indeed it behooves heaven to receive until the times of restoration of all things of which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from the age.
22 For Moses said, ‘The Lord your God will raise up to you a prophet like me out from your brothers. You will listen to Him in all things, as many as He might say to you. 23 And it will be that every soul who might not heed that prophet will be utterly destroyed out from the people.’
24 And also all the prophets from Samuel, and those subsequently, as many as have spoken, also have proclaimed these days. [speaking of the "His Servant Jesus" days... BEFORE His death; the aspect that they MISSED, thus themselves fulfilling the prophecies concerning His death]
Of course Jesus was "That Prophet".
A prophet isn't someone who foretells the future. A prophet is someone who speaks what God told them to say, whether it's related to something FUTURE or not.
Can you give an example of a New Testament prophecy that wasn't already spoken about in the Old Testament?
A prophet isn't someone who foretells the future. A prophet is someone who speaks what God told them to say, whether it's related to something FUTURE or not.
Can you give an example of a New Testament prophecy that wasn't already spoken about in the Old Testament?
"The church in the wilderness" [see the entire CONTEXT of Acts 7:37-43 ]
is not the same as the "church/assembly [same word!]" in Acts 19:32,39,41... (do you think so??)...
nor is it identical with "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (I keep imploring ppl to actually LOOK AT EPHESIANS 1:20-23!* WHEN )
[and these are also distinct from "the churchES" ]
*I keep pointing this fact out, because of its extreme importance to the topic under discussion.
____________
Acts 7 -
35 This Moses whom they rejected, having said, ‘Who appointed you ruler and judge?’—him whom God sent and as ruler and redeemer by the hand of the angel having appeared to him in the bush— 36 this one led them out, having done wonders and signs in the land of Egypt, and in the Red Sea, and in the wilderness forty years.
37 This is the Moses having said to the sons of Israel, ‘God will raise up for you a prophet like me out from your brothers.’ 38 This is the one having been in the congregation [/church/assembly] in the wilderness with the angel speaking to him in Mount Sinai, and who was with our fathers. He received living oracles to give to us, 39 to whom our fathers were not willing to be obedient, but thrust away, and turned back in their hearts to Egypt, 40 having said to Aaron, ‘Make us gods who will go before us. As for this Moses who brought us out from the land of Egypt, we do not know what has happened to him.’
41 And in those days they made a calf and offered a sacrifice to the idol and were rejoicing in the works of their hands. 42 But God turned away and delivered them to worship the host of heaven, as it has been written in the book of the prophets:
‘Did you offer slain beasts and sacrifices to Me
forty years in the wilderness,
O house of Israel?
43 And you took up the tabernacle of Moloch
and the star of your god Rephan,
the images that you made to worship them;
and I will remove you
beyond Babylon.’
]is not the same as the "church/assembly [same word!]" in Acts 19:32,39,41... (do you think so??)...
nor is it identical with "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (I keep imploring ppl to actually LOOK AT EPHESIANS 1:20-23!* WHEN )
[and these are also distinct from "the churchES"
]*I keep pointing this fact out, because of its extreme importance to the topic under discussion.
____________
Acts 7 -
35 This Moses whom they rejected, having said, ‘Who appointed you ruler and judge?’—him whom God sent and as ruler and redeemer by the hand of the angel having appeared to him in the bush— 36 this one led them out, having done wonders and signs in the land of Egypt, and in the Red Sea, and in the wilderness forty years.
37 This is the Moses having said to the sons of Israel, ‘God will raise up for you a prophet like me out from your brothers.’ 38 This is the one having been in the congregation [/church/assembly] in the wilderness with the angel speaking to him in Mount Sinai, and who was with our fathers. He received living oracles to give to us, 39 to whom our fathers were not willing to be obedient, but thrust away, and turned back in their hearts to Egypt, 40 having said to Aaron, ‘Make us gods who will go before us. As for this Moses who brought us out from the land of Egypt, we do not know what has happened to him.’
41 And in those days they made a calf and offered a sacrifice to the idol and were rejoicing in the works of their hands. 42 But God turned away and delivered them to worship the host of heaven, as it has been written in the book of the prophets:
‘Did you offer slain beasts and sacrifices to Me
forty years in the wilderness,
O house of Israel?
43 And you took up the tabernacle of Moloch
and the star of your god Rephan,
the images that you made to worship them;
and I will remove you
beyond Babylon.’
Psa 139:16 (KJV) Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.
I’m not posting this to discuss yet, I just want to know if you can see that this is talking about the body of Christ... not his literal body, although I believe that does apply too, but I mean his body of believers that were ALL written down in Gods book of life.
No problem if you don’t see it, then I’ll go another route.
I’m not posting this to discuss yet, I just want to know if you can see that this is talking about the body of Christ... not his literal body, although I believe that does apply too, but I mean his body of believers that were ALL written down in Gods book of life.
No problem if you don’t see it, then I’ll go another route.
-
2
- Show all
